Flawed Logic

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SteveSy

Flawed Logic

Post by SteveSy »

Famspear wrote:Simple common sense does tell us, however, that if you were right, you would be able to find tons of case law where a person argued that a "general income tax" was a "direct tax" AND the court ruled in that person's favor ON THAT POINT.
The Supreme Court has never ruled on the matter concerning the average wage earner in its entire existence. Just because those appointed by those trying to take the money won't agree doesn't make your position valid. Take any country where the judiciary is appointed by the government and show me where they side with the citizen on something equivalent to the mass extortion waged by our government.

Your argument is akin to saying show me where any cigarette company stated their cigarettes where addicting and hazardous to your health back in the 60's. I mean golly gee they had tons of accredited professionals researching the matter, surely they would have said so if it were so. Certainly they weren't all corrupt!

One other challenge for you....
Show where any country in the world, that makes a distinction between direct and indirect taxes, classifies a general income tax as an indirect tax. You won't find any, kind of strange considering we adopted our founding basics of law from foreign nations.

Let me guess, that doesn't matter right? I guess we founded this nation with a majority being British citizens and we redefined "direct taxes" and "indirect taxes" to include or exclude things never before in history included or excluded without ever mentioning it....lol

I know, I know...our system is based on the federal courts blah, blah blah....who gives a crap, I don't. If they can't back up their BS then it's BS plain and simple. Yes, they can hurt me...so what, that's doesn't make them right.
jg
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by jg »

SteveSy wrote: ...The Supreme Court has never ruled on the matter concerning the average wage earner in its entire existence. ...
Steve, please read the decision at http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/g ... &invol=586 wherein the Supreme Court first decided that the income tax is an indirect tax (including on earnings).

OK, now you can start weaseling about how Springer was not "average", and why that case does not apply to your wages, and how attornies have some sort of license, or how employments does not means employments, or how some circuits describe the tax as direct and others call it indirect, and so on...

There are literally millions of points of law that the Supreme Court has never ruled on; but -Guess what? : unless and until they do (or a lower court grants some sort of stay or injuction) those points will stand as the law, like it or not.

Your stubborness or inability to understand that wages and compensation of the average, above average and below average individual earner is subject to income tax, without any consitutional issue, does not mean that there is an issue.
“Where there is an income tax, the just man will pay more and the unjust less on the same amount of income.” — Plato
Joey Smith
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by Joey Smith »

The Supreme Court has never ruled on the matter concerning the average wage earner in its entire existence.
Except of course in all those cases where the Supreme Court has allowed the convictions of tax protestors to stand.
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SteveSy

Re: Flawed Logic

Post by SteveSy »

jg wrote:
SteveSy wrote: ...The Supreme Court has never ruled on the matter concerning the average wage earner in its entire existence. ...
Steve, please read the decision at http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/g ... &invol=586 wherein the Supreme Court first decided that the income tax is an indirect tax (including on earnings).

OK, now you can start weaseling about how Springer was not "average", and why that case does not apply to your wages, and how attornies have some sort of license, or how employments does not means employments, or how some circuits describe the tax as direct and others call it indirect, and so on...

There are literally millions of points of law that the Supreme Court has never ruled on; but -Guess what? : unless and until they do (or a lower court grants some sort of stay or injuction) those points will stand as the law, like it or not.

Your stubborness or inability to understand that wages and compensation of the average, above average and below average individual earner is subject to income tax, without any consitutional issue, does not mean that there is an issue.
I can't get the link to work....maybe I need a subscription or something. In any case we've been through this a zillion times, there is no case I haven't seen.

The only thing this group gets right every time is you will not win in federal court unless you're extremely lucky, on the level of winning the loto. You will still have to pay. There is no secret wording, no secret wording to tell the IRS, a way to fill out your W4, tax return whatever, you will lose its a guarantee if you're fighting them. That doesn't make them right, they want their money and they're going to get it one way or another.
Last edited by SteveSy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quixote
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by Quixote »

The Supreme Court has never ruled on the matter concerning the average wage earner in its entire existence.
Still haven't read Brushaber, huh? If you had, you would remember that, due to the nature of Brushaber's suit, the Court had to determine that all aspects of the 1913 act were constitutional. If any portion of the statute, for example the inclusion of wage income in gross income, had been found unconstitutional, Brushaber would have been entitled to relief on that issue.
Show where any country in the world, that makes a distinction between direct and indirect taxes, classifies a general income tax as an indirect tax.
Except in the one country that matters, the United States, in which direct taxes are limited to capitations (in the limited sense of that word as used in the United States) and taxes on property.
"Here is a fundamental question to ask yourself- what is the goal of the income tax scam? I think it is a means to extract wealth from the masses and give it to a parasite class." Skankbeat
SteveSy

Re: Flawed Logic

Post by SteveSy »

Quixote wrote:Except in the one country that matters, the United States, in which direct taxes are limited to capitations (in the limited sense of that word as used in the United States) and taxes on property.

