Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

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Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby cynicalflyer » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:12 pm

LIBERTY DOLLAR ALERT:
June 2009 Vol. 11 No. 06-A

Urgent News for All Liberty Dollar Supporters!

FBI Arrests Bernard, Kevin, Sarah & Rachelle
The battle for a value based currency has began!

The last two days have been amazing! Just shortly after midnight on Tuesday, the phone started ringing and I let the answering machine take the call. But very soon there was another call… with an even more urgent message! Very quickly, a friend of Kevin Innes, explained to me that Kevin had been "detained" by the local sheriff and was being held for the FBI to arrest him! Holy Cow!! The #2 supporter for the Liberty Dollar and co-instructor at the Liberty Dollar University training sessions was in deep trouble with the Feds! I was sure to be next. But would they arrive in a few minutes or would it be a pre-dawn Nazi style assault?

Finally, I got up at 4:00 AM. I was very concerned for Kevin and wondered when the FBI would hit me. Fortunately the morning was quickly filled with a flurry of calls from Kevin's friend, other interested parties, the usual business calls and making preparations for the inevitable knock on the door. But nobody came. Then just after noon, Niles, who's wife, Rachelle, manages the Liberty Dollar Fulfillment Office, called to tell me that Rachelle had been picked up by the FBI at the LD Office and was due to be arraigned in just a few hours! The FBI strikes again!

Luckily, I was able to talk to Rachelle via her cell phone while the FBI was holding her. I was pleased that the FBI agents were the friendly professional types and afforded Rachelle and I quite a few minutes of private conversation. Under the circumstances, Rachelle's demeanor and resolve was right on target. And very quickly, I learned that a warrant had been issued for my arrest. And just a quickly, Rachelle was off to court to be arraigned.

Much later in the afternoon, I learned to my surprise that three big FBI agents had arrested Sarah at work. She and Rachelle were arraigned together and quickly released to on their own recognizance (OR) before the sun set on a very eventful day for the Liberty Dollar. The quick, professional effort with Sarah and Rachelle were gratifying and encouraging. Unfortunately, I was to learn that Sarah lost her job because of this event.

By last afternoon it was clear that the Liberty Dollar would be best served by my turning myself in to the to the US Marshals, otherwise know as 'self reporting.' After a few calls, I found myself talking to Agent Andy (aka Agent F) who was his usual friendly, chatty self. He even recognized my voice although we had only spoken twice and that was over 18 months ago. Sure enough he confirmed that a federal arrest warrant for my arrest had been issued. And after a bit of gamesmanship with Agent Andy, I agreed to report to the US Marshal's office in Fort Myers, Florida at 9:00 AM on Thursday morning as it was too late to be arraigned, plus an overnight in jail would have wrinkled by clothes :)

The following morning, Thursday, June 3, 2009, I actually arrived at the Marshal's office at 8:30 due to light traffic. As the saying goes, "If you gotta do time, do federal time." Quite simply, the federal boys are better educated, better trained and have better manners. I was immediately escorted to a holding cell. After an hour or less, I met with the Pre-Trila Service rep and made it to court at 11:00 in chains and handcuffs. The female judge was businesslike and granted my request to attend my son's graduation in Physics from UCLA next week. After fingerprinting, signing a $50,000 Appearance Bond, one final meeting with the Pre-Indictment Service rep, I was free.

In general, the arraignment was a pleasant affair. The US Marshals did their job with very little attitude, as they should. After all, I am self reporting, and it is for anything violent, I just want to prove that I have a right to issue my own currency and if any body chooses to use it then it is a "private contract." It is certainly not a crime.

And so it came to pass, 2009 years after the birth of Christ, that four regular Americans have taken a stand to defend the People's right to protect themselves from a government currency that has a long and unforgiving history of stealing the people's purchasing power. This is a test of individual rights, as protected by the Tenth Amendment. It is the deciding moment that a private voluntary barter currency (PVBC) is legal in the great United States of America. This is a test that the Liberty Dollar must and will pass, for that I have no doubt. But it will not be easy or cheap. Please, if you support our efforts, support us with any kind of money you have, including pro bono services. Now that the Liberty Dollar faces a federal criminal trial, it is the US Government v Liberty Dollar ala Bernard, Kevin, Sarah & Rachelle. Please help us win. Please help yourself win. Please help American win.

Very simply this is a Win or Lose battle. In addition to money for this legal fight we need articles that reference non-government currency, such as Air Miles as currency, legal research assistance, expert witnesses, legal assistance, etc. If you support the ideals of the Liberty Dollar, this is the time to get behind the Liberty Dollar. We critically need your help! Please send your digital info to Legal@... and your donations of value including other kinds of "currencies" to:
LIBERTY DOLLAR
225 N. Stockwell Road
Evansville. Indiana. 47715

The best news is that the Liberty Dollar finally has the opportunity to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is legal. Over two years ago I sued the US government for a Declaratory Judgment to resolve the legality issue. And how did they respond, they raided the Liberty Dollar and confiscated over $4 million dollars in gold, silver and cash. The US government has done everything possible to kill the Liberty Dollar! And guess what? It has not worked. The mere fact that the Liberty Dollar is still in business is a testament to your demand for Real Money and the ideals that the Liberty Dollar represents.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for your support! Trust me, the Liberty Dollar is not made up of any fat cats. We are all just regular Americans. And we all just want good money, a lot less government and no damn war!

Click HERE for a stilted Press Release by the DOJ. Its three pages with a whopper by Owen Harris, Special FBI Agent in Charlotte who said, "When groups try to replace the US dollar with coins and bills that don't hold the same value..." WOW what a telling statement of pure spin.

Click HERE for the 13 page Indictment.
Click HERE for Sarah's Arrest Warrant.

Guess what?! Liberty Dollar still in business and we need more business! As there has been no Cease and Desist Order, Liberty Dollar remains OPEN FOR BUSINESS. Please visit our shopping cart for all the 2009 Liberty, Peace, Freedom, T-Dollars and more. Don't be bashful or stupid. Silver is going to the moon, just as sure as the US dollar is going to hell with your purchasing power. Now is the time to protect your purchasing with the "inflation proof" currency and help usher in a new monetary model that provides the only proven, peaceful, and profitable solution to the monetary cancer that has infected America.

OUTSTANDING ORDERS: Please rest assured that we will fill all outstanding orders. Yes, after producing a sizable amount of pre-minted Silver Libertys and finally getting current with most orders, we changed mints and are now behind again. We apologize emphatically! Poor and/or slow delivery is not acceptable business. It hurts everyone. And just when we were about to get current again we were arrested. Please continue to support us with your patience too. We promise to get every order out ASAP. But as I hope you can understand, it is a struggle to run a business, any business, in such an environment and fight a major legal battle for our right to protect our purchasing power

The last few 2009 Arrest Dollars. Are you familiar with the Arrest Dollars? Starting in 2007 and continuing through this year the Arrest Dollar is one ounce Silver Liberty that is specially hand hallmarked with a micro "handcuffs" stamp and my federally registered mintmark. Issued only from the day of the raid to today. The last few 2009 Arrest Dollars are currently on the Shopping Cart. After these are gone, they are gone to eBay for much more money.

The 2009 Tea Party Dollar (T-Dollar) is still available and we are still waiting confirmation on the shipment. We are still expecting to have the first batch order in the first 24 HOURS here for the July 4 events. The T-Dollar is still only a buck for an ounce of copper AND you can still get them for 10% discount to they $1 face value for a 100 or more. Hey, they are only a buck… you can't go wrong. Plus every copper issue has sold out. Get these while you can and help support our legal efforts tooJ

The 2009 Silver Libertys! The backbone of the Liberty Dollar model is the one ounce .999 fine silver Lib! Just in the last few days, silver has bounced back over $16, soon the 30 day moving average will be $16 and the Liberty Dollar will Move Up again to the $50 Silver Base. PLEASE don't be dumb and buy silver when it is high. Get it NOW!!! Sure it is not $5 per ounce any more, nor will it ever be again. $5 silver is just not possible with the government spending phony baloney fiat money like a drunken sailor. Please order silver now and protect your purchasing power and profit tomorrow!

Stay tuned to the Liberty Dollar News as we vindicate and validate the legality of the Liberty Dollar. Please take an active role in this exciting and profitable time. Don't lose out. Get involved with the Liberty Dollar to make money, do good and have fun. I am having as much fun in my 60's and I did in The 60's and hope you are too.

Thanks again for your support.

Bernard von NotHaus
Monetary Architect
Editor@...
http://www.LibertyDollar.org
888.LIB.DOLLAR
888.421.6181
Last edited by cynicalflyer on Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Where there is no law, but every man does what is right in his own eyes, there is the least of real liberty." -- General Henry M. Robert author, Robert's Rules of Order

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Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested

Postby cynicalflyer » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:15 pm

"Where there is no law, but every man does what is right in his own eyes, there is the least of real liberty." -- General Henry M. Robert author, Robert's Rules of Order

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Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby wserra » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:45 pm

Von Nutcase wrote:Then just after noon, Niles, who's (sic) wife, Rachelle, manages the Liberty Dollar Fulfillment Office, called to tell me that Rachelle had been picked up by the FBI at the LD Office and was due to be arraigned in just a few hours! The FBI strikes again!
...
Much later in the afternoon, I learned to my surprise that three big FBI agents had arrested Sarah at work.


Anybody else think Von Nutcase ought to take a look at section 5K1.1 of the Guidelines?
"A wise man proportions belief to the evidence."
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Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby Demosthenes » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:57 pm

Calling on Stevie....

From September 22, 2008 in a thread entitled "Liberty Dollar, Part 3":

SteveSy wrote:I'll be willing to bet anyone here $20 it never goes to trial concerning criminal charges against him personally. I'm absolutely certain the government's mission was to shut them down, via the seizures, and nothing more. I you think I'm just a conspiracy theorist take me up on my bet.


Demosthenes wrote:I'll take that bet.
Demo.

SteveSy

Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby SteveSy » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:14 pm

Demosthenes wrote:Calling on Stevie....

From September 22, 2008 in a thread entitled "Liberty Dollar, Part 3":

SteveSy wrote:I'll be willing to bet anyone here $20 it never goes to trial concerning criminal charges against him personally. I'm absolutely certain the government's mission was to shut them down, via the seizures, and nothing more. I you think I'm just a conspiracy theorist take me up on my bet.


Demosthenes wrote:I'll take that bet.


I'll honor my bet, you have my word...though it hasn't gone to trial "yet".

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Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby fortinbras » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:22 pm

I'd get in on the bet if you'll accept payment in a Leroy Check.

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Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby grixit » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:30 pm

I wonder how long that breezy attitude will last.
I voted for Hillary, and i didn't even get a stupid tshirt!

10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
. . . . . . Dr Pepper
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . 4

SteveSy

Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby SteveSy » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:59 pm

While many of you may not like the exchange rate its totally pathetic the government is trying to claim he tried to utter his coins as current money. The entire purpose of the money is to not be FRN's or government issued money, they're inherently anti-FRN.

Whatever, if it does go to trial and the jury realizes what the term "current money" means and doesn't see through the BS I'll be shocked.


Image

Yeah, those look like FRN's and most U.S treasury coins sport a website address and 800 number on them....fricking retarded.

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Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby Number Six » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:08 pm

How could they have avoided the legal trouble?

If they had refrained from using the word "dollar" or using "$"? And had a competant business law attorney develop a workable business plan?

Every non-government silver ounce round I have ever seen except for this particular artistic production, avoids "dollar" and "$".
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Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby Lambkin » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:21 pm

SteveSy wrote:Whatever, if it does go to trial and the jury realizes what the term "current money" means and doesn't see through the BS I'll be shocked.

How shocked? Another $20 worth of shocked?

SteveSy

Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby SteveSy » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:24 pm

Number Six wrote:How could they have avoided the legal trouble?

If they had refrained from using the word "dollar" or using "$"? And had a competant business law attorney develop a workable business plan?

Every non-government silver ounce round I have ever seen except for this particular artistic production, avoids "dollar" and "$".


The use of the word "dollar" or "$" is not illegal, if it were checks, money orders, gift certificates and cards, and coupons would have to be declared illegal. Many foreign countries would have their currency declared illegal here also.

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Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby Famspear » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:55 pm

SteveSy wrote:While many of you may not like the exchange rate its totally pathetic the government is trying to claim he tried to utter his coins as current money. The entire purpose of the money is to not be FRN's or government issued money, they're inherently anti-FRN.

Whatever, if it does go to trial and the jury realizes what the term "current money" means and doesn't see through the BS I'll be shocked.


But what exactly is the legal definition of "current money"? (That's not a rhetorical question; I just don't remember if we ever established that.)

Steve continues, apparently sarcastically:

Yeah, those look like FRN's and most U.S treasury coins sport a website address and 800 number on them....fricking retarded.


The implication Steve appears to be making is that the von NotHaus items do NOT resemble Federal Reserve notes and U.S. treasury coins.

OK, let's assume for the sake of argument that the von NotHaus COINS do not "resemble" U.S. (or foreign) coins in any way.

The problem is that under the indictment, von NotHaus is charged with, among other things, conspiracy to violate 18 USC 486. And under that statute, you can be guilty of uttering, passing, or attempting to utter and pass, coins intended for use as current money regardless of whether the coins resemble U.S. coins, etc., or not. That appears to be the whole point of the "or of original design" language in the statute:

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins [ . . . ] intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.


(bolding, italics, and enlargment added).

Further, I seem to recall that von NotHaus himself has stated that he intends that the purchasers of at least some of his products use the products as either "currency" or "current money", or words pretty close to that. If he used those terms with respect to the COINS (I just don't call), then he might have a problem with the charge of conspiracy to violate section 486. (The paper currency may be another matter.)

In other words, you might not intend that the coin resemble a U.S. coin, and you might not intend that anyone be fooled into thinking that it's a U.S. coin, and yet you still intend that the coin be used as "current money" (and you could therefore still be in violation of the law).

Caveat lector: I don't know (or at least I don't recall) what the courts have ruled as far as the definition of the phrase "intended for use as current money." I have not researched this area of law, and I claim no special expertise in this area of law.

Just my two cents.....
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Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby fortinbras » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:25 pm

LDs were being advertised, when they appeared about ten years ago, as "current money" (meaning: money used and accepted in ordinary business, which for LDs was a lie) in the US, as acceptable in place of US currency, as preferable to US currency, etc. The emphasis was on using LDs in the US and as currency. Additionally, LDs carried the designation "USA" and "dollar", which pretty much identified them as if they were US currency, and moreover used (and boasted of using) artwork copied from old US coins. They went to some pains to emphasize that the US Treasury had determined that LDs were not counterfeits (meaning not intended to be the likeness of actual coins, 18 USC §489) ... but it wasn't until about 6 years ago, when I managed to locate NORFED/LD's lawyer (he was in Hawaii but seemed to move around a lot) and asked about 18 USC §486 ("Uttering coins of gold, silver, or other metal"), that NORFED/LD made a point of backing off on its talk about being used as "current money" and started issuing disclaimers.

SteveSy

Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby SteveSy » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:51 pm

fortinbras wrote:LDs were being advertised, when they appeared about ten years ago, as "current money" (meaning: money used and accepted in ordinary business, which for LDs was a lie) in the US, as acceptable in place of US currency, as preferable to US currency, etc. The emphasis was on using LDs in the US and as currency. Additionally, LDs carried the designation "USA" and "dollar", which pretty much identified them as if they were US currency, and moreover used (and boasted of using) artwork copied from old US coins. They went to some pains to emphasize that the US Treasury had determined that LDs were not counterfeits (meaning not intended to be the likeness of actual coins, 18 USC §489) ... but it wasn't until about 6 years ago, when I managed to locate NORFED/LD's lawyer (he was in Hawaii but seemed to move around a lot) and asked about 18 USC §486 ("Uttering coins of gold, silver, or other metal"), that NORFED/LD made a point of backing off on its talk about being used as "current money" and started issuing disclaimers.

They were never offered as "current money". You'll never find anything he has written saying that. Instead of just making nonsense up to bolster your position trying sticking to the facts.

How about you post something to back that statement up?

"Current Money" is money issued by the treasury or identified by the treasury as legal tender. NorFed has never that I have ever seen advertised that their money was "legal tender" or sanctioned by the U.S. treasury or that anyone should even hint that it was. In fact the entire purpose of the money is to say government issued money is inferior. NorFed wanted to be and advertised to be the antithesis of treasury money. Its just ridiculous to claim they uttered or attempted to utter their coins as treasury money aka legal declared government money.
Last edited by SteveSy on Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby Duke2Earl » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:00 pm

Tell you what... why don't we just wait and see what happens in court.
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Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby cynicalflyer » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:03 pm

SteveSy wrote:They were never offered as "current money". You'll never find anything he has written saying that. Instead of just making nonsense up to bolster your position trying sticking to the facts.

How about you post something to back that statement up?


I thought the indictment spelled it out very well; paragraphs 12 & 15, (von Nutty's writings), especially 24 (slip it into the "current money" as "change") and 30.
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Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby fortinbras » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:07 pm

I am not at all certain that they were "never offered as current money". I seem to recall that claim from their early promotions in MEDIA BYPASS magazine about 10 or 11 years ago (for some reason, Von NotHaus recently yanked the links to those old Media Bypass articles from his website).

Here, for example, a NORFED promotion that referred to LDs as "currency":
http://www.libertydollar.org/news-stories/pdfs/1162839289.pdf

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Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby Famspear » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:31 pm

Mr. von NotHaus, from his web site, on November 19, 2007

The Liberty Dollar is the second-most popular and the fastest-growing currency in America! It's backed by gold and silver instead of being backed by national debt like our familiar US dollars. When you hold the Liberty Dollar, you own silver. When you give this REAL money to someone as payment, they now own silver. Pretty neat, huh?


And.......

While I was the Mintmaster in Hawaii I pursued a secret project. For over 23 years I worked on developing a value backed paper currency to complement the Mint's gold and silver commemorative business.


And.....

I wanted to create a totally new inflation proof currency that met the demands of the free market in precious metals and would represent real gold and silver stored in an independent warehouse.


And.....

The Liberty Dollar is backed by gold and silver.
Yes, there's a competitive currency right here in the United States. In five years it has become the second most popular currency in America.


all quotes from:
http://www.libertydollar.org
as it existed on Nov. 19, 2007.
(enlarged emphasis added).

However, von NotHaus apparently was referring to the paper money (not the coins) in the above quotes. The question is: Did he intend the same thing with the COINS. If so, he may have a problem with conspiracy to violate section 486.

Also, I wonder if there is a legally valid distinction between "currency" and "current money" (I kinda doubt it, though).
...why is anyone in this [losthorizons] community paying the least attention to...'Larry Williams' [Famspear], or other purveyors of disinformation from...quatloos? – Pete Hendrickson, former inmate 15406-039, Fed’l Bureau of Prisons

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Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby Famspear » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:49 pm

SteveSy wrote:Its just ridiculous to claim they uttered or attempted to utter their coins as treasury money aka legal declared government money.


Again, the mere fact that "they" did not utter (or attempt to utter) the coins as treasury money, or as legal tender, or both, might not be the important thing here. On the coins (as opposed to the paper money), it appears that he could still be guilty of conspiracy to violate section 486, even if he did not intend that the coins be mistaken for "treasury money" or for "legal tender".

Separate point:

Remember, "currency" and "legal tender" appear to be separate legal concepts. Theoretically, you could have a certain kind of money be the official "currency" or "current money" of a particular country, and yet not have that money have any "legal tender" attribute. It might be a pretty odd kind of money, but I think the two concepts are different. I think we've been through this before. The concept of "legal tender" is more narrow than the concept of "currency" ("current money").

I believe the concept of legal tender relates to the legal effect of the refusal of a creditor to accept a particular item (such as a Federal Reserve note) as payment in satisfaction of a substantially antecedent debt.

By contrast, I think the concept of currency relates more broadly to the use of a particular object for payment (e.g., for goods and services) even where the rendition of the goods and services and the payment occur at substantially the same time (i.e., where no substantially antecedent debt is involved).

Again, this is not an area of expertise for me.
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Re: Liberty Dollar Leader(s) arrested/indicted

Postby fortinbras » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:11 am

A copy of the Von NotHaus indictment:

http://www.ncwd.uscourts.gov/Documents/509cr27Indict.pdf

It appears to accuse him more of counterfeiting than of churning out an attempt at private currency.


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