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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:37 am
by Judge Roy Bean
notorial dissent wrote:...I have said it before and I will say it again, Kurt’s ego was his undoing. That and just being generally inept to start with. It really doesn’t matter how much you believe in yourself if you are just plain incompetent to start with...
I agree there is an ego factor, particularly given the religious dogma and martyrdom aspects.
But I discount the idea that he was incompetent. IMHO, they could have gotten away with millions and spent their lives comfortably somewhere outside the US if they had pulled the plug at the right time or hadn't had an attorney who couldn't buy them time.
In the long view of things, I think they failed to manage the timing of the Kenney and related cases. Apparently they felt the pressure from the marketing arm to prosecute those cases to give the agents some visible evidence that they would indeed step up and argue in court that the scheme was legal. Unfortunately for them, things moved too quickly.
I still believe a rather typical business mistake in marketing timing precipitated their loss of a life of liesure. At that nexus, every week the program could still be marketed could mean tens, maybe hundreds of thousands put away off shore for a new life.
But the Kenney case apparently didn't take anywhere near as long as they thought it would and the ugly ruling diminished sales much more rapidly than they had expected.
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:18 am
by neodemes
Not to mention, the marketing arm(s) made the error of attempting to hawk their program on certain forums where they ought not to have messed around, and too often became cantankerous in the process.
That wasn't a wise move.
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:32 am
by notorial dissent
Judge, I agree with you for the most part on all of that you say. The ineptitude and incompetence I am speaking of is them not keeping a closer hand on what was happening, and in not letting their (Kurt's)egos get ahead of them. Had they kept a lid on things and muzzled the likes of Flea and most certainly stayed out of court they could have carried it on a good deal longer, and probably gotten out of it before the roof fell in. As it was, Kurt had to show off, or else just completely lost control, I have never decided which, and they found numbnutz Spielbauer to go into court for them, and from there the conclusion was foregone. They should have known at that point that it was falling in.
Has anyone actually heard how much they actually grossed altogether? Since I find it hard to believe they actually managed to con 5,000 people for even the first run of the scheme it is hard to even guess how much they actually got away with. I've never heard or seen a figure for what they supposedly transfered or had transfered to Latvia. Not that they will ever see a dime of it. Comes of one set of crooks trustng another. I would be willing to bet that Dougy has already gone through whatever they sent him and is lying low getting ready for his next scam attempt.
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:18 am
by neodemes
notorial dissent wrote:I find it hard to believe they actually managed to con 5,000 people for even the first run of the scheme
The longer and I live and the more I see, the more convinced I am that stupidity is truly boundless.
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:12 am
by Demosthenes
If it hadn't been for Flea peddling his garbage on Suijuris, I would never have heard of Dorean.
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:34 am
by Nikki
Demosthenes wrote:If it hadn't been for Flea peddling his garbage on Suijuris, I would never have heard of Dorean.
I believe that's the Internet equivalent of "suicide by cop."
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:01 pm
by nobodyknows
Neo wrote:
See my personal quote below. I am not the author of it, merely a true believer.
_________________
The 82% Rule: 82% of the people in the world are total idiots, 13% have a vague idea of what is going on and 5% are truly aware.
I don't think it's a matter of people in this case being total idiots (although I am not denying that your personal quote is not correct). But I think in the Dorean client instance, it's more a case of people being desperate, or simply looking for an easy way out.
[/quote]
Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:15 pm
by notorial dissent
CaptainKickback wrote:neodemes wrote:notorial dissent wrote:I find it hard to believe they actually managed to con 5,000 people for even the first run of the scheme
The longer and I live and the more I see, the more convinced I am that stupidity is truly boundless.
See my personal quote below. I am not the author of it, merely a true believer.
I don't disagree with any of the above, I just have my doubts that they were actually able to get the 5,000 suckers they claimed, they lied about everything else, I see no reason for them to start a new trend otherwise. I'm just curious as to how many they actually managed to get the first $3k out of. I firmly believe that they would have gone after as many as they could con, I just don't think they were as good at it as they claimed.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:16 am
by Judge Roy Bean
I think the real numbers are closer to under a thousand paid clients. I don't believe it's come out at trial, but it's pretty safe to guess the FBI knows and may include the data in a post-conviction press release.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:50 am
by Pauligirl
The FBI is continuing to investigate more than 480 properties throughout 35 states with a potential value of $88 million in loans that may have been affected by this alleged scheme. The FBI is investigating properties in 19 California counties affected by this alleged scheme," according to the U.S. Attorney's Office announcement.....
.
