How does the lacking of a jurat effect IRS?

A collection of old posts from all forums. No new threads or new posts in old threads allowed. For archive use only.
Kimokeo

How does the lacking of a jurat effect IRS?

Post by Kimokeo »

What is your opinion regarding a missing jurat when it pertains to either owing money or expecting money back?

The IRC provides that no interest can be paid on an overpayment if the return is unprocessable 6611(g), but it does allow interest on an underpayment - I have found no exception.

Does the IRC have anything regarding missing jurats regarding whether a refund is even allowed compared to billing notices and enforcement to collect?

Bills and enforcement occur even when the return is unsigned, but what about refunds with no signature?
Famspear
Knight Templar of the Sacred Tax
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Texas

Post by Famspear »

Here's a quick, dirty answer.

Generally, without the jurat, the purported "return" is not a valid income tax return. Not being a valid income tax return, the "purported return" does not constitute a valid administrative claim for refund.

So, if the IRS handles it properly, the IRS would not issue a refund. The IRS service center would probably just send the "non-jurat return" back to the taxpayer. --Famspear
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
Famspear
Knight Templar of the Sacred Tax
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Texas

Post by Famspear »

Here's a case....

Mosher v. Internal Revenue Serv., 775 F.2d 1292, 85-2 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 9774 (5th Cir. 1985), cert. denied, 475 U.S. 1123 (1986).

--Famspear
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
Famspear
Knight Templar of the Sacred Tax
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Texas

Post by Famspear »

Here are a few more cases:

Borgeson v. United States, 757 F.2d 1071, 85-1 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 9307 (10th Cir. 1985) (per curiam);

Hettig v. United States, 845 F.2d 794, 88-1 U.S. Tax Cas. (CCH) paragr. 9335 (8th Cir. 1988).

--Famspear
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
Kimokeo

Post by Kimokeo »

What is the purpose of IRC 6611(g)?
Quixote
Quatloosian Master of Deception
Posts: 1542
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2003 2:00 am
Location: Sanhoudalistan

Post by Quixote »

Kimokeo wrote:What is the purpose of IRC 6611(g)?
To prevent the interest clock from running until the IRS has a return it can actually process. 6611(g) requires considerably more than just a signature.
"Here is a fundamental question to ask yourself- what is the goal of the income tax scam? I think it is a means to extract wealth from the masses and give it to a parasite class." Skankbeat
Quixote
Quatloosian Master of Deception
Posts: 1542
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2003 2:00 am
Location: Sanhoudalistan

Post by Quixote »

Does the IRC have anything regarding missing jurats regarding whether a refund is even allowed compared to billing notices and enforcement to collect?
6402(a) authorizes (obligates?) the Secretary to refund overpayments. It says nothing about the Secretary needing a claim for refund. However, as a practical matter, most determinations that an overpayment exists are based on tax returns, which, if properly signed, are claims for refund. If a tax return is filed without a signature, how does the Secretary know who filed it? He doesn't. The policy of processing returns showing tax due but lack a signature is probably based on the common sense notion that if the assessment is incorrect, the taxpayer will let the IRS know. Taxpayers are less likely to complain about an erroneous refund.
"Here is a fundamental question to ask yourself- what is the goal of the income tax scam? I think it is a means to extract wealth from the masses and give it to a parasite class." Skankbeat
Famspear
Knight Templar of the Sacred Tax
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Texas

Post by Famspear »

Yes, a document can be a valid Federal income tax return (and, if it includes a refund claim, can constitute an administrative claim for refund) and yet not be "processible" by the IRS service center.

For example, if there is no social security number on the return, the return could still be legally valid for various legal purposes (such as the commencement of the running of the statutory period of limitations on assessment of additional tax, the satisfaction of the "timely filed return" requirement, etc.) and yet not be processible.

I believe subsection (g) simply modifies the general rule that interest on an overpayment claimed as a refund begins running on the date of the overpayment where a valid return is timely filed. See, generally, 6611(b).

If a valid return is not timely filed, the interest does not start running on the date of the overpayment; the interest cannot begin running until the date on which the late, valid return is filed. I think what subsection (g) does, at least in part, is to account for the situation where a valid return is timely filed but is not processible -- and the subsequent processible version of the return isn't received by the IRS until after the filing deadline. In such a case, the timely filed return is simply treated as a late return for the limited purpose of computing interest, so that the interest won't start accumulating until the date on which the IRS receives a processible version. The subsequent processible version is treated as "the return" -- and (if received after the filing deadline where the unprocessible but valid return was received before the deadline) is treated as a "late filed but valid return" for purposes of the interest calculation.

I think. --Famspear
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
Kimokeo

Post by Kimokeo »

Back to my original question:

"Does the IRC have anything regarding missing jurats regarding whether a refund is even allowed "

If the signature is missing, is the secretary allowed to issue the refund?
Famspear
Knight Templar of the Sacred Tax
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Texas

Post by Famspear »

Does the IRC have anything regarding missing jurats regarding whether a refund is even allowed "

If the signature is missing, is the secretary allowed to issue the refund?
Well, I think I've already answered those questions. If the taxpayer has not filed a valid claim for refund, the Secretary cannot generally legally issue a refund, or at least the Secretary should not be issuing a refund. Since the refund claim is made on a valid tax return, you cannot have a valid claim for refund if there is no valid tax return. And you cannot have a valid tax return if there is no jurat. That's basically what the courts indicated in the cases cited above.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
Famspear
Knight Templar of the Sacred Tax
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Texas

Post by Famspear »

Oh, Kimokeo, I may have misread your last question. Is you asking about the situation where just the signature is missing? In that case, I believe the document still would not be a valid tax return, which brings us to the same result as if the taxpayer "signed" the return -- but with the jurat missing.

If it's an unsigned return, then it's not a valid return, and therefore it cannot be a valid tax refund claim. Without a valid tax refund claim, the IRS generally is not obligated to issue a refund. (I realize that this doesn't mean that a refund might not be issued erroneously, due to clerical error, etc., at the IRS.)

Section 6061 requires that a return be "signed." Section 6065 requires the jurat. --Famspear
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
Kimokeo

Post by Kimokeo »

Thanks Famspear. Especially for the Code Sections.
Famspear
Knight Templar of the Sacred Tax
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Texas

Post by Famspear »

You're welcome. I hope my explanation made sense.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet