Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

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Famspear
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by Famspear »

Pottapaug1938 wrote:"If you're referring to a law that requires an individual to pay federal income taxes, there isn't one."

Despite the best efforts of many Quatloosers, the facts aren't likely to change TP minds -- if they have any. They are looking for a law that says something like "each person is liable for, and required to pay income tax," etc., and which set forth an exhaustive list of definitions relevant to income taxation. They are looking for a law that sets forth this requirement in the loopy language that they use and that they require for anything which they plan to respect and heed. As on point as Demo's last post is, and as exhaustive as Dan Evans's Tax Protestor FAQ is, none of this will ever convince the TPers -- these things don't say what the TPers want to hear.
Yes, and the permutations and variations on tax protester/tax denier themes seem to go on and on, and evidenced by the length of Dan's Tax Protester FAQ. One of the variations I have seen is the argument that there is no ONE SINGLE code section that makes an individual liable for the federal income tax. I once had a tax protester complain on the ground that, more or less, EVERYTHING in the Code that makes you liable for the income tax should be found in ONE AND ONLY ONE code section, and not spread out among several code sections. This, of course, is another imaginary rule cooked up by those people. Imaginary rules, magic words, "the statute has to say it in just the way I want it to be said before I'll agree that I am liable", etc., etc. These are the people who, when they were kids, argued endlessly with their parents about whether they were really required to clean up their rooms, or whether they were going to be allowed to take that car out on Friday night, or whether they were going to be required to be back from that date by eleven pm, etc., etc.

Unfortunately, while parents sometimes spoil their kids or (perhaps) contribute to the development of narcissistic personality disorders in their kids, neither the IRS, nor the courts, nor the law itself "cares" about the imaginary rules cooked up by tax protesters. The tax protesters huff and puff and huff and puff and feed each other the repetitive nonsense, and it never goes anywhere once the rubber meets the road. What a sad, miserable group.
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by Gregg »

What makes me want to slap the stupid out of them is when they whine that the tax code is too complicated for an average person to understand. Maybe, if they didn't have people argueing with them whether or not the term "person" includes, well, people, we wouldn't need 15 pages (written one sentence at a time mind you) of definitions and clarifications for terms that any 5 year old should understand. Just today I saw one of the crackheads bitching that "terms" are not "words" and each has a specific meaning blah blah blah, and the only ones I've seen try to make that argument are the TDs, maybe they should bve rejoicing that they are losing the arguement everytime it gets in front of a judge, ir nothing else it seems to add clarity to the 99% of us that aren't retarded.

The arrogance of those people, 60 Million of the rest of us manage to file and pay our taxes, but they think the government is defruading all of us, and that there merry band of about 10,000 (at best) dingbats led by a convicted felon and tax cheat with no training in accountancy or law knows better than us, the IRS, the body of Federal Judges and the tens of thousands of tax professionals who you can bet know every LEGAL way to avoid paying taxes.

Ughh...
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by Demosthenes »

Gregg wrote:The arrogance of those people, 60 Million of the rest of us manage to file and pay our taxes...
According to the IRS SOI, 138,394,754 Form 1040s were filed for TY 2006 (the most recent year available) and those returns claimed 275,256,944 exemptions.
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by Duke2Earl »

What you have to understand is it's not about the words. Yes, I know lots them argue about the words but that is simply a smokescreen. What is going on is that we have an answer in search of a rationale. The answer is that they are not going to pay taxes no matter what... but they are looking frantically for a reason why. If you changed the words to include "liable" or whatever words they say all that will happen is that they go to the next ridiculous argument. If they get hammered under the "there is no law" bullcrap, then they go to the "Well, there is a law but it doesn't apply to me" ala Hendrickson or Rose. And when that one goes down then they are all about the Constitutional crap like Weston White that even if there is a law and it applies to them then the law is unconstitutional because its a direct tax. And so on and so on and rinse and repeat.

That is why arguing with most of them is so useless once they are fully committed to their self destructive path. Even if you could win the argument all you accomplish is to push them to the next frivolous argument. Yes, some do come back from the edge but those seem to be relatively rare and it usually seems to require an imminent disaster to open their eyes. I wish it wasn't so but that seems to be the way it works.
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Gregg
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by Gregg »

Demosthenes wrote:
Gregg wrote:The arrogance of those people, 60 Million of the rest of us manage to file and pay our taxes...
According to the IRS SOI, 138,394,754 Form 1040s were filed for TY 2006 (the most recent year available) and those returns claimed 275,256,944 exemptions.
So I understated the number of sane people...I was working off the 'prompter, thanks for the backup.

