Lost Horizontal claims Quatloos can not rebut Cryer motion

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Quixote
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Post by Quixote »

btw, the context of my statement was in relation to the Supreme court.
No it wasn't. But let's assume for the sake of argument that it was. Which SC case are you tlaking about? Please cite the SC case in which the taxability of wage income was an issue and the SC avoided the question.
I'm familiar with that case, it's wrong, not to mention they give no rational explanation why wages from an employee are considered 100% income while wages earned by a business is not ...
Wages earned by a business?
I'm talking about a contracting service that charges an hourly rate and then pays the employee.
What makes you think it's not? The issue would never arise under the IRC. Section 61 makes it clear that only gross income (i.e, revenue minus direct costs) of a business is income under the Code.
"Here is a fundamental question to ask yourself- what is the goal of the income tax scam? I think it is a means to extract wealth from the masses and give it to a parasite class." Skankbeat
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

Quixote wrote:
btw, the context of my statement was in relation to the Supreme court.
No it wasn't. But let's assume for the sake of argument that it was. Which SC case are you tlaking about? Please cite the SC case in which the taxability of wage income was an issue and the SC avoided the question.
Helvering v. Davis for one actually there was another case where SS came up and the court wouldn't allow the issue to be raised because they felt it wasn’t an issue that could be raised by the corporation. Let’s not forget the probably thousands of opportunities to hear such a case where they decided not even to hear it.
I'm familiar with that case, it's wrong, not to mention they give no rational explanation why wages from an employee are considered 100% income while wages earned by a business is not ...
Wages earned by a business?
Yes businesses earn wages. Ask any contractor who works through a head hunter. The head hunter charges the client x$ an hour and the contractor gets y$ an hour. Let me guess you're going to claim it's not "wages" and slap another label on it even though its exactly the same, hourly pay for hourly work.
Wage -
a payment usually of money for labor or services usually according to a contract and on an hourly, daily, or piecework basis
I'm talking about a contracting service that charges an hourly rate and then pays the employee.
What makes you think it's not? The issue would never arise under the IRC. Section 61 makes it clear that only gross income (i.e, revenue minus direct costs) of a business is income under the Code.
Because hiring out a contractor which you have to pay for requires capital. When paid you didn’t have an accession to wealth clearly realized. You certainly didn’t have 100% gain or profit in the transaction. I really don’t care what 61 says….congress cannot define income, end of story. But on that note are you also going to claim that removing the ability to expense costs it would still be income? If not then how to you reconcile that with an employee? Do you just turn off all your common sense abilities so that you can accept what you've been told?


btw, before you go down this "deductions are a matter of legislative grace" nonsense. It's deductions to income that are a matterof legislative grace, not deductions to gross receipts.
Cpt Banjo
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Post by Cpt Banjo »

SteveSy wrote:Let’s not forget the probably thousands of opportunities to hear such a case where they decided not even to hear it.
Let's also not forget the instances where a case does reach the Supreme Court, but the TP appellant chickens out and either doesn't raise his brain-dead arguments at trial or when he does, fails to preserve them on appeal. Take Cheek, for example -- he could have preserved all of his idiotic claims but chose not to. As the Court said,
There is no doubt that Cheek, from year to year, was free to pay the tax that the law purported to require, file for a refund and, if denied, present his claims of invalidity, constitutional or otherwise, to the courts. See 26 U.S.C. 7422. Also, without paying the tax, he could have challenged claims of tax deficiencies in the Tax Court, 6213, with the right to appeal to a higher court if unsuccessful. 7482(a)(1). Cheek took neither course in some years, and, when he did, was unwilling to accept the outcome. As we see it, he is in no position to claim that his good-faith belief about the validity of the Internal Revenue Code negates willfulness or provides a defense to criminal prosecution under 7201 and 7203. Of course, Cheek was free in this very case to present his claims of invalidity and have them adjudicated, but, like defendants in criminal cases in other contexts who "willfully" refuse to comply with the duties placed upon them by the law, he must take the risk of being wrong.
"Run get the pitcher, get the baby some beer." Rev. Gary Davis
notorial dissent
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Post by notorial dissent »

Don't it just warm your heart, the illiterate arguing about the meanings of words they probably can't even pronounce or spell.
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