.............Earlier court filings by the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Northern District of California stated that the Dorean Group's operators "are continuously alienating or disposing of funds they have obtained as a result of...fraudulent practices," and there are reports that $2.8 million was deposited into one Dorean Group bank account over the course of a year, with at least $230,000 wired to a bank account in Latvia. FBI officials have raided Dorean Group offices on more than one occasion, seizing documents and freezing bank accounts.
Friday, September 23, 2005
By Glenn Roberts Jr.
Inman News
I don't know is there is a more up-to-date figure or not.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:18 am
by notorial dissent
Pauligirl, thanks for the update. My bet would have been on a thousand ±. It sounds like the majority of victims were in CA, no surprise there. I know that there were a handful in FL and NC, also MT, WI, MN, and a handful in CO that I have heard of. I had thought there were some cases in NY, but haven't heard anything since on them if there were.
At that rate, at $3K per that only makes their initial take in the $3M range, less the broker commission, so that is about $1.5, and since only a handful ever made it to actual full bank fraud and handing part of the proceeds over to the dim duo, it looks like their take may not have been more than $2M if that. A couple of their local disciples did better than that before they finally got caught according to a recent story. The loss value, I’m betting will post in at closer to $100M by the time it is all over with though since I don’t think they have them all accounted for yet.
Addendum to the above.
I found a 2005 news article from the Sac Bee that quotes the FBI as saying Dorean ran $2.8M through one of their accounts in a years time and got about $230K sent off to Latvia, which all in all doesn’t make it look all that lucrative for the dim duo, particularly since they both lost their homes in the deal. You’d have thought they would have skimmed enough to have at least paid off their own mortgages, but then that goes back to something I said about being smart too.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:46 pm
by nobodyknows
FYI, Kurt did not "own" a home. When he started Dorean, he was renting a glorified trailer and was "married" to his second "wife".
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:11 pm
by Demosthenes
When I was first poking my nose in this scam, I did a Lexis search on property records to see how many homes listed at least one of the dim duo as trustees. I'll see if I can dig up those numbers.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:30 pm
by Judge Roy Bean
The real windfalls (the second-round mortgages) didn't come through. Unlike the few thousand in fees they may have split with the dealers, the proceeds from the mortgages that were going to be taken out on the "free and clear" properties were going to be split with Dorean. Even if we assume the average re-mortgage might have been only $100K, a thousand of those at $50K each for the duo would be a tidy sum.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:42 pm
by nobodyknows
I was under the impression, and thought they even got it on the record during trial, that there were a few that actually did get the second "windfall" as you put it, and split the money. In one case, someone wired the money directly to Latvia.
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:52 pm
by notorial dissent
Judge, too true, unfortunately for dum and dummer, I don't think they had more than a handful that ever made it all the way. As I remember, I think it was like 5 or 6 at most, certainly not many more than that from the financial evidence presented.
It was a beautiful scheme, and if it had been handled properly, and the idiots muzzled, it might have lasted long enough to actually produce some real money. The problem, is that with refi's and the like, time is running against you. With a hot market like they had at the time the volume of paperwork might have disguised what they were doing long enough for them to have gotten out in time, but all it took was getting caught, or going to court, and then everyone started looking and down it all came.
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:45 am
by notorial dissent
It appears that the defense presented its case and rested on Wed and that the court will then be hearing closing arguments on the 13th.
They supposedly called a Dr Larry Bates as their expert witness. As I remember, he is basically a banking version of their tame CPA, anyone have anything on his real credentials?
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:58 am
by Nikki
This Dr Larry Bates?
Dr. Bates is a former bank CEO who taught for the Banking Administration Institute and the state college system of Tennessee. He is also a former member of the Tennessee House of Representatives, where he was Chairman of the Committee on Banking and Commerce.
Best-selling author of the book The New Economic Disorder, Dr. Bates is the publisher and editor of the Monetary and Economic Review, a quarterly economic and financial publication that analyzes the economy and financial markets from a geopolitical perspective. He is also the publisher and editor of Unravelling the New World Order, a monthly newsletter. These publications have subscribers in all 50 states and twelve foreign countries.
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:00 pm
by Demosthenes
Here's how he's touted:
a former 3-term U.S. Congressman, Bank Owner & CEO, best-selling author, veteran newsman, economist and a nationally-recognized authority on geopolitical systems.
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:04 pm
by Demosthenes
For the record, Bates was never a member of the US House of Representatives. He was a state of Tennesse rep in the 1970s where he ran as a Democrat.
He's also a colloidal silver, the world is going to end asap nut.
http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1511