Richard Calls Upon You!

[The Operative]

Under the Constitution and the federal tax laws, a U.S. citizen is a person who was born in one of the 50 states or territories.

Nice try but NO!
Even the feds are smart enough to realize the ambiguity of the 14th Amendment. As I've previously mentioned to the meatheads in here, the term "United States" has more than one legal definition (Blacks Law Dictionary, 8th edition).

It's not the US Constitution that secured citizenry, it's contract law, and contract law **can** supersede the Constitution when properly used. I feel the following is a MAJOR reason anti-taxing zealots consistently fail.

The sheople are taught they NEED a SSN, that it's required by law (which is total BS!) On the application for a social security card, Line 3 says "CITIZENSHIP" (check one) the first option is "U.S. Citizen". Now because all of the sheople within this matrix have been ***taught*** that we're "US Citizens" because we are born in the usA, everyone automatically marks that spot, regardless of whether you were born within a federal territory/ or upon the jurisdiction of any one of the 50 united states.

And that is how Americans born on American soil (within the 50 states, and legally outside of a federal territory) legally become "US Citizens".

Years ago, in confidence, a multi-millionaire said to me.."The Federal Government is the most corrupt government in the world." so I can totally understand this type of legal perversion being perpetrated upon the American sheople.

I realize this may be far too simple for many of the 'Hitler youth' in here to comprehend, but I cannot open a closed mind.

As I have already told you, that argument has been tried before and has NEVER BEEN SUCCESSFUL. The reason it has never been successful is because it is ABSURD, FRIVOLOUS, IDIOTIC, MORONIC, STUPID, DUMB, etc. Section 1 of the 14th amendment states, "All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." There is very little ambiguous about that sentence. If you don't want to be treated like a person who never graduated from third grade, then you need to stop trying to present all these sovereign citizen arguments.

The courts have rejected the 'contract' argument too. You need to open your mind and understand that NONE OF THESE ARGUMENTS ARE NEW TO US. We have heard them all before and we have seen them lose in court before.

Are you going to read any of the links that I provide? Here are a few more...
http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#contract
http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#SSN

My patience is not infinite. If you do not want to be labeled as "dumber than a box of rocks" and placed on ignore, then you need to stop presenting arguments in the manner of trying to 'teach' us something. I am not all-knowing, but I definitely know that what you have presented is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG and 99.999% of the lawyers and judges in this country will tell you that you are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!

Now, if you have a legitimate question about income taxes or the tax laws, we will be happy to answer that question. However, do not attempt to tell us that we do not know the basics of tax law or citizenship. I guarantee that most posters here have more knowledge about tax law than any sovereign citizen ignoramus.

[LPC]

Under the Constitution and the federal tax laws, a U.S. citizen is a person who was born in one of the 50 states or territories.

Nice try but NO!

Schiller!

[GoldandSilverEagles]

I suppose you propose that all needed federal government revenue will be collected by having the government join scAmway then, right?

If Amway/Amway Global is a "scam" as you proclaim, then how do you explain their $ucce$$ worldwide Tarzan?

If Amway/Amway is a "scam", how have they been able to remain in business for 50 years?

[Imalawman]

I suppose you propose that all needed federal government revenue will be collected by having the government join scAmway then, right?

If Amway/Amway Global is a "scam" as you proclaim, then how do you explain their $ucce$$ worldwide Tarzan?

Tell me just one "scam" that has stayed in business consistently for fifty years?

So not only is this nutjob a redemption/sovereign citizen whacko, he's also a mlm'er too. LOL. Not that you're trying to be a walking stereotype for gullibility or anything...too funny...

[GoldandSilverEagles]

I suppose you propose that all needed federal government revenue will be collected by having the government join scAmway then, right?

If Amway/Amway Global is a "scam" as you proclaim, then how do you explain their $ucce$$ worldwide Tarzan?

Tell me just one "scam" that has stayed in business consistently for fifty years?

So not only is this nutjob a redemption/sovereign citizen whacko, he's also a mlm'er too. LOL. Not that you're trying to be a walking stereotype for gullibility or anything...too funny...

One question for you forum members who have "government" jobs (8am-4pm or 9am-5pm, etc...) ... why are you posting on here and wasting the taxpayer's dollars, instead of doing your jobs? And don't give the typical response..."I'm on break, or on lunch!"

You're on the government/taxpayers time ....GET BACK TO WORK!

[Demosthenes]

I don't work for the government, unlike Weston White.

[The Operative]

I don't work for the government, though my company does sell to the government.

[Red Cedar PM]

I suppose you propose that all needed federal government revenue will be collected by having the government join scAmway then, right?

If Amway/Amway Global is a "scam" as you proclaim, then how do you explain their $ucce$$ worldwide Tarzan?

If Amway/Amway is a "scam", how have they been able to remain in business for 50 years?

I'm sure you can find many threads about Amway in the MLM forum on Quatloos, so I won't get into it too much, but basically the Amway business itself is structured so that the people on the top earn more than the people at the bottom, so someone is always going to be making money off of someone else. It may be legal, but it doesn't make very good business sense. The only reason it has been around for so long compared to other, shadier MLMs is that they actually do have real products, although they are overpriced. There is a reason the vast majority of their revenue comes from "business owners" and not retail business to outside customers. Almost all of their products cannot be competitively priced to compete with the rest of the market.