Cpt Banjo wrote:
SteveSy wrote:Let’s not forget the probably thousands of opportunities to hear such a case where they decided not even to hear it.
Let's also not forget the instances where a case does reach the Supreme Court, but the TP appellant chickens out and either doesn't raise his brain-dead arguments at trial or when he does, fails to preserve them on appeal. Take Cheek, for example -- he could have preserved all of his idiotic claims but chose not to. As the Court said,
There is no doubt that Cheek, from year to year, was free to pay the tax that the law purported to require, file for a refund and, if denied, present his claims of invalidity, constitutional or otherwise, to the courts. See 26 U.S.C. 7422. Also, without paying the tax, he could have challenged claims of tax deficiencies in the Tax Court, 6213, with the right to appeal to a higher court if unsuccessful. 7482(a)(1). Cheek took neither course in some years, and, when he did, was unwilling to accept the outcome. As we see it, he is in no position to claim that his good-faith belief about the validity of the Internal Revenue Code negates willfulness or provides a defense to criminal prosecution under 7201 and 7203. Of course, Cheek was free in this very case to present his claims of invalidity and have them adjudicated, but, like defendants in criminal cases in other contexts who "willfully" refuse to comply with the duties placed upon them by the law, he must take the risk of being wrong.
Are you honestly going to claim everyone chickened out and NO case concerning the constitutionality of taxing wages was ever brought before the SC? Please.....

The SC is obviously not interested in dealing with the issue. However they’ve seen numerous cases concerning the constitutionality of taxing a business. I know, I know it was soooo obvious they had no need too…but constitutionally taxing a corporation’s income was worth review, even in light of the numerous gross receipts and privilege tax cases on corporations….pffft.
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

notorial dissent wrote:Don't it just warm your heart, the illiterate arguing about the meanings of words they probably can't even pronounce or spell.
I agree....those damn courts should stop messing with crap they don't even begin to understand. When you don't even know what "erroneous assumption" means you have no business determining the meaning of things like "income".
grammarian44

Post by grammarian44 »

SteveSy wrote:
notorial dissent wrote:Don't it just warm your heart, the illiterate arguing about the meanings of words they probably can't even pronounce or spell.
I agree....those damn courts should stop messing with crap they don't even begin to understand. When you don't even know what "erroneous assumption" means you have no business determining the meaning of things like "income".
Let me know when the President appoints you to the bench, Steve. Then I promise you I will tailor my arguments to fit your expectations about what legal terminology means. Until then, I'm going to work with the cards I've been dealt.

The fact is there is no such thing as the "true meaning" of the law apart from what the courts say the law is. And it could never be otherwise, in any conceivable judicial system.
notorial dissent
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Post by notorial dissent »

Stevie, little problem.
Amendment XVI

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
This gives the Congress the power to collect taxes on incomes, and they already had the power to make all necessary laws to carry out their functions, which includes defining what income is, and what is or is not allowed as a deduction from income.

So, your arguments, are as usual, only so much hot air and whining.
natty

Post by natty »

SteveSy wrote: I just don't understand how you make sense out of the direct tax clause. Under your reasoning or the reasoning you’ve adopted from another the direct tax clause serves NO purpose and never did. It was easily circumvented by mere name changing. All that debate and all those letters of concern were for what, fun? Were they that frigging stupid to overlook such an obvious flaw? I suppose if you ignore the obvious and simple common sense then sure your theory is plausible.
Some would argue that slavery defies common sense. Nevertheless, stevie continues to dance around with this issue of direct taxation and apportionment.
Has anyone seriously thought about how grossly inequitable any apportioned tax would be? For instance, an apportioned income tax or an apportioned property tax would be grossly inequitable given the vast differences in per capita income or land values and the cost of living between different states.

Isn't apportionment an archaic subject that served a purpose to those with slavery on the brain? Even the Pollock court could not rationalize the apportionment requirement. Apportionment was just the law. They even stated there was always the amendment process to change the law.

We got the 16th Amendment and here is stevie still arguing for apportionment. Now that defies common sense for sure.
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

natty wrote:
SteveSy wrote: I just don't understand how you make sense out of the direct tax clause. Under your reasoning or the reasoning you’ve adopted from another the direct tax clause serves NO purpose and never did. It was easily circumvented by mere name changing. All that debate and all those letters of concern were for what, fun? Were they that frigging stupid to overlook such an obvious flaw? I suppose if you ignore the obvious and simple common sense then sure your theory is plausible.
Some would argue that slavery defies common sense. Nevertheless, stevie continues to dance around with this issue of direct taxation and apportionment.
Has anyone seriously thought about how grossly inequitable any apportioned tax would be? For instance, an apportioned income tax or an apportioned property tax would be grossly inequitable given the vast differences in per capita income or land values and the cost of living between different states.

Isn't apportionment an archaic subject that served a purpose to those with slavery on the brain? Even the Pollock court could not rationalize the apportionment requirement. Apportionment was just the law. They even stated there was always the amendment process to change the law.
The apportionment clause was intended to be a fair when taxing citizens directly, it does after all tax in proportion to representation, intentionally I might add. I think apportionment would be inequitable if done by say a flat capitation tax. However, there is no requirement it should be laid like that . It could be laid per person progressively like they did in France a few hundred years ago. For all I know they do it now. Of course England also has a direct tax in proportion to income. The government should also leave it up to the States to collect as it pleases, there is no requirement each and every person pay the tax. As long as the State pays its share everything is fine. Strangely enough we are the only country in the world, that I can find, that calls an income tax an indirect tax. More proof the government is just making crap up to so that it can tax the masses.

