Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alaska

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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby Gregg » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:16 pm

Grenades are legal? What in the world is a legitimate civilian use for a hand grenade?
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby webhick » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:22 pm

Gregg wrote:Grenades are legal? What in the world is a legitimate civilian use for a hand grenade?


Cocktail parties, duh.
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby bmielke » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:44 pm

Gregg wrote:Grenades are legal? What in the world is a legitimate civilian use for a hand grenade?


As I understand it they are listed as a Destructive Device and require a $200 tax stamp.

DD's don't have to have "Legitmate Civilian" uses beyond collector's value.
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby bmielke » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:53 pm

Let me just add that, if I had the money, I would own many things that most folks would not understand the need for, but grenades are one thing that I would not own, they scare me.
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby JamesVincent » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:18 pm

Dont grenades and other such party toys fall under a Class 3 license? There used to be a store in Baltimore which dealt in items beyond what you would find in Dick's sporting goods. M-60 anyone? Or a SAW since the ammo is cheaper.
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby GlimDropper » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:21 pm

bmielke wrote:Glim great post.

Let me point out that Silencers and Grenades are legal with the proper paperwork and taxes. Which I would guess they did have. I would not be surprised if "Bill", assuming he has an FFL, set these guys up. If I was a gun dealer and a bunch of yahoos came in looking for hardware without the paperwork I would drop a dime to the ATF.


Thanks bmielke,

Just from reading the respective indictments (linked in my previous post) I don't know that I'd assume they had requisite paperwork, or at least the indictments assume they don't. The state indictment mentions for example that the tripod mounted 50 caliber machine gun Cox is alleged to have possessed can be legally owned but stated he was not believed to have owned it legally.

There's been a fair amount of speculation about William "DropZone Bill" Fulton in Alaska papers the last few days. The Alaska Dispatch published this rather lengthy article two days ago describing Fulton as the Alaska militia's "Supply Sargent." He was defiantly a respected member and his disappearance caused concern (presumably for his safety) in their online forum. The Alaska Dispatch story I linked to does hint at some possible collusion between Fulton and the Feds, speaking with Wayne Anthony Ross, the attorney who worked with Fulton to transfer ownership of his surplus buisness the article states:

Now, as more details emerge as to the arrests of six Fairbanks-area militia members, including references in criminal indictments to unnamed militia members who appear to have helped state and federal authorities, some are beginning to wonder whether Fulton is connected to the investigation.

"That would be a good question to ask and a good question to get answered," said Ross, who also holds a power of attorney signed by Fulton giving him control of the two houses Fulton owns in Anchorage.

"You're not just off on a folly of your own here," said Ross, a well-known defense attorney and Alaska's attorney general for the briefest of periods.

Ross will say little else about his client's mysterious and sudden disappearance. He did say he'd heard the rumors that Fulton is either wanted by authorities in connection with the Fairbanks case or that he is being protected as a witness.

"If that was true,'' Ross said, "that would answer the question as to why he disappeared. I think the FBI would be the one to answer.''

Anyone involved as a federal undercover operative monitoring Alaska militias -- or even suspected of being an informant -- might do well to disappear, Ross further suggested.

There are no charges pending against Fulton, according to both FBI spokesman Eric Gonzales in Anchorage and Lt. Dave Parker of the Anchorage Police Department.

As to questions about witness protection, Gonzales said, "if he were (there), we wouldn't be allowed to comment on that.''


From what I understand travel time between Anchorage and Fairbanks is such that flight is an attractive option. The state indictment, which addresses more of the conspiracy aspects of the case therefore mentions the FBI recordings makes it pretty clear that if Mr.Fulton was working with the investigation he couldn't have been the only one. There were too many recordings in too many locations around Fairbanks for that to be the case.

Norman Olson is anther interesting person in the mix, he's described as being the founder of the Alaska Citizen's Militia and it looks like he played a similar role in founding the Michigan militia in the 1990s. He seems to be a rather cagey individual, careful in the words he chooses and encouraging others to do likewise. From the same article above:

In an interview last week, Olson continued to puzzle over what has happened to Fulton. He does not, however, believe anyone involved with the militias is after him.

He's also not convinced Fulton is the mole that militia members feel certain betrayed Cox and the others. The feds, Olson believes, regularly use disinformation to try to undermine militia groups across the country.

"It's all speculation,'' he said. "It tears apart the fabric of our solidarity. I believe this is all a setup. I know Schaeffer. He's a gentle man.''


Which is a perfectly responsible thing to say to a newspaper reporter. But other things he says almost boarder on the sort of double speak for which we reward politicians on election campaigns with national office. Am I reading something into this post from their Google group which isn't really there?:

From what I can strain out of all the lies and mistruths of the media, it would appear that
Schaeffer was okay when he walked out of the courtroom, refusing to recognize the authority
of the Alaska Judicial Commercial Court. He had two charges against him, both were
Class B misdemeanors. Once he went into hiding, the talk got loose and the "241 Plan"
was concocted. Was it Schaeffer who developed the plan alone, or was he coached?
I know Schaeffer personally and I know that he is a gentleman who doesn't cut other people
off or interrupt. If "what-if's" and "plans" were openly talked about, I don't think Schaeffer
would stand up and admonish those who are talking. But understand also that Schaeffer
was under enormous strain. He was on the run, and exiled, and in hiding. The burden on
him involved his wife and children. He was weary and was subject to suggestion.
(I know this because I was in this condition after the Oklahoma City Bombing.)
According to the ADN article, the Feb 12, someone was recording conversations.
Ah, "up jumps the devil!!" in this whole affair. Once you find out who did the recording, you'll know who controlled
the discussion and called the shots. Remember the Hutaree? The same thing went
down with them. A small group, infiltrated by a stooge, a recording, a "241 Plan."
It's all so familiar.
If you'll remember the LeRoy Sweitzer incident with the Freemen of Montana, you'll
recognize the pattern. In that case, the Freemen were creating and filing bogus liens
in an effort to collect money. When the Jordan County Sheriff called the feds, things went
out of control. The feds responded (as they gleefully and willingly do), setting up a
10 mile perimeter around the ranch where the entire gang of "paper hangers" were
hold up. The local sheriff lost control and the feds took over.
Fairbanks Police Chief Zager had control and would have arrested Schaeffer on
the bench warrant to appear and the weapons violation (failure to announce) but
when the people who were surrounding Schaeffer began to talk about harming a federal
judge, the lid blew off the matter and it was quickly turned over the FBI and federal
marshals. Once the feds got involved, their handlers demanded quick action.
Chief Zager was willing to wait this thing out. There was no terrible urgency to
send his men in. Same with the Troopers. They too were willing to wait, knowing
that Schaeffer would eventually show up somewhere to be arrested without
a struggle. BUT SOMEONE STARTED TALKING about things that would bring
in the federalees. And SOMEONE was recording the loose talk.

Looking at it in hind-sight, there are important lessons to be learned.
Number 1 - Do not, under any circumstances short of open conflict, discuss
operational plans. Do not speculate. Do not become vengeful.
In today's world, careless talk around a campfire can be used
as a "conspiracy to commit" charge. As Ray pointed out, in a barroom
you threaten whoever you want, but once you are part of a militia, you
are closely watched and listened to.
Do not discuss in small groups what is contrary to the militia's stated
operational format.
Number 2 - Should you decide to "lay low" and go into hiding, be sure to remember
that you are never REALLY among friends who will protect you absolutely.
It is logical that if YOU are the one hiding, you are imposing your beliefs
on others who may be reluctant to agree totally with you, for if they did, they'd
be in hiding also.
Remember that the people hiding you are also being threatened with
prosecution and when your cover is blown via children, neighbors, associations
or surveillance the people hiding you will be approached by the government to
set you up for something bigger.

I've seen dozens of people fall to the same mistakes.
In Idaho, Randy Weaver was caught up in an "illegal" transaction involving a shotgun which led
to the ATF and FBI raid that killed his son and wife.
In western Michigan, three militia members
where arrested for just talking about attacking infrastructure. One man recorded the conversation
and went to the feds.
In central Michigan, good militia members were drawn into a meeting with plans on how to destroy
foreign equipment temporarily stored at the Grayling Air National Guard base. One man in the
group went to the feds.
In Southern Michigan, the Hutaree were infiltrated and offered fancy firearms, etc. He also
initiated and recorded a discussion about threatening LEO's at a funeral. He was a plant.

In every case, and more which I have witnessed through the years, the loose talk and threats
and the discussion of "plans" eventually led to the downfall of that group. Remember always that
"The Third Man IS Listening"

Ray and I have worked hard with militia across the country to give strict attention to
Communication Security (COMSEC) and Operational Security (OPSEC).

Bottom line: It is needless and senseless to develop a plan and to talk about it if that
mere existence of the plan is enough to trigger a visit from the federalees. How many
groups have be destroyed by a plan they never got to implement? You can bet that
the federalees are in "pre-emptive" mode all the time. They have unlimited resources
and technology. You can also bet that after this bust becomes the stuff of bragging
rights by "Alaska's Finest" that Alaska will receive all the authority and support
and funding needed to beef up its surveillance on each and every one of us. Each and
every militia member should sincerely believe that he/she is being monitored and
watched.
That thought alone should be adequate warning to watch what we say and do.