The real scam with Amway lies in the "support materials" (CDs, tapes, seminars, etc.) business that many upper-echelon business owners sell to the less-successful owners and make a killing off of. Although this has held to be legal it is definitely on the shady side. Amway themselves tried to prevent the sale of these items but was unable to stop it. If you want to spend money on that kind of stuff that is your business, but you might as well take your money and flush it down the toilet.

[Imalawman]

[
One question for you forum members who have "government" jobs (8am-4pm or 9am-5pm, etc...) ... why are you posting on here and wasting the taxpayer's dollars, instead of doing your jobs? And don't give the typical response..."I'm on break, or on lunch!"

You're on the government/taxpayers time ....GET BACK TO WORK!

I don't work for the gov't either, bozo.

[Red Cedar PM]

I don't work for the government either. You will find most regular posters here don't, and I'm sure the ones that do aren't punching a clock, they are salaried, in which case their hours are probably flexible.

I suppose you propose that all needed federal government revenue will be collected by having the government join scAmway then, right?

If Amway/Amway Global is a "scam" as you proclaim, then how do you explain their $ucce$$ worldwide Tarzan?

If Amway/Amway is a "scam", how have they been able to remain in business for 50 years?

And now that I have answered your question AGAIN while you have ignored all of mine that I have posted in this thread, want to go back and answer my original question? Or are you going to non-sequitur with something else?

[Famspear]

I do not work for the government either.

I once talked with someone from the government, though. Maybe more than once, actually. I think I've paid some taxes to the government.......

[Imalawman]

And.....locked!!!

[Famspear]

GoldandSilverEagles wrote:

Years ago, in confidence, a multi-millionaire said to me.."The Federal Government is the most corrupt government in the world." so I can totally understand this type of legal perversion being perpetrated upon the American sheople.

I realize this may be far too simple for many of the 'Hitler youth' in here to comprehend, but I cannot open a closed mind.

You've illustrated once again, as do tax protesters of all stripes, over and over, every day, the fallacy behind your thinking. You think that all this is about the "corrupt government" because, for you, that is what it's about. On some level, you really do "believe" that the quatloos regulars are here to defend "the government." And you apparently believe that the federal income tax law involves "legal perversion."

You are wrong.

This thread is about frivolous arguments over the legal validity of the federal income tax laws - not about whether the government is corrupt, not about whether the tax laws are "good."

No, it is you who have the closed mind, not us.

I wish I had a nickel for every time a tax protester falsely "accused" me of being a "government employee" or a "government shill." Even if I were a government worker, that kind of rhetoric reveals part of the rotten core of the tax protester's (tax denier's) philosophy. The part of the rotten core to which I refer is the logical fallacy of beginning with the conclusion that the government is bad (or that federal income taxes are bad) and then gathering "evidence" to "prove" that point by manufacturing a phony theory about legal validity.

Just look at postings on tax protester web sites. You see it constantly: references to the "evil" government, the "corrupt" government, etc., etc. If this were really about the validity of the income tax laws, you would not see all those references. What you would see is a discussion that focuses on the legal analysis of the law itself. Instead, people like Peter Hendrickson and his followers have constructed hilariously complex theories -- based on pseudo-legal "reasoning". They struggle and strain to try to explain away every passage in the texts of statutes and court decisions that directly contradict their delusional beliefs.

As legal scholar Daniel B. Evans has noted, they believe in the non-existent power of non-existent magical words. They have constructed, in their minds, an entire fantasy universe -- a fantasy, bizarro legal system -- with its own crazy set of imaginary "rules," where the "United States" and the "United States of America" are two different things, where one can be a citizen of Oklahoma and yet not be a U.S. citizen, where Oklahoma is somehow not a "state", where the Internal Revenue Service is a "private collection agency," where spelling words in all capital letters has some magical, mystical significance that a court of law will supposedly somehow recognize some day, where the private sector compensation of an individual may be taxable or not taxable, depending on whether that individual is involved in an "activity" in connection with a "federal privilege" -- though no one has ever been successful ever, ever, ever, in any court of law, using any of this stupid ideas. And no matter how many times the courts strike them down, they strain to create imaginary "rationales" for defeat -- "Oh, this taxpayer used the word taxpayer before the court, and therefore magically lost his case, but he would have won if only he had used the right words." Notice, also, the pathological repetition of the use of words like "patriot" by these people self-referentially.

Tax deniers are not "patriots." They are greedy. They are delusional. They are dishonest. And they are sick.

[grixit]

I'm sure you can find many threads about Amway in the MLM forum on Quatloos, so I won't get into it too much, but basically the Amway business itself is structured so that the people on the top earn more than the people at the bottom, so someone is always going to be making money off of someone else. It may be legal, but it doesn't make very good business sense. The only reason it has been around for so long compared to other, shadier MLMs is that they actually do have real products, although they are overpriced. There is a reason the vast majority of their revenue comes from "business owners" and not retail business to outside customers. Almost all of their products cannot be competitively priced to compete with the rest of the market.

The real scam with Amway lies in the "support materials" (CDs, tapes, seminars, etc.) business that many upper-echelon business owners sell to the less-successful owners and make a killing off of. Although this has held to be legal it is definitely on the shady side. Amway themselves tried to prevent the sale of these items but was unable to stop it. If you want to spend money on that kind of stuff that is your business, but you might as well take your money and flush it down the toilet.

I've met a couple of people who were successful selling Amway. But neither was a participant in the support process or used the standard promotional materials, they just acted as independent retailers whose stock included Amway.

[webhick]

Stop posting to the locked thread, guys. Start a new one if you want to continue the conversation.