There is a huge misunderstanding of how direct taxes are laid and collected. I think its propaganda intentionally disseminated to scare people into agreeing with what some people want done.
We got the 16th Amendment and here is stevie still arguing for apportionment. Now that defies common sense for sure.
If you understood why the 16th was put in place and who it was intended to get to it doesn't defy common sense at all. The truth is the average Joe wanted the income tax to reduce their taxation. It was intended to get to the rich businessmen who were avoiding taxation. It was never intended to tax the little guy's pay check. If that was even considered the amendment would have never been ratified because its supporters would have never proposed it to begin with. It would have accomplished exactly the opposite of what they were trying to do.
Imalawman
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Post by Imalawman »

SteveSy wrote: If you understood why the 16th was put in place and who it was intended to get to it doesn't defy common sense at all. The truth is the average Joe wanted the income tax to reduce their taxation. It was intended to get to the rich businessmen who were avoiding taxation. It was never intended to tax the little guy's pay check. If that was even considered the amendment would have never been ratified because its supporters would have never proposed it to begin with. It would have accomplished exactly the opposite of what they were trying to do.
I can agree to a point on this with you. The income tax was pushed to distribute wealth - primarily looking at the huge estates that were not getting taxed at all. However, the drafters saw fit to make the language universal and very broad. This you cannot deny. Also, given that an income tax was already constitutional for the most part, you really cannot argue that the 16th am. was meant as a limitation. The plain language denies this.
"Some people are like Slinkies ... not really good for anything, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down the stairs" - Unknown
Quixote
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Post by Quixote »

I really don’t care what 61 says….congress cannot define income, end of story.
No, but Congress can decide not to tax certain income. Congress's decision not to tax certain income does not mean it isn't income. All of your arguments by comparison compare the gross income of individuals with the taxable income of businesses. You can't seriously be surprised that they are computed differently.
"Here is a fundamental question to ask yourself- what is the goal of the income tax scam? I think it is a means to extract wealth from the masses and give it to a parasite class." Skankbeat
Quixote
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Post by Quixote »

However they’ve seen numerous cases concerning the constitutionality of taxing a business.
Not under the standard definition of business. Your expanded definition doesn't count.
"Here is a fundamental question to ask yourself- what is the goal of the income tax scam? I think it is a means to extract wealth from the masses and give it to a parasite class." Skankbeat
natty

Post by natty »

SteveSy wrote: The apportionment clause was intended to be a fair when taxing citizens directly, it does after all tax in proportion to representation, intentionally I might add. I think apportionment would be inequitable if done by say a flat capitation tax. However, there is no requirement it should be laid like that . It could be laid per person progressively like they did in France a few hundred years ago. For all I know they do it now. Of course England also has a direct tax in proportion to income. The government should also leave it up to the States to collect as it pleases, there is no requirement each and every person pay the tax. As long as the State pays its share everything is fine. Strangely enough we are the only country in the world, that I can find, that calls an income tax an indirect tax. More proof the government is just making crap up to so that it can tax the masses.
You obviously missed my point, stevie. Who cares what France or England considers a direct tax? Apportionment is a rule unique to USA. We have 50 States. An apportioned tax means each State pays a share of a tax according to its population. Wouldn't an economically challenged State pay disproportionately more tax than a wealthy State? For instance, the per capita income of Mississippi is 26K while the per capita income of Connecticut is 42K. Conn. would pay little tax compared to Miss. Or, Alaska has a small population but is mineral rich. Its people wouldn't even be affected by an apportioned tax.

I think that you are so obsessed by Direct Taxes that you ignore the reality of apportionment.
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