Norm Olson


He seems to be saying, don't blame the people who said what they did, blame the person with the microphone for making them say those things. Then goes on to warn his people not to talk about what they may or may not be planning to do. But it seems the militia members took Oslon's message about COMSEC to heart, the Cox topic on their Alaska Citizens Militia Google group which might otherwise be expected to be a hot topic hasn't been posted to in nine days.
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby bmielke » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:27 pm

GlimDropper wrote:
bmielke wrote:Glim great post.

Let me point out that Silencers and Grenades are legal with the proper paperwork and taxes. Which I would guess they did have. I would not be surprised if "Bill", assuming he has an FFL, set these guys up. If I was a gun dealer and a bunch of yahoos came in looking for hardware without the paperwork I would drop a dime to the ATF.


Thanks bmielke,

Just from reading the respective indictments (linked in my previous post) I don't know that I'd assume they had requisite paperwork, or at least the indictments assume they don't. The state indictment mentions for example that the tripod mounted 50 caliber machine gun Cox is alleged to have possessed can be legally owned but stated he was not believed to have owned it legally.


Should have been did not have, I will edit the above post.

I have no doubt the grenades and guns were illegal.
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby Gregg » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:31 pm

JamesVincent wrote:Dont grenades and other such party toys fall under a Class 3 license? There used to be a store in Baltimore which dealt in items beyond what you would find in Dick's sporting goods. M-60 anyone? Or a SAW since the ammo is cheaper.


AN M60 might be grandfathered in but 'm pretty sure anything fully automatic is not legal to buy anymore, although if you own one from before the law they didn't come take it away. A SAW was new in the 80s and I would guess it came after the law that made it pretty much impossible to get a new fully automatic weapon. Some of the gun owners, collectors or NRA types may know better than what I think I have heard or read over the years. I'm pretty much pro guns, and think I'm right of center on gun owners rights, but I never thought the second amendment applied to anti-aircraft missiles or low grade tactical nukes....or grenades for that matter. Can I get claymores to repel the kids who play in my creek?
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby JamesVincent » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:41 pm

Gregg wrote: Can I get claymores to repel the kids who play in my creek?


You know, I never thought of that. Maybe that would get rid of the teenagers who come and drink in the far part of our swamp.
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby bmielke » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:10 pm

Gregg wrote:
JamesVincent wrote:Dont grenades and other such party toys fall under a Class 3 license? There used to be a store in Baltimore which dealt in items beyond what you would find in Dick's sporting goods. M-60 anyone? Or a SAW since the ammo is cheaper.


AN M60 might be grandfathered in but 'm pretty sure anything fully automatic is not legal to buy anymore, although if you own one from before the law they didn't come take it away. A SAW was new in the 80s and I would guess it came after the law that made it pretty much impossible to get a new fully automatic weapon. Some of the gun owners, collectors or NRA types may know better than what I think I have heard or read over the years. I'm pretty much pro guns, and think I'm right of center on gun owners rights, but I never thought the second amendment applied to anti-aircraft missiles or low grade tactical nukes....or grenades for that matter. Can I get claymores to repel the kids who play in my creek?


All legally transferrable (to Civilians) Full auto weapons must have been manufactured and registered prior to 1986. I don't think you can get a SAW. I am not sure about Claymores, I am only sure about grenades because a gun dealer posted an FAQ about NFA items on a gun board that I occassionally hang out on and he mentioned Fragmentation Grenades as one item you could theoretically buy if you could find a dealer.
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby bmielke » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:10 pm

FAIRBANKS — The FBI used two informants when investigating the alleged “241” murder plot, according to federal court documents unsealed Friday.

One informant was promoted to the “command staff” of Francis “Schaeffer “ Cox’s Peacemakers Militia in February; the other was sought out as a source of weapons in Anchorage, according to the documents.

Both confidential sources were compensated and will be compensated in the future, according to the documents. Both had been working with the FBI for about 10 months, but were not aware that the other source was working for the FBI

Read more: Fairbanks Daily News-Miner - Documents Two informants helped FBI in Fairbanks 241 militia bust


http://www.newsminer.com/view/full_story/12537067/article-Documents--Two-informants-helped-FBI-in-Fairbanks--241--militia-bust?instance=home_news_window_left_top_1
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby Gregg » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:04 am

I guess "241" kind of worked out to the number of stoolies per militiaman. :D
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby GlimDropper » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:48 pm

From yesterdays Alaska Dispatch:

Fourth search warrant unsealed in Fairbanks militia case

The fourth federal search warrant to be unsealed in connection with weapons and murder plot charges levied earlier this month in federal court against a handful of Fairbanks-based militia members reveals new details about how Lonnie and Karen Vernon of Salcha allegedly planned to kill a federal judge and his family members. The new documents also show that the Vernons were betrayed by someone they knew. One of the informants the government used to build its case was not only a member of the Alaska Peacekeeper Militia, a group Vernon and others charged in the case belong to, but was also a coworker of Lonnie Vernon's on a recent construction job.