:lol:
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by Demosthenes »

Of those 138,000,000 tax returns, approximately 30,000 end up in the inboxes of the Frivolous Filer Program employees.
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

Duke2earl: "What you have to understand is it's not about the words. Yes, I know lots them argue about the words but that is simply a smokescreen. What is going on is that we have an answer in search of a rationale. The answer is that they are not going to pay taxes no matter what... but they are looking frantically for a reason why. If you changed the words to include "liable" or whatever words they say all that will happen is that they go to the next ridiculous argument. If they get hammered under the "there is no law" bullcrap, then they go to the "Well, there is a law but it doesn't apply to me" ala Hendrickson or Rose. And when that one goes down then they are all about the Constitutional crap like Weston White that even if there is a law and it applies to them then the law is unconstitutional because its a direct tax. And so on and so on and rinse and repeat.

That is why arguing with most of them is so useless once they are fully committed to their self destructive path. Even if you could win the argument all you accomplish is to push them to the next frivolous argument. Yes, some do come back from the edge but those seem to be relatively rare and it usually seems to require an imminent disaster to open their eyes. I wish it wasn't so but that seems to be the way it works."

The other problem is that the TPers use the Humpty Dumpty Dictionary when defining words. When the :Browns challenge anyone to prove that the court trying has jurisdiction over them and their crimes, it is useless to demonstrate that jurisdiction in the way that one would demonstrate it to a rational person. "Jurisdiction", to them, means only what THEY want it to mean; and if you accept that wacky definition, you open yourself to accepting the whole unhinged ball of TP wax.
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by jimni »

Yes, please do provide me the federal income tax statutory reference and case law Judge Roy. But only if it's Consitutional.
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by The Operative »

jimni wrote:Yes, please do provide me the federal income tax statutory reference and case law Judge Roy. But only if it's Consitutional.
Several people have already pointed it out to you. The federal income tax laws are located in Title 26 of the U.S. Code. Like it or not, that is law and it is Constitutional.
http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html
http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/ ... omeTax.htm
http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/ ... tNoLaw.htm
http://www.hereisthelaw.com
http://www.irs.gov/taxpros/article/0,,id=159932,00.html
http://taxfool.net/home
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Pottapaug1938
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

The Operative wrote:
jimni wrote:Yes, please do provide me the federal income tax statutory reference and case law Judge Roy. But only if it's Consitutional.
Several people have already pointed it out to you. The federal income tax laws are located in Title 26 of the U.S. Code. Like it or not, that is law and it is Constitutional.
http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html
http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/ ... omeTax.htm
http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/ ... tNoLaw.htm
http://www.hereisthelaw.com
http://www.irs.gov/taxpros/article/0,,id=159932,00.html
http://taxfool.net/home
The trouble is, jimni seems to be using "Constitutional" in its Humpty Dumpty definition. Unless you define it in THOSE terms, you're not likely to get much of anyplace with people like this.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture." -- Pastor Ray Mummert, Dover, PA, during an attempt to introduce creationism -- er, "intelligent design", into the Dover Public Schools
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Pottapaug1938
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

The Operative wrote:
jimni wrote:Yes, please do provide me the federal income tax statutory reference and case law Judge Roy. But only if it's Consitutional.
Several people have already pointed it out to you. The federal income tax laws are located in Title 26 of the U.S. Code. Like it or not, that is law and it is Constitutional.
http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html
http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/ ... omeTax.htm
http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/ ... tNoLaw.htm
http://www.hereisthelaw.com
http://www.irs.gov/taxpros/article/0,,id=159932,00.html
http://taxfool.net/home
The trouble is, jimni seems to be using "Constitutional" in its Humpty Dumpty definition. Unless you define it in THOSE terms, you're not likely to get much of anyplace with people like this.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture." -- Pastor Ray Mummert, Dover, PA, during an attempt to introduce creationism -- er, "intelligent design", into the Dover Public Schools
jimni

Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by jimni »

May I suggest, Judge Roy, that you and all the others who believe the Federal government has a legal right to tax your personal income read Cracking The Code, The Facinating Truth About Taxation in America by Peter Eric Hendrickson available at http://www.losthorizons.com.
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by Demosthenes »

jimni wrote:May I suggest, Judge Roy, that you and all the others who believe the Federal government has a legal right to tax your personal income read Cracking The Code, The Facinating Truth About Taxation in America by Peter Eric Hendrickson available at http://www.losthorizons.com.
Some of us have read his book and will also be watching upcoming criminal trial for tax crimes.
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by Nikki »

May I suggest, Jimni, that you visit the forums at LostHorizons to see just how successful people filing educated returns according to Pete's teachings have been.

