Flawed Logic

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Dr. Caligari
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by Dr. Caligari »

SteveSy wrote:Show where any country in the world, that makes a distinction between direct and indirect taxes, classifies a general income tax as an indirect tax. You won't find any, kind of strange considering we adopted our founding basics of law from foreign nations.

Let me guess, that doesn't matter right? I guess we founded this nation with a majority being British citizens and we redefined "direct taxes" and "indirect taxes" to include or exclude things never before in history included or excluded without ever mentioning it....lol
Assuming you were right-- and no one, ever, in the history of the United States ever concluded that an income tax on private earnings was a "direct tax" (even the Court in Pollack thought it could be sustained as an excise)-- so what? The 16th Amendment says that Congress can tax incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment. So if there is some rule that income taxes must be excises, and that income taxes were previously considered direct, then the 16th Amendment must have redefined the word excise. Otherwise, what else do the words of the 16th Amendment mean?

Even if I accepted your premises about the intent of the authors of the original, unamended, Constitution (and I don't), so what? The 16th Amendment is in the Constitution now. How is that not game over for your theory?
Dr. Caligari
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SteveSy

Re: Flawed Logic

Post by SteveSy »

jg wrote:It really is great to have you posting here again, Steve !
lol...facetious is all I can say. Don't worry I won't be here long...stir the pot is all. I thought I would have some fun with my old adversaries. I get to many gray hairs if I stick around to long...don't have many natural one's left. :(
SteveSy

Re: Flawed Logic

Post by SteveSy »

Dr. Caligari wrote:
SteveSy wrote:Show where any country in the world, that makes a distinction between direct and indirect taxes, classifies a general income tax as an indirect tax. You won't find any, kind of strange considering we adopted our founding basics of law from foreign nations.

Let me guess, that doesn't matter right? I guess we founded this nation with a majority being British citizens and we redefined "direct taxes" and "indirect taxes" to include or exclude things never before in history included or excluded without ever mentioning it....lol
Assuming you were right-- and no one, ever, in the history of the United States ever concluded that an income tax on private earnings was a "direct tax" (even the Court in Pollack thought it could be sustained as an excise)-- so what? The 16th Amendment says that Congress can tax incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment. So if there is some rule that income taxes must be excises, and that income taxes were previously considered direct, then the 16th Amendment must have redefined the word excise. Otherwise, what else do the words of the 16th Amendment mean?

Even if I accepted your premises about the intent of the authors of the original, unamended, Constitution (and I don't), so what? The 16th Amendment is in the Constitution now. How is that not game over for your theory?
You have a point Dr...

But, I accept the premise that the 16th only changed the constitution as far as it related to Pollock, the supreme court said so in so many words and so did congress via a message from Taft, hence Flint v. Stone. Pollock was about taxing the earnings of a corporation engaged in renting and or leasing property. The corporation was a creature of law, it could not exist without it. People in general exist without the benefit of law. I'm sure that's where the 14th amendment argument comes in, I personally don't subscribe to it.
Last edited by SteveSy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Imalawman
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by Imalawman »

SteveSy wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
SteveSy wrote:The Blue pulsing Xenia is pretty cool. It's about 18" now, looks like a living tree.
How old is your tank?
Still pretty new...about oh, 4 or 5 months. As long as I've been gone I guess.
Ahem...thread topic hijacking? (sound interesting, perhaps a thread is warranted somewhere else?)
"Some people are like Slinkies ... not really good for anything, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down the stairs" - Unknown
SteveSy

Re: Flawed Logic

Post by SteveSy »

Imalawman wrote:Ahem...thread topic hijacking? (sound interesting, perhaps a thread is warranted somewhere else?)
Demo hijacking...NEVER! She is the queen! Blasphemy!
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grixit
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by grixit »

SteveSy wrote:
btw, I had to take a sabbatical...I got in to my salt water fish aquarium...the research is far less stressful and the results a lot more fulfilling. :)
Is it true that saltwater fish sometimes die if you look at them too hard?
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Dr. Caligari
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by Dr. Caligari »

But, I accept the premise that the 16th on;y changed the constitution as far as it related to Pollock. Pollock was about taxing the earnings of a corporation engaged in renting and or leasing property. The corporation was a creature of law, it could not exist without it. People in general exist without the benefit of law.
The Corporation Excise Tax of 1909 had already been upheld by the Supreme Court (in Flint v. Stone Tracy [1911]), well before the 16th Amendment was ratified. So what would be the point of ratrifying the 16th Amendment if it applied only to corporations? Besides, if the 16th was intended to authorize a tax only on corporations, why didn't it mention corporations, and why did it instead use the incredibly expansive words "incomes from whatever source derived"?

I enjoy bantering with you, Steve-- really-- but isn't it your logic that's "flawed" here?
Dr. Caligari
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Nikki

Re: Flawed Logic

Post by Nikki »

SteveSy wrote:
Dr. Caligari wrote:Oliver Wendell Holmes
Do you even think I care what that retard egomaniac, narcissistic bastard said Dr.? You know I believe he is one of the main reasons our system has failed. He put himself on the level of a deity, claiming he has the ability to find crap that doesn't even exist and we should all accept it as the divine word.

He is the bad man...he took it upon himself to decide law, not because it was there but because he decided it was there. The irony in his diatribe is sickening.
And exactly how does that differ from a bunch of white supremacist, screw-anybody-who-doesn't-own-land guys deciding on their own what the laws should be?
SteveSy

Re: Flawed Logic

Post by SteveSy »

Dr. Caligari wrote:
But, I accept the premise that the 16th on;y changed the constitution as far as it related to Pollock. Pollock was about taxing the earnings of a corporation engaged in renting and or leasing property. The corporation was a creature of law, it could not exist without it. People in general exist without the benefit of law.
The Corporation Excise Tax of 1909 had already been upheld by the Supreme Court before the 16th Amendment was ratified. So the 16th Amendment had to apply to others than just corporations. Besides, if the 16th was intended to authorize a tax only on corporations, why did they use the words "incomes from whatever source derived"?

I enjoy bantering with you, Steve-- really-- but isn't it your logic that's flawed here?
Well, I think the 16th applies to everything but the general population. The 16th went through several renditions one of which included the words "direct". That was rejected. It's clear from the record that the Pollock decision excluded all income taxes even those clearly falling under the head of excises. Even cases involving corporations engaged in profit, again they are creatures of law, they could not exist without it.

Congress needed a solution so the 16th was created. The congressional record and several Supreme Court cases make it clear the constitution was only changed enough to accommodate business activity, activity such as described in Pollock. The 16th was to do away with Pollock and the reasoning behind it, the source of income being the determining factor. In that case it was land. Businesses using State or federal privileges needed to be taxed, it was their means of existence to make profit. It was never intended to lay a blanket income tax on the general populous. Of course that's a matter of debate here.

Anyway, you know my position. I've supported it with many quotes from the congressional record and from the Supreme Court. Granted, you and this group have not agreed nor accepted on my conclusions.
SteveSy

Re: Flawed Logic

Post by SteveSy »

Nikki wrote:
SteveSy wrote:
Dr. Caligari wrote:Oliver Wendell Holmes
Do you even think I care what that retard egomaniac, narcissistic bastard said Dr.? You know I believe he is one of the main reasons our system has failed. He put himself on the level of a deity, claiming he has the ability to find crap that doesn't even exist and we should all accept it as the divine word.

He is the bad man...he took it upon himself to decide law, not because it was there but because he decided it was there. The irony in his diatribe is sickening.
And exactly how does that differ from a bunch of white supremacist, screw-anybody-who-doesn't-own-land guys deciding on their own what the laws should be?
I dunno...personally I would equate Holmes with everything you listed.
natty

Re: Flawed Logic

Post by natty »

SteveSy wrote:
Dr. Caligari wrote:Oliver Wendell Holmes
Do you even think I care what that retard egomaniac, narcissistic bastard said Dr.? You know I believe he is one of the main reasons our system has failed. He put himself on the level of a deity, claiming he has the ability to find crap that doesn't even exist and we should all accept it as the divine word.

He is the bad man...he took it upon himself to decide law, not because it was there but because he decided it was there. The irony in his diatribe is sickening.
You can't even get Holmes correct, stevesy.

Anyone who believed that the Law was absolute and that the Law could be known absolutely-like you do, stevesy- would be the deity. Of course, you are deluded.
fortinbras
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by fortinbras »

I wouldn't require "tons of cases". I'd settle for a single clear holding from a high enough court.

In any case, whether or not the federal income tax is "direct" or "indirect", it is specifically permitted by the 16th Amendment, so even if other taxes of the same category are forbidden, the income tax is expressly allowed.
Quixote
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by Quixote »

Well, I think the 16th applies to everything but the general population.
So in particular, it applies to Congress, which, of course, is the only body the 16th was intended to apply to. Or did you mean to say something even more absurd?
It's clear from the record that the Pollock decision excluded all income taxes even those clearly falling under the head of excises.
Only to people who haven't read Pollock. The Court made it perfectly clear that the tax was valid with regard to all income other than that derived from real or personal property. As the Court said in Brushaber, the Pollock Court recognized that all income taxes are excises, and therefore need not be apportioned.
Even cases involving corporations engaged in profit, again they are creatures of law, they could not exist without it.
That is not a sentence. Try again.
The congressional record and several Supreme Court cases make it clear the constitution was only changed enough to accommodate business activity, activity such as described in Pollock.
Right, because ever other type of income could already be taxed without apportionment. So what's your point?
"Here is a fundamental question to ask yourself- what is the goal of the income tax scam? I think it is a means to extract wealth from the masses and give it to a parasite class." Skankbeat
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grixit
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by grixit »

SteveSy wrote:
Nikki wrote:
SteveSy wrote:
Do you even think I care what that retard egomaniac, narcissistic bastard said Dr.? You know I believe he is one of the main reasons our system has failed. He put himself on the level of a deity, claiming he has the ability to find crap that doesn't even exist and we should all accept it as the divine word.