A general income tax is a capitation tax...duh.

btw, I had to take a sabbatical...I got in to my salt water fish aquarium...the research is far less stressful and the results a lot more fulfilling. :)
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by The Observer »

SteveSy wrote:btw, I had to take a sabbatical...I got in to my salt water fish aquarium...the research is far less stressful and the results a lot more fulfilling. :)
Given the fact that your sabbatical was several months, either that tank was very big and comfortable, or you just enjoy swimming in cramped places.
"I could be dead wrong on this" - Irwin Schiff

"Do you realize I may even be delusional with respect to my income tax beliefs? " - Irwin Schiff
Demosthenes
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by Demosthenes »

I got in to my salt water fish aquarium
Hey, that's my hobby. Got any interesting frags?
Demo.
Famspear
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by Famspear »

SteveSy wrote:
Famspear wrote:Simple common sense does tell us, however, that if you were right, you would be able to find tons of case law where a person argued that a "general income tax" was a "direct tax" AND the court ruled in that person's favor ON THAT POINT.
The Supreme Court has never ruled on the matter concerning the average wage earner in its entire existence. Just because those appointed by those trying to take the money won't agree doesn't make your position valid. Take any country where the judiciary is appointed by the government and show me where they side with the citizen on something equivalent to the mass extortion waged by our government.

Your argument is akin to saying show me where any cigarette company stated their cigarettes where addicting and hazardous to your health back in the 60's. I mean golly gee they had tons of accredited professionals researching the matter, surely they would have said so if it were so. Certainly they weren't all corrupt!
No, your logic is flawed, Steve.

Yes, you are correct that the United States Supreme Court has never specifically ruled on the matter concerning the average wage earner. So what?

The Supreme Court has, however, ruled that the federal income tax on the income of an individual is an indirect tax, not a direct tax, and therefore is not required to be apportioned. Wages are an example of compensation for personal services of an individual. Go find a court case where any federal court -- Supreme Court or otherwise -- has ever ruled that wages of an ordinary individual cannot be taxed. (Fool's errand.)

And don't even think about wasting our time with the preposterous argument that some rule or another is not "the law" until and unless the U.S. Supreme Court rules on it. Indeed, the vast majority of rules of law have never been ruled upon by the United States Supreme Court, and the vast majority of rules of law will never be ruled upon by the Supreme Court.

Tons of federal courts have ruled that wages of an ordinary individual are taxable. And, in the only tax protester case ever to reach the United States Supreme Court, the dissenting opinion (of all things) reads in part as follows (Justice Blackmun):
It seems to me that we are concerned in this case not with "the complexity of the tax laws," ante, at 200, but with the income tax law in its most elementary and basic aspect: Is a wage earner a taxpayer and are wages income? [ . . . ] [It] is incomprehensible to me how, in this day, more than 70 years after the institution of our present federal income tax system with the passage of the Revenue Act of 1913, 38 Stat. 166, any taxpayer of competent mentality can assert as his defense to charges of statutory willfulness the proposition that the wage he receives for his labor is not income, irrespective of a cult that says otherwise and advises the gullible to resist income tax collections. One might note in passing that this particular taxpayer, after all, was a licensed pilot for one of our major commercial airlines; he presumably was a person of at least minimum intellectual competence.
--Cheek v. United States, 498 U.S. 192, 111 S. Ct. 604, 91-1 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) P50,012; 67 A.F.T.R.2d (RIA) (1991).

No, this was not a ruling by the Court. What Justice Blackmun was dissenting on was the ruling by the Court that John Cheek's tax evasion conviction was being throw out because of an error in the trial court's instruction to the jury.

The case went back to the trial court, and John Cheek was convicted. The conviction was upheld on appeal and, finally, after Mr. Cheek filed another petition with the Supreme Court, the United States Supreme Court let Cheek's conviction stand. See United States v. Cheek, 3 F.3d 1057, 93-2 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 50,473 (7th Cir. 1993), cert. denied, 510 U.S. 1112, 114 S. Ct. 1055 (1994). As a result, Mr. Cheek served his prison time and was released.

Unfortunately, a "wage" is a example of compensation for personal services of an individual.

And if the Court ever were to take up the frivolous (but more specific) argument that the federal income tax on the "wage" of an ordinary worker is somehow unconstitutional, the Court would rule exactly the way you and I both know it would rule. Consider this, from the majority opinion of the Supreme Court in Cheek, where the income of Mr. Cheek did indeed constitute the wage or salary of an ordinary worker:
Claims that some of the provisions of the tax code are unconstitutional are submissions of a different order. They do not arise from innocent mistakes caused by the complexity of the Internal Revenue Code. Rather, they reveal full knowledge of the provisions at issue and a studied conclusion, however wrong, that those provisions are invalid and unenforceable. Thus, in this case, Cheek paid his taxes for years, but after attending various seminars and based on his own study, he concluded that the income tax laws could not constitutionally require him to pay a tax.

We do not believe that Congress contemplated that such a taxpayer, without risking criminal prosecution, could ignore the duties imposed upon him by the Internal Revenue Code and refuse to utilize the mechanisms provided by Congress to present his claims of invalidity to the courts and to abide by their decisions. There is no doubt that Cheek, from year to year, was free to pay the tax that the law purported to require, file for a refund and, if denied, present his claims of invalidity, constitutional or otherwise, to the courts. See 26 U.S.C. 7422. Also, without paying the tax, he could have challenged claims of tax deficiencies in the Tax Court, 6213, with the right to appeal to a higher court if unsuccessful. 7482(a)(1). Cheek took neither course in some years, and, when he did, was unwilling to accept the outcome. As we see it, he is in no position to claim that his good-faith belief about the validity of the Internal Revenue Code negates willfulness or provides a defense to criminal prosecution under 7201 and 7203. Of course, Cheek was free in this very case to present his claims of invalidity and have them adjudicated, but, like defendants in criminal cases in other contexts who "willfully" refuse to comply with the duties placed upon them by the law, he must take the risk of being wrong.
--Cheek, 498 U.S. at 205-206 (footnote omitted; emphasis added).
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Quixote
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by Quixote »

A general income tax is a capitation tax...duh.
No, a general income tax is a tax on income. A capitation is a tax on people.
"Here is a fundamental question to ask yourself- what is the goal of the income tax scam? I think it is a means to extract wealth from the masses and give it to a parasite class." Skankbeat
SteveSy

Re: Flawed Logic

Post by SteveSy »

Demosthenes wrote:
I got in to my salt water fish aquarium
Hey, that's my hobby. Got any interesting frags?

The Blue pulsing Xenia is pretty cool. It's about 18" now, looks like a living tree.
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by Cpt Banjo »

SteveSy wrote:The Supreme Court has never ruled on the matter concerning the average wage earner in its entire existence.
They have never ruled on whether left-handed plumbers named Cowznofski who live in Montana and who earn wages from the Potrzebie Plumbing Company are subject to the income tax. That doesn't mean, however, that the taxability of such a person is an open issue.

There is absolutely nothing in the text of the Constitution (pre or post 16th Amendment) or in any caselaw that warrants making a distinction between taxing the income of "average wage earners" and taxing other types of personal-service income.

Moreover, even though you think the Big Bad Supreme Court got it all wrong in determining what a direct tax is and that Adam Smith, Albert Gallatin, and the Framers are all spinning in their graves, the fact remains that the 16th Amendment was ratified and that it does mean what it says. A tax on income doesn't need to be apportioned, period. So the only possible difference it might make whether an income tax is direct or indirect is if it weren't geographically uniform. Whenever that becomes an issue, come back to discuss it. Otherwise, it's a moot point.
Just because those appointed by those trying to take the money won't agree doesn't make your position valid.
It makes it legally valid because the courts, and not Stevie, determine what the law is.

By the way, the Supreme Court has ruled that a general income tax isn't a capitation, so quit making the same tired argument that was rejected in Springer.
Last edited by Cpt Banjo on Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Dr. Caligari
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by Dr. Caligari »

SteveSy wrote:The only thing this group gets right every time is you will not win in federal court unless you're extremely lucky, on the level of winning the loto. You will still have to pay. There is no secret wording, no secret wording to tell the IRS, a way to fill out your W4, tax return whatever, you will lose its a guarantee if you're fighting them. That doesn't make them right, they want their money and they're going to get it one way or another.
Steve, then you have effectively conceded the argument. "Law" is not like natural science, where Galileo could be "right" even though a court proclaimed him "wrong." Law is what the authoritative institutions in a society (in ours, the Congress and the federal courts) say it is. If the federal courts all say that a private wage earner owes taxes on his earnings, then that is the law. You may argue that it is unjust, immoral, and contrary to what Thomas Jedfferson would have wanted, but it is still the law. Period.