<Snip>

As the Vernons were dealing with the tax case and talking about murdering the federal judge and IRS agent involved in it, they were also giving shelter to self-described militia leader Schaeffer Cox, who was on the run from a misdemeanor weapons charge, authorities allege.

It is during this time that in the Vernons' home and elsewhere, twin killing sprees were being formulated, according to Special Agent Patrick Westerhaus of the FBI: The Vernons' attack on the feds, fueled by their tax situation, and Cox's desire to wreak his own revenge on state officials for their attempts to hold him accountable in court for the weapons charge.


(Link to the rest of the article)

And on a lighter note:

Charges filed against one of Schaeffer Cox's militia followers

FAIRBANKS — A member of Francis Schaeffer Cox’s Peacemaker’s militia was charged with a pair of misdemeanor offenses for delivering fake court documents to court officials, including a purported restraining order demanding that law enforcement officers stay 1,000 feet from Cox.

The papers were delivered in December and January while the district court was preparing to try Cox on a misdemeanor weapons charge.

Kenneth R. Thesing was issued summons on Friday to face two counts of “simulating legal process,” the crime of sending fake court documents with the intent of causing the recipient to take an action.

Many of the documents are signed by Cox and address his belief that he is a sovereign citizen and not subject to the state court. In the documents, Cox refers to a trial held for him at the Fairbanks Denny’s Restaurant by members of his Alaska Assembly Post group.

Each count of simulating legal process is a class A misdemeanor, punishable by a maximum of one year in jail.

Read more: Fairbanks Daily News-Miner - Charges filed against one of Schaeffer Cox's militia followers


I could have sworn I heard some guru somewhere insist that where a de jure grand jury exists it displaces the de facto grand jury, he even misquoted the Corpus Juris Secundum completely out of context to prove it. I bet this wont keep Tim Turner's dJgJ's from trying to arrest other judges but at least it should let them some of what charges they'll face when they try.
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby notorial dissent » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:36 am

I swear, there must be something about Dennys as it seems to be a recurring theme with this crowd.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby The Observer » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:39 pm

notorial dissent wrote:I swear, there must be something about Dennys as it seems to be a recurring theme with this crowd.


"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." - H.L. Mencken


So it goes with Denny's. Horrible food, horrible service, but it is cheap - and thus attracts our fluttering paytriots like moths to a candle.
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby Pottapaug1938 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:49 pm

I absolutely love it when a paytriot or TDer cites Corpus Juris Secundum (or even better, Corpus Juris) or some legal dictionary as The Legal Authority for their idiocies. I wasn't a month into law school when I learned that CJS, AmJur in its various editions, and legal dictionaries are not "the law", but instead are resources to find the law.

It was made clear to me that if I cited, for example, an entry in CJS as the authority for something that I was trying to argue in court, I might at best get an annoyed question from the judge asking me for citations to actual appellate cases if I wanted him (or her) to consider my assertions.
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby Quixote » Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:18 pm

notorial dissent wrote:I swear, there must be something about Dennys as it seems to be a recurring theme with this crowd.


The all you can eat pancakes are only $4, an important consideration when your common law jury expects to be fed. And they're open all night. A common law court convening at 3 a.m. is likely to be noticed only by a few crackheads and off duty strippers.
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby wserra » Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:22 pm

Quixote wrote:The all you can eat pancakes are only $4, an important consideration when your common law jury expects to be fed. And they're open all night. A common law court convening at 3 a.m. is likely to be noticed only by a few crackheads and off duty strippers.


The "crackheads and off duty strippers" are the common law jury.
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby Prof » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:42 pm

wserra wrote:
Quixote wrote:The all you can eat pancakes are only $4, an important consideration when your common law jury expects to be fed. And they're open all night. A common law court convening at 3 a.m. is likely to be noticed only by a few crackheads and off duty strippers.


The "crackheads and off duty strippers" are the common law jury.


This is Alaska -- "methheads," not "crackheads."
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Re: Federal and State LEOs arrest sovereign citizens in Alas

Postby notorial dissent » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:56 am

Quixote, I suspect that you are right, I always thought their coffee should have been listed as a controlled substance. I also have to admit to having not set foot in one in quite some many years, but the description of the late night crowd sounds about right from what I remember, and sounds about like a "common law' jury makeup, and would certainly explain a great deal.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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