natty wrote:
SteveSy wrote: The apportionment clause was intended to be a fair when taxing citizens directly, it does after all tax in proportion to representation, intentionally I might add. I think apportionment would be inequitable if done by say a flat capitation tax. However, there is no requirement it should be laid like that . It could be laid per person progressively like they did in France a few hundred years ago. For all I know they do it now. Of course England also has a direct tax in proportion to income. The government should also leave it up to the States to collect as it pleases, there is no requirement each and every person pay the tax. As long as the State pays its share everything is fine. Strangely enough we are the only country in the world, that I can find, that calls an income tax an indirect tax. More proof the government is just making crap up to so that it can tax the masses.
You obviously missed my point, stevie. Who cares what France or England considers a direct tax? Apportionment is a rule unique to USA. We have 50 States. An apportioned tax means each State pays a share of a tax according to its population. Wouldn't an economically challenged State pay disproportionately more tax than a wealthy State? For instance, the per capita income of Mississippi is 26K while the per capita income of Connecticut is 42K. Conn. would pay little tax compared to Miss. Or, Alaska has a small population but is mineral rich. Its people wouldn't even be affected by an apportioned tax.
That's true....but then they have the option to not lay the tax. It's not a requirement. The same exact thing would have happened with any other direct taxes laid in past history. It's fair by representation not by wealth. It was never intended to be any different.
I think that you are so obsessed by Direct Taxes that you ignore the reality of apportionment.
Just because something might appear unfair in some way to another doesn't negate the law. You pay by the amount of representation you receive. You don't get a car cheaper just because you are poorer. Socialism was not intended nor considered in the constitution. Besides the government was never designed to get so big it needed the amount of money the government currently needs. If it were cut down to constitutional size any tax would be insignificant if assessed on the masses, even for the lower class.

In a branch of taxation where no limits to the discretion of the government are to be found in the nature of things, the establishment of a fixed rule, not incompatible with the end, may be attended with fewer inconveniences than to leave that discretion altogether at large.
Direct taxes - Federalist papers #21
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Post by The Observer »

SteveSy wrote:Just because something might appear unfair in some way to another doesn't negate the law.
Please remember that when you are complaining about how unfair the income tax laws are being applied - what seems unfair to you does not negate the law.
"I could be dead wrong on this" - Irwin Schiff

"Do you realize I may even be delusional with respect to my income tax beliefs? " - Irwin Schiff
notorial dissent
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Post by notorial dissent »

I guess the thing I don’t understand about Stevie’s constant whining, or should I say this particular whine, is what is his particular fascination is with apportionment, other than that he obviously doesn’t understand what it really means.

Congress already had the power to tax income to begin with so a lot of his rant is just his usual hot air, the bit about apportionment confuses me though, as it would in fact be far and away more unfair than the income level based tax we now have, as the people from his state would end up paying considerably more than those from my or many other states, and then I would bet we would really hear him whine about how unfair and awful it would be. Apportionment is to my way of thinking one of the least fair methods of taxing there could be.
SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

notorial dissent wrote:I guess the thing I don’t understand about Stevie’s constant whining, or should I say this particular whine, is what is his particular fascination is with apportionment, other than that he obviously doesn’t understand what it really means.
I know what it means and I certainly know more historically than you could hope to know, thank you very much.
Congress already had the power to tax income to begin with so a lot of his rant is just his usual hot air, the bit about apportionment confuses me though, as it would in fact be far and away more unfair than the income level based tax we now have, as the people from his state would end up paying considerably more than those from my or many other states, and then I would bet we would really hear him whine about how unfair and awful it would be. Apportionment is to my way of thinking one of the least fair methods of taxing there could be.
You say congress already had the power...they did not. They had the power to tax certain incomes. Obviously if they had a blanket power Pollock would have dismissed the case.

I've challenged you and everyone else on this board to produce a single quote from anyone during or shortly after the ratification of the constitution that said such a thing. I have multiple quotes saying the exact opposite from people who were there and in positions of authority. You have, well, nothing but assumption.

As far as apportionment and the direct tax clause, you need to understand it before you opine on it. You’ve come to the conclusion based on an erroneous belief that income taxes are absolutely necessary, they are not. They aren’t any more necessary than perpetual poll taxes. Nor is it necessary that our government is so uconstitutionally bloated that it needs so much revenue it must tax everyone's paycheck. An income tax is simply a method, one that it utterly and totally unfair if laid by excise. People are treated unequally and some people pay more for doing nothing more than working harder or doing something better than someone else. The idea of a perpetual graduated tax funding a perpetually growing government is incompatible with freedom and liberty, it punishes ambition and ingenuity.

In a republic each pays their own way, you don’t pay more just because someone else pays less. Like I said you don’t get a car cheaper because you make less nor do you get a free country for less because you’re poor. If we both dig ditches and I make 500 a week because I dig faster I shouldn’t be subsidizing your contribution to government because you’re a lazy ass and dig less.

I quoted from the federalist papers. As it stated some things are better left alone if it’s inconvenient or the use of it is inequitable. That’s why the direct tax clause is there. It’s difficult, inconvenient and it directly gets to a taxpayer’s pocket book and most importantly it taxes equal to representation. It was not intended to be a tax used on a perpetual basis. It was an emergency measure allowing for assured revenue during times of war and the like.
Last edited by SteveSy on Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Duke2Earl
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Post by Duke2Earl »

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SteveSy

Post by SteveSy »

I always knew you were a stupid troll....now that you've got something to symbolize your intellect go away.