So far, I believe, none of them -- with the exception of Pete, himself -- are under criminal indictment. However, the number of frivolous filing penalties awarded to Pete's acolytes seems to be a record for any of the gurus.
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by Famspear »

jimni wrote:May I suggest, Judge Roy, that you and all the others who believe the Federal government has a legal right to tax your personal income read Cracking The Code, The Facinating Truth About Taxation in America by Peter Eric Hendrickson available at http://www.losthorizons.com.
Wow, "jimni," if you were laboring under the misconception that the Quatloos regulars here weren't already thoroughly familar with Hendrickson and his Cracking the Code scam, you have a lot of studying to catch up on. Hendrickson's scheme is one of the most frequently discussed and analyzed tax evasion scams of all -- especially in this forum.

EDIT: Someone once asked: Why do we spend so much time studying these scams? One reason we spend so much time with these scams is that it is so much fun to "slap down" each new, smart-aleck "know it all" who comes here believing he or she is somehow going to teach us something "new" with respect to the federal income tax, or is going to introduce us to some aspect of the some tax scam we haven't already seen a thousand times.

Only on rare occasions does anyone bring anything new to us.

EDIT 2: I cannot speak for others, but another reason that I enjoy studying tax protester/tax denier scams is that I really do learn new things about tax law -- it's just that the supposedly "new" stuff that the protesters bring to us isn't the law, and it isn't what we actually "learn".
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by Lambkin »

Nikki wrote:May I suggest, Jimni, that you visit the forums at LostHorizons to see just how successful people filing educated returns according to Pete's teachings have been.

So far, I believe, none of them -- with the exception of Pete, himself -- are under criminal indictment. However, the number of frivolous filing penalties awarded to Pete's acolytes seems to be a record for any of the gurus.
Not to mention that many of the followers of his scam who had assets or income to lose have already returned their fraudulently-obtained refunds in order to avoid that criminal indictment. This is the kind of simple math even idiots can (sometimes) figure out.
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by The Operative »

jimni wrote:May I suggest, Judge Roy, that you and all the others who believe the Federal government has a legal right to tax your personal income read Cracking The Code, The Facinating Truth About Taxation in America by Peter Eric Hendrickson available at http://www.losthorizons.com.
Jimni,

The only "truth" in that book is that it illustrates Pete Hendrickson's inability to comprehend the English language. You should follow that book ONLY IF you have a strong desire to ruin your financial future.
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by jimni »

I have a personal friend who successfully defended himself in a Federal Court against the illegal taxation of his personal income by the Federal Government . Much of what he used to defend himself with was information taken from Hendrickson's book. The judge who presided over the trial asked my friend if he would join him in his chambers afterwards. Once there he said, "Son, I've been waiting 30 years for someone to do what you just did. Congratulations."

"Great Spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." Einstein
Famspear
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by Famspear »

jimni wrote:I have a personal friend who successfully defended himself in a Federal Court against the illegal taxation of his personal income by the Federal Government . Much of what he used to defend himself with was information taken from Hendrickson's book. The judge who presided over the trial asked my friend if he would join him in his chambers afterwards. Once there he said, "Son, I've been waiting 30 years for someone to do what you just did. Congratulations."

"Great Spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." Einstein
Yeah, right.

Would you be interesting in buying a big, orange bridge in San Francisco? Cheap?

EDIT: Here's a clue for you, jimni: No one has ever "successfully defended" himself or herself in a Federal Court against the taxation of his personal income by the Federal Government using Hendrickson's Cracking the Code scam.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
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Re: Ed and Elaine Brown: Notice to Judge

Post by jkeeb »

Another "victory"!

Of course you will not post the case, it will be another anonymous rumor.
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