I believe I quoted this to you once:


Oliver Wendell Holmes in [i]The Path of the Law[/i] wrote:I wish, if I can, to lay down some first principles for the study of this body of dogma or systematized prediction which we call the law, for men who want to use it as the instrument of their business to enable them to prophesy in their turn, and, as bearing upon the study, I wish to point out an ideal which as yet our law has not attained.

The first thing for a businesslike understanding of the matter is to understand its limits, and therefore I think it desirable at once to point out and dispel a confusion between morality and law, which sometimes rises to the height of conscious theory, and more often and indeed constantly is making trouble in detail without reaching the point of consciousness. You can see very plainly that a bad man has as much reason as a good one for wishing to avoid an encounter with the public force, and therefore you can see the practical importance of the distinction between morality and law. A man who cares nothing for an ethical rule which is believed and practised by his neighbors is likely nevertheless to care a good deal to avoid being made to pay money, and will want to keep out of jail if he can.

.....

The confusion with which I am dealing besets confessedly legal conceptions. Take the fundamental question, What constitutes the law? You will find some text writers telling you that it is something different from what is decided by the courts of Massachusetts or England, that it is a system of reason, that it is a deduction from principles of ethics or admitted axioms or what not, which may or may not coincide with the decisions. But if we take the view of our friend the bad man we shall find that he does not care two straws for the axioms or deductions, but that he does want to know what the Massachusetts or English courts are likely to do in fact. I am much of this mind. The prophecies of what the courts will do in fact, and nothing more pretentious, are what I mean by the law.
Dr. Caligari
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SteveSy

Re: Flawed Logic

Post by SteveSy »

Cpt Banjo wrote:It makes it legally valid because the courts, and not Stevie, determine what the law is.
I'll agree that you'll lose...if that fits the above then so be it.

It's so obvious to me the lower courts are wrong its pitiful...I think anyone really researching the matter would have no choice but to agree. But, it doesn't matter they control the system.
SteveSy

Re: Flawed Logic

Post by SteveSy »

Dr. Caligari wrote:Oliver Wendell Holmes
Do you even think I care what that retard egomaniac, narcissistic bastard said Dr.? You know I believe he is one of the main reasons our system has failed. He put himself on the level of a deity, claiming he has the ability to find crap that doesn't even exist and we should all accept it as the divine word.

He is the bad man...he took it upon himself to decide law, not because it was there but because he decided it was there. The irony in his diatribe is sickening.
Last edited by SteveSy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Famspear
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by Famspear »

SteveSy wrote:
Quixote wrote:Except in the one country that matters, the United States, in which direct taxes are limited to capitations (in the limited sense of that word as used in the United States) and taxes on property.

A general income tax is a capitation tax...duh.

btw, I had to take a sabbatical...I got in to my salt water fish aquarium...the research is far less stressful and the results a lot more fulfilling. :)
No, Steve, a general income tax is not a "capitation." A general income tax is an indirect tax, an excise. Direct taxes consist only of property taxes by reason of ownership, and capitations. As has already been pointed out, a capitation is a head tax. Ten dollars per head, for example. A head tax is not an income tax.

More to the point, it matters not whether a general income tax is a direct tax or an indirect tax. It also does not matter whether you call the general income tax a "capitation." Even if the income tax were somehow called a "capitation" (or more precisely, called a "SteveSy Delusional I Don't Like the Income Tax Law So I Think I'll Call the Income Tax a Capitation and Maybe That Will Somehow Work Some Day" Capitation) the Congress would still have the constitutional power impose that income tax -- on any kind of income whatsoever, from any source whatever, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
Demosthenes
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by Demosthenes »

SteveSy wrote:The Blue pulsing Xenia is pretty cool. It's about 18" now, looks like a living tree.
How old is your tank?
Demo.
Dr. Caligari
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by Dr. Caligari »

Do you even think I care what that retard egomaniac, narcissistic bastard said Dr.?
Well, he was on the Supreme Court...
Dr. Caligari
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jg
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by jg »

It really is great to have you posting here again, Steve !
“Where there is an income tax, the just man will pay more and the unjust less on the same amount of income.” — Plato
SteveSy

Re: Flawed Logic

Post by SteveSy »

Demosthenes wrote:
SteveSy wrote:The Blue pulsing Xenia is pretty cool. It's about 18" now, looks like a living tree.
How old is your tank?
Still pretty new...about oh, 4 or 5 months. As long as I've been gone I guess.