The Brown criminal trial

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Demosthenes
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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby Demosthenes » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:23 am

jg wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:http://www.redcrayons.net/

After reading about the Browns, when I continued down and read the next article (which was quite enjoyable) it was not apparent what sentence, if any, Michael Irving ever received.
Please help the readers with another entry that describes the sentence given in that case, thanks.


Oops. Will do.
Demo.

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wserra
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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby wserra » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:44 pm

Dan raises an excellent point: is the standard for determining whether Elaine was subject to imminent threat of death or serious injury, so as to justify her weapon possession, an objective standard ("events as seen by a reasonable person"), a subjective standard ("events as Elaine saw them"), or a mixed standard ("events as a reasonable person in Elaine's position would see them")? If Elaine's actual belief is irrelevant, then arguably her state of mind is irrelevant, and thus even her own contemporaneous statements indicating state of mind should be inadmissible hearsay if she offers them through other witnesses.

Twenty minutes of research - all I have for now - doesn't give a definitive answer. I would go with "objective", though. The case law supports the actual language Lange requests: "During the time period alleged in the count Elaine Brown was under an unlawful and present threat of death or serious bodily injury." Not "believed she was", but "was". See, e.g., United States v. Deleveaux, 205 F.3d 1292 (11th Cir. 2000); United States v. White, 552 F.3d 240 (2d Cir. 2009). That sounds like an objective standard. If so, that's going to be exceedingly difficult to meet.

As for the discussion with JRB over state-of-mind hearsay, I don't think we're saying very different things. Iff Elaine's state of mind is relevant at all, the only witnesses who could testify to what otherwise would be hearsay were those present at the time of the charged events. Those folks clearly have a privilege to refuse to answer, and would have to be fools not to claim it.

Hmm. What else would they have to be?
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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby Imalawman » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:54 pm

Dan also raises another good point - where can we obtain said Constitution Ranger mousepads?

This should be an interesting trial. I think its unavoidable that at some time Ed will be tossed from the courtroom. Whatever they're paying his lawyer - it's not enough.
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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby Pottapaug1938 » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:57 pm

Imalawman wrote:Dan also raises another good point - where can we obtain said Constitution Ranger mousepads?

This should be an interesting trial. I think its unavoidable that at some time Ed will be tossed from the courtroom. Whatever they're paying his lawyer - it's not enough.


I can only think of one possible benefit to being the standby defense lawyer in this case. No matter what the rest of the lawyer's legal career is like, it is unlikely to feature a case which tries his or her patience and sanity like this one does.
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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby webhick » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:21 pm

Imalawman wrote:Dan also raises another good point - where can we obtain said Constitution Ranger mousepads?


They must be handing them out as door prizes at the courthouse.
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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby Mr. Mephistopheles » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:26 pm

webhick wrote:
Imalawman wrote:Dan also raises another good point - where can we obtain said Constitution Ranger mousepads?


They must be handing them out as door prizes at the courthouse.


Or hanging them in the toilet stalls.... :shock:

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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby grixit » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:28 pm

Isn't Ed the only one who ever threatened Elaine?
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Demosthenes
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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby Demosthenes » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:30 pm

Updated with yesterday's stuff:

http://www.redcrayons.net/
Demo.

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Demosthenes
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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby Demosthenes » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:24 pm

Today.

Best day yet.
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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby webhick » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:36 pm

Demosthenes wrote:Today.

Best day yet.


You managed to procure that door that ErsatzAnatchist was obsessed over?
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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby Dr. Caligari » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:55 pm

Best day yet.


Eagerly awaiting update.
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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby Pottapaug1938 » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:48 pm

In the meantime, check out http://www.concordmonitor.com and read the article about the :Browns. There are some wonderfully unhinged comments from Joe Haas, which by themselves are worth the time to check out the site.

I'm about to suggest starting a pool to pick the date on which this basket case gets disbarred....
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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby webhick » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:53 pm

UGA Lawdog wrote:Haas is an attorney? In which state?


Frickintardistan*


*Shamelessly stolen from ENM
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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby The Observer » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:34 pm

webhick wrote:
UGA Lawdog wrote:Haas is an attorney? In which state?


Frickintardistan


As well as Whackistan.
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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby LPC » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:52 pm

Demosthenes wrote:Today.

Best day yet.

Tease.

And just to clarify/confirm: Your description of "Day 3" is your second entry for the trial, because you skipped jury selection. And although the entry is dated July 2, it's a description of the events of July 1, which was Day 3. Right?
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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby Gregg » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:18 pm

Okay, someone go drag the meloncat outta the bar and get her in front of a keyboard, I have absolutely no patience for the tease, I NEED MY FIX!

:mrgreen:

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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby Nikki » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:50 pm

Gregg wrote:Okay, someone go drag the meloncat outta the bar and get her in front of a keyboard, I have absolutely no patience for the tease, I NEED MY FIX!

:mrgreen:

(decaf, I know, decaf)


Never, ever, do not even THINK ABOUT, step between Demosthenes and an apple martini (or other carefully chosen libation du jour).

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Demosthenes
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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby Demosthenes » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:55 pm

LPC wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:Today.

Best day yet.

Tease.

And just to clarify/confirm: Your description of "Day 3" is your second entry for the trial, because you skipped jury selection. And although the entry is dated July 2, it's a description of the events of July 1, which was Day 3. Right?


I've edited the titles to clarify. I'm posting my notes a few hours after the events take place each night. Since I'm a night owl, I often blog after midnight (which means my mornings in court are ... unpleasant.)
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grixit
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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby grixit » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:05 am

webhick wrote:
UGA Lawdog wrote:Haas is an attorney? In which state?


Frickintardistan*

*Shamelessly stolen from ENM


Actually, i was the one who named that particular state of mind, but of course it is based on the phrase "frikin tard", which is not mine.
I voted for Hillary, and i didn't even get a stupid tshirt!

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Re: The Brown criminal trial

Postby Pottapaug1938 » Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:27 am

UGA Lawdog wrote:Haas is an attorney? In which state?


State of Profound Mental Derangement. He is a resident of Schizoid County.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture." -- Pastor Ray Mummert, Dover, PA, during an attempt to introduce creationism -- er, "intelligent design", into the Dover Public Schools


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