He is the bad man...he took it upon himself to decide law, not because it was there but because he decided it was there. The irony in his diatribe is sickening.
And exactly how does that differ from a bunch of white supremacist, screw-anybody-who-doesn't-own-land guys deciding on their own what the laws should be?
I dunno...personally I would equate Holmes with everything you listed.
Nilli was referring to our Founding Finaglers
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Nikki

Re: Flawed Logic

Post by Nikki »

Thank you for removing the WOOOOOSH over Stevie's head.

I was going to post a follow-up regarding them also being a group of sexist pigs, but that's no longer necessary.

One minor correction: The correct term is Steve's beloved-to-the-point-of-beatification founding fathers.
Dr. Caligari
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by Dr. Caligari »

SteveSy wrote:Well, I think the 16th applies to everything but the general population.
That's a pretty big exception. What language in the 16th could possibly convey that meaning?

Or, phrased differently, what part of "from any source derived" don't you understand?
Dr. Caligari
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notorial dissent
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by notorial dissent »

Or, in Stevesy's case the inoperative phrase is "I think". Which negates all that follows.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
SteveSy

Re: Flawed Logic

Post by SteveSy »

Or, phrased differently, what part of "from any source derived" don't you understand?
The Supreme Court said the 16th didn't eliminate direct taxes or move something from one category to another. It simply clarified what always existed. If it was direct before its still direct. A tax on the profits of a corporation, regardless if the source was from land, is an excise tax and always has been. A general income tax regardless of whom it reaches is still a direct tax. Pollock found that a tax on a corporation's profits derived from the leasing or renting of land was a direct tax due to the source of the income (land).

It's amazing how quickly this group adopts a static linear approach to wording in the constitution when it fits one argument, regardless of what the Supreme Court has said, but then quickly does a 180 when it fits another.

In the debates in the house of representatives preceding the passage of the act of congress to lay 'duties upon carriages for the conveyance of persons,' approved June 5, 1794 (1 Stat. 373, c. 45), Mr. Sedgwick said that 'a capitation tax, and taxes on land and on property and income generally, were direct charges, as well in the immediate as ultimate sources of contribution. He had considered those, and those only, as direct taxes in their operation and effects.
...
But Albert Gallatin, in his Sketch of the Finances of the United States, published in November, 1796, said: 'The most generally received opinion, however, is that, by direct taxes in the constitution, those are meant which are raised on the capital or revenue of the peopel; by indirect, such as are raised on their expense.
- Pollock v. Farmers Loan & Trust

I already see some of you trying desperately to try and claim Pollock sustained income taxes on the average employee.
We have considered the act only in respect of the tax on income derived from real estate, and from invested personal property, and have not commented on so much of it as bears on gains or profits from business, privileges, or employments, in view of the instances in which taxation on business, privileges, or employments has assumed the guise of an excise tax and been sustained as such.
Second Case - Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Company (emphasis added)

Taxation ON employments is generally a license tax. The income tax under discussion is set around the earnings of employees not ON employment. The court says quite clearly they have not made an opinion concerning the taxation of gains or profits from employment. In fact the Supreme Court states very clearly what excises are in the previous Pollock case. There is no mention of it including a tax on wages or earnings in general or anything even remotely close.
Excises are a species of tax consisting generally of duties laid upon the manufacture, sale, or consumption of commodities within the country, or upon certain callings or occupations, often taking the form of exactions for licenses to pursue them.
jg
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Re: Flawed Logic

Post by jg »

SteveSy wrote:
We have considered the act only in respect of the tax on income derived from real estate, and from invested personal property, and have not commented on so much of it as bears on gains or profits from business, privileges, or employments, in view of the instances in which taxation on business, privileges, or employments has assumed the guise of an excise tax and been sustained as such.
Second Case - Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Company (emphasis added)

Taxation ON employments is generally a license tax. The income tax under discussion is set around the earnings of employees not ON employment.
"SteveSy": The income tax under discussion is set around the earnings of employees not ON employment.
USSC: "in view of the instances in which taxation on business, privileges, or employments has assumed the guise of an excise tax and been sustained as such."


"SteveSy": tax under discussion is set around the earnings of employees not ON employment.
USSC: "taxation on business, privileges, or employments"

"SteveSy": tax under discussion is set around the earnings of employees not ON employment.
USSC: "taxation on business, privileges, or employments"

Classic, SteveSy !
“Where there is an income tax, the just man will pay more and the unjust less on the same amount of income.” — Plato
SteveSy

Re: Flawed Logic

Post by SteveSy »

Lol...

I'm sorry you can't tell the difference between a tax on business, employments or privileges and a tax on income derived from those things.
or upon certain callings or occupations, often taking the form of exactions for licenses to pursue them.
Hmmm...no wonder you guys have such difficulty. btw, I've already posted the 1865 revenue law that used that exact wording a "tax on employments", it was a license tax.

Here's a logical test for you jg....
If in fact they meant to say that a tax "on" business, privileges and employments means a tax on the profits thereof then how could they rule the income tax was unconstitutional on the Trust? According to your reasoning it would have been constitutional. Simply stated a tax "on" business, which includes their profits, is an excise regardless and has been sustained as such in the past.