Federal Fraud in the Kahre Case

[LPC]

I think it's you that has missed the point.

I stand by my previous sarcasm.

[Joey Smith]

Congress is not required to "fix" the currency at any set exchange rate or guarantee what it is worth.

[LegalEagleMan]

Congress is not required to "fix" the currency at any set exchange rate or guarantee what it is worth.

correct
They set the value per Constitution. The market sets exchange rates.

[Joey Smith]

You are missing it. Congress has the *power* to fix the value of money but is not *required* to do that.

A few sentences about the coining money sentence in the Constitution is this sentence:

"To borrow money on the credit of the United States;"

This means that Congress has the *power* to borrow money, but it certainly does not *require* Congress to do so.

Fundamentally, you are missing that Congress may have the power to do something, but that does not ipso facto mean that Congress has to exercise that power.

And you also seem to be overlooking this little tidbit, a power which Congress most certainly has exercised:

"To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;"

[LegalEagleMan]

You are missing it. Congress has the *power* to fix the value of money but is not *required* to do that.

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

I guess if you want 50 different forms of money. Congress has power to do such and has done such.

[GoldandSilverEagles]

I am curious. GaSE wants to spend $50 gold coins, which he or anyone else is entitled to do. The question is, why would someone pay $1,000 (approximately) for a coin (made with an ounce of gold) and then use it to purchase $50's worth of goods?

You sound ridiculous. Being that you've attached my acronym to this you are being ignorantly presumptuous (business as usual,) and why would I or anyone else willingly offer 1,000 FRN's for the equivalence of 50 FRN's worth of goods/services? Yes, the face value of the gold eagle is 50 dollars, but I, and anyone else have the freedom to attach any "value" to said coin that can be mutually agreed upon within said business transaction occurring with this article of legal tender.

[LegalEagleMan]

Joey,

Also you have other parts of the Constitution that would start to break down because "dollar" is already defined. For example,

The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

[Prof]

The vast majoirty of financial transactions -- at least by dollar amount -- do not involve gold, silver, or even paper -- almost all are done by wire or other transfers of wealth in the form of bills, notes, bonds, etc. ( by bills and notes, I mean private instruments, not FRN's or Euros,although the transactions will be denominated in those or other currencies). No one would take the risk of using currencies or precious metals for large transactions, because of the risk and sheer bulkiness of the transaction, with the exception of the illegal trade in drugs, guns, people, etc., where no one is going to take --or issue -- a check and even a wire transfer leaves some sort of paper trail.

I've been a lawyer for 34 years, and have participated in exactly 2 cash transactions, where suitcases of money were exchanged. Both involved divorces (don't ask how nasty those were).

[jg]

Yes, the face value of the gold eagle is 50 dollars, but I, and anyone else have the freedom to attach any "value" to said coin that can be mutually agreed upon within said business transaction occurring with this article of legal tender.

This may be true; but the value that has to be reported for income tax purposes is the fair market value of the item.
For example, if I have a car that the fair market value is $5,000 and I exchange it for an air conditioning unit installed in my home the installer must report the $5,000 as gross income and may not report for tax purposes only the amount that he and I may have agreed to list in a contract.

TAM-104647-00 3

Under section 61(a)(2) , gross income generally means income from whatever source
derived including gross income derived from business.
Section 1.61-1(a) states that gross income includes income realized in any form,
whether in money, property, or services.
Section 1.61-2(d)(1) provides that, except as otherwise provided in §1.61-1(d)(6)(i), if
services are paid for in property, the fair market value of the property taken in payment
must be included in income as compensation.
Section 1.61-2(d)(6) states that §1.61-2(d)(1) does not apply to the transfer of property
(as defined in §1.83-3(e)), unless §1.83-8 (relating to the applicability of section 83)
applies. Section 83 does not apply in this case.

[LegalEagleMan]

This may be true; but the value that has to be reported for income tax purposes is the fair market value of the item.
For example, if I have a car that the fair market value is $5,000 and I exchange it for an air conditioning unit installed in my home the installer must report the $5,000 as gross income and may not report for tax purposes only the amount that he and I may have agreed to list in a contract.

The value is determined by Congress in increments of "dollars" as specified by statutes.

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

If you are using a gold eagle that value base been set to 50 dollars, in the case of silver eagles it is 1 dollar, in the case of quarters, etc.

If someone does services under contract say for a $50 in "money" than it's $50 dollars. If the amount transferred is a gold bar than the value of such not regulated by Congress will have to be determined. A gold eagle has a value as set by Congress according to their powers give it by the Constitution.

[jg]

Congress obviously does not set the fair market value of coins and currency.
Extending your "logic" would seem to require that a coin dealer, or any trader, value the coin at face value and only sell it for that determined value as the price.

Similarly, when the coin is used in an exchange the value for tax purposes is not the face value; but (as shown above) is the fair market value.

Your inability to distinguish between value and fair market value does not change the legal requirement to report the fair market value of any and all products, goods or services received (as compensation, in an exchange, or by a trade or business).

[LegalEagleMan]

Congress obviously does not set the fair market value of coins and currency.
Extending your "logic" would seem to require that a coin dealer, or any trader, value the coin at face value and only sell it for that determined value as the price.

Every merchant decides what he/she will sell his/her product for. Congress regulates the value of, in accordance with the Constitution, you can disagree all you want it doesn't matter to me. I didn't write the thing. Congress has no authority to tell anyone what he or she can exchange it for.

Similarly, when the coin is used in an exchange the value for tax purposes is not the face value; but (as shown above) is the fair market value.

If "money" is not used at it's face value than Congress is not doing it's job. Nobody has the ability to alter the "value" of United States "money" if that is the case I can alter the face value of a $1 coin to a $20 coin. Sorry, only Congress has that ability see Constitution.

Your inability to distinguish between value and fair market value does not change the legal requirement to report the fair market value of any and all products, goods or services received (as compensation, in an exchange, or by a trade or business).

If you exchange a $50 gold eagle for a $50 gold eagle the valve is still $50. Congress has not authority to guarantee what you will get for your "money" in any specified amount size or value.

"legal requirement to report the fair market value"
Either you are dealing with "money" or you are dealing with some other item, a gold eagle and a silver eagle as declared by the Congress as the authority spelled out for it in the U.S. Constitution.

The United States Congress has declared a gold eagle $50 and the United States book value of gold $42.22. Congress has completed it's duty in regulating the value of, with STANDARDS of weights and measures.

[Judge Roy Bean]

Every merchant decides what he/she will sell his/her product for. Congress regulates the value of, in accordance with the Constitution, you can disagree all you want it doesn't matter to me. I didn't write the thing. Congress has no authority to tell anyone what he or she can exchange it for.

... Congress has not authority to guarantee what you will get for your "money" in any specified amount size or value.

...The United States Congress has declared a gold eagle $50 and the United States book value of gold $42.22. Congress has completed it's duty in regulating the value of, with STANDARDS of weights and measures.

Do you not see the contradictions in your post?

No. I'm certain he doesn't. People who become fixated on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin soon fail to realize not everyone believes in angels.

[LegalEagleMan]

Do you not see the contradictions in your post?

No, Congress set the value of "money" see Constitution with STANDARDS with weights and measures. Congress authorizes the US Mint to do so by statute. The US Mint produces a wide variety of coins, of with a gold eagle are valued at $50 and silver eagles at $1, of course there are also quarter, dimes, pennies.

For book value, plain old gold that sits in Fort Knox that is not been converted to lawful money sits a book entry at $42.22. One is reserves and one is lawful money. Actually, from what I have been able to find out a lot gold is not even 90% pure at Fort Knox, so the estimated total book value is more of rough estimate. Most of it is not deliverable in present form.

[Judge Roy Bean]

The redundancy police are getting complaints, Christopher.