May I respctfully begin a new thread?

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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby wserra » Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:51 pm

pigpot wrote:Where does it all end up. Any ideas?


Where does what "all end up"?

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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby AndyK » Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:24 pm

pigpot wrote:
AndyK wrote:
...
Until you come up with a bullet-proof plan to eliminate the NEED for an income tax, you are just wasting electrons by arguing against it.
I

f ---

Can't I ---

If --


The substance of your reply (quoted above) seems to lack any PLAN except for possibly conjuring up castles in the clouds.

With respect to fee-for-service, perhaps you could research the early days of fire-fighting in Philadelphia, PA, USA.

The fire companies were fee-in-advance-for-service (similar to insurance) and the results were often not pretty.

Also, look into the early turnpikes, ferries, and private bridges and how well they worked.

Finally, let's do a house swap. You are now visiting -- say -- Canada and a Canadian is in your counrty. How does the fee-for-federal-services plan work?

You need to come up with a workable, sustainable plan OR stop whining.
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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby Judge Roy Bean » Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:28 pm

pigpot wrote: ... I'm just looking for the end game. Where does it all end up. Any ideas?


About where it is now.
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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby Judge Roy Bean » Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:39 pm

pigpot wrote:...
Why must the government take my income away at source without consent for things I may never need?


Because that's what the elected representatives established as one of the government's sources of revenue and methods of wealth redistribution.
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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby Pottapaug1938 » Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:30 pm

AndyK wrote:
pigpot wrote:
AndyK wrote:
...
Until you come up with a bullet-proof plan to eliminate the NEED for an income tax, you are just wasting electrons by arguing against it.
I

f ---

Can't I ---

If --


The substance of your reply (quoted above) seems to lack any PLAN except for possibly conjuring up castles in the clouds.

With respect to fee-for-service, perhaps you could research the early days of fire-fighting in Philadelphia, PA, USA.

The fire companies were fee-in-advance-for-service (similar to insurance) and the results were often not pretty.

Also, look into the early turnpikes, ferries, and private bridges and how well they worked.

Finally, let's do a house swap. You are now visiting -- say -- Canada and a Canadian is in your counrty. How does the fee-for-federal-services plan work?

You need to come up with a workable, sustainable plan OR stop whining.


I am recalling my honeymoon visit to Bath, in England, in 1977. Several of the old houses had "firemarks", showing that you had contracted with an insurance company for fire protection. I recall that Boston, Massachusetts once had a similar system in its early days. If you didn't have fire insurance, you had to pay to have your house fire put out before your house burned to the ground; and if you couldn't -- or if your company's firefighters were busy elsewhere -- too bad for you. I alo recall hearing stories of different fire companies brawling in the streets (while the fvire was raging) to win the exclusive right to extinguish a fire. Eventually, most communities decided that it was best if the community ran the local fire department, whether it be a professional or a volunteer department.

That's all I'm going to say, unless Pigpot comes up with something worthy of a response -- but I'm not holding my breath to await anything like that.
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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby Hyrion » Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:56 pm

Well.... I believe Pigpot has proven himself.

Pigpot Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:27 am wrote:I'd rather stick to empirical evidence and facts

And yet, Pigpot has decided that someone can use the facilities/services/etc. of society without having to contribute to their upkeep via taxes:

Pigpot Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:30 am wrote:So the man / woman sends the NOTICE back to it's place of origin stating that he doesn't care about the non-payment of income tax or the threat of Court action as he hasn't harmed another person and therefore no loss, harm or injury has occurred. Remember, that still at this point no-one has had harm, loss or injury occur to them.

Pigpot keeps claiming no harm or injury has occurred over and over again when the individual chooses not to pay her/his taxes as though that is fact. Unfortunately for Pigpot it's a "fact" easily proven to be wrong.

Just one example of how that fact is wrong.

    Fact: Public roads must be maintained or they fall into disrepair becoming less usable over time till eventually nature sprouts green growing things and takes back what it once had
    Fact: That repair costs in time, effort and materials - someone must compensate someone else for that repair work
    Fact: Since public roads belong to the Society, the Society has a responsibility to see to the payment (compensation) for the road maintenance
    Fact: Since everyone ultimately uses said public roads, it is the responsibility of every member of Society to pay for the maintenance
    Fact: This is done via taxation
So what happens when person X refuses to pay their fair share of taxes?

    Person X is causing financial harm to every other member of Society because every other member is being forced - by Person X - to pay for Person X's use of the public roads
So Pigpot can claim "no harm" 10 times, 100 times, 1,000 times in a single post - but the reality very much is that harm is indeed occurring whether or not Pigpot wishes to acknowledge said harm.

Pigpot claims to want provable facts, yet Pigpot resorts to poor assumptions and then expects others to treat those assumptions as fact when they are very much incorrect.

And that's just one example of where taxes go to support Public services that Pigpots hypothetical tax-refuser is very much making use of and wanting Society to cover the tax-refusers share.

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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby grixit » Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:34 pm

"Hey! Gronk drink funny water from fruit pile again! Gronk running crazy, waving club, screaming like wounded mastodon!"

"That dangerous, bring everyone. We catch Gronk, take away club!"

"Gronk call us statists if do that!"

"Don't care!"
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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby Dr. Caligari » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:33 am

pigpot wrote:What about the film, "In time". Can't pay? Die. Chairman of Nestle says water is not a human right and it should be privatised. (Watch it on Youtube). Can't PAY for water? DIE. Great idea eh!


That's your idea, pigpot. Without income taxes, everyone would have to pay for water, and people who couldn't afford it wouldn't get water (or would, at best, get water of dubious purity).

In your I-only-use-the-services-I-pay-for world, who would protect you if someone tried to rob you in the street (so they could pay for water)? Would you have to pay for round-the-clock security services?
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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby Pottapaug1938 » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:50 am

Dr. Caligari wrote:
pigpot wrote:What about the film, "In time". Can't pay? Die. Chairman of Nestle says water is not a human right and it should be privatised. (Watch it on Youtube). Can't PAY for water? DIE. Great idea eh!


That's your idea, pigpot. Without income taxes, everyone would have to pay for water, and people who couldn't afford it wouldn't get water (or would, at best, get water of dubious purity).

In your I-only-use-the-services-I-pay-for world, who would protect you if someone tried to rob you in the street (so they could pay for water)? Would you have to pay for round-the-clock security services?


Water, for most communities in Greater Boston, comes from the Quabbin Reservoir in western Massachusetts (my Facebook name comes from a mountain in one of the towns flooded in 1939-46 to create Quabbin). Had Quabbin not been built, AT GREAT TAXPAYER EXPENSE, we would be lucky to have water of dubious quality; and even that would have to be filtered and treated AT GREAT TAXPAYER EXPENSE. If we had no government-supplied water supplies, companies like Nestle would surely offer to supply what was needed -- at a rate ensuring a handsome profit for itself, high compensation for its executives and a sexy return on capital for shareholders.
Last edited by Pottapaug1938 on Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby Jeffrey » Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:23 am

Hell let's assume he doesn't use roads. Let's say he lives on a farm and never leaves like a certain Freeman in Canada is proposing.

Computer he's using to type and argue on with us, was manufactured and built somewhere in Asia. Shipping that to where he lives requires clear shipping lanes which are provided by a very expensive U.S. Navy, the trade between say China and U.S. is made possibly and regulated by treaties written by congress and signed by the President, all funded by income tax. The fact that computers even exist, a product of years of expensive R&D funded by federal government years before Pigpot was even born. Let's say he wants to go offgrid as say, Dean Clifford attempted to, those solar panels he'll buy, product of years of government research into increasing solar efficiency and reducing costs, and more than likely, shipped here from China.

It's a completely untenable position to suddenly say, be born into a first world country in the 80's, reach adulthood with an education funded by taxes, with no major health issues thanks to first world medicine and decide, hey fuck it, I know all this shit I use and enjoy was funded by decades of taxes paid by previous generations, but I don't want to pay diddly.

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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby pigpot » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:00 am

Pottapaug1938 wrote:
Dr. Caligari wrote:
pigpot wrote:What about the film, "In time". Can't pay? Die. Chairman of Nestle says water is not a human right and it should be privatised. (Watch it on Youtube). Can't PAY for water? DIE. Great idea eh!


That's your idea, pigpot. Without income taxes, everyone would have to pay for water, and people who couldn't afford it wouldn't get water (or would, at best, get water of dubious purity).

In your I-only-use-the-services-I-pay-for world, who would protect you if someone tried to rob you in the street (so they could pay for water)? Would you have to pay for round-the-clock security services?


Water, for most communities in Greater Boston, comes from the Quabbin Reservoir in western Massachusetts (my Facebook name comes from a mountain in one of the towns flooded in 1939-46 to create Quabbin). Had Quabbin not been built, AT GREAT TAXPAYER EXPENSE, we would be lucky to have water of dubious quality; and even that would have to be filtered and treated AT GREAT TAXPAYER EXPENSE. If we had no government-supplied water supplies, companies like Nestle would surely offer to supply what was needed -- at a rate ensuring a handsome profit for itself, high compensation for its executives and a sexy return on capital for shareholders.


Excuse my ignorance. What am I paying my rates for and every other tax as well. It seems like a huge bottomless pit (National Debt) which to the more cynical may seem to be keeping them in servitude. Not me, I'm not saying that but that's where this discontent comes from.

Same as the idea of "Nations" borrowing money from the IMF etc. Why aren't they printing money themselves and distributing it interest free. If someone is lent $100,000 and is expected to pay back the principal plus compound interest how are they EVER going to pay back more than they were initially given. The only way is by someone losing out. Call it Africa.

This is where people like the GOODF'ers are turning up and spitting their dummies out at the banks because they don't see fairness in the system. I'm currently quite ambivalent towards the whole thing but these people aren't. Most of them vote for people like the tosser Russell Brand (or more realistically the political puppet he represents) and get upset when they don't win. Well more fool them for voting in the first place I reckon.
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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby Burnaby49 » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:46 am

This is where people like the GOODF'ers are turning up and spitting their dummies out at the banks because they don't see fairness in the system. I'm currently quite ambivalent towards the whole thing but these people aren't. Most of them vote for people like the tosser Russell Brand (or more realistically the political puppet he represents) and get upset when they don't win. Well more fool them for voting in the first place I reckon.


The tosser Russell Brand? OK Pigpot, stop this, you're scaring me. You've made a comment I agree with and I don't want that to happen again. That road leads to madness.
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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby pigpot » Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:49 am

Burnaby49 wrote:
This is where people like the GOODF'ers are turning up and spitting their dummies out at the banks because they don't see fairness in the system. I'm currently quite ambivalent towards the whole thing but these people aren't. Most of them vote for people like the tosser Russell Brand (or more realistically the political puppet he represents) and get upset when they don't win. Well more fool them for voting in the first place I reckon.


The tosser Russell Brand? OK Pigpot, stop this, you're scaring me. You've made a comment I agree with and I don't want that to happen again. That road leads to madness.


Hey I'm not so disagreeable as you may think. The man is a nut job and while some people I know praised him for coming out as part of the "truth movement" I picked him as a liar and a shill. A plant if you will. Conspiracies within conspiracies. He's a true tosser that seemingly craps on his "own" people. The man is a liar and a plant to get people to buy into his lies. :shock:
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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby AndyK » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:14 pm

pigpot wrote:
...

Same as the idea of "Nations" borrowing money from the IMF etc. Why aren't they printing money themselves and distributing it interest free. If someone is lent $100,000 and is expected to pay back the principal plus compound interest how are they EVER going to pay back more than they were initially given. The only way is by someone losing out. Call it Africa.

...


If a nation prints more currency, that merely devalues the existing currency in the eyes of the rest of the world.
Thus, said currency now has a lower purchasing power.
In the end, the nation gains nothing and the holders of the currency lose.

Perhaps you should do some basic research into the concepts of money and finance before you pose such inane points.
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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby pigpot » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:49 pm

AndyK wrote:
pigpot wrote:
...

Same as the idea of "Nations" borrowing money from the IMF etc. Why aren't they printing money themselves and distributing it interest free. If someone is lent $100,000 and is expected to pay back the principal plus compound interest how are they EVER going to pay back more than they were initially given. The only way is by someone losing out. Call it Africa.

...


If a nation prints more currency, that merely devalues the existing currency in the eyes of the rest of the world.
Thus, said currency now has a lower purchasing power.
In the end, the nation gains nothing and the holders of the currency lose.

Perhaps you should do some basic research into the concepts of money and finance before you pose such inane points.


Thanks for responding "AndyK" but you didn't respond to the points I made in its entirety. Please don't assume my economic knowledge is lacking as you'd be wrong to think that. Basics 101, more of something devalues it.........

I talked about interest and compound interest and it being more than the principal which you didn't respond to conveniently. Also the REAL biggy was the idea of countries not issuing there own money for a long time.

Who's got control of the banks? Regular guys like the normal "Joe" on the street? Come on man. If this place has anything to defend it's its credibility. I've got family in Societies with Secrets. It's not that secret. Jeez.

The "World" ("NATIONS") are in debt. Last time I heard was $42 Trillion but that was five or six years ago. To who? If I can ask that one question here and now, that's it and you'll never hear from me again if I believe I have a satisfactory logical answer and it's such a good answer it STOPS me in my tracks from responding regardless of whether I think I can or NOT.

Don't say the "World" is in debt to PRIVATE banks though as that is illogical. Private banks can go and get lost. Big Government has nationalised what it has wanted to in the past. Oh! I used to be a "Commie" A picture of "General Zhukov" on my school folder but I got rid of that idea as well. Who cares about them, the banks. Governments shouldn't be borrowing privately, they should be printing money PUBLICLY. The Federal Reserve is a private bank and been so since whenever.

Ain't no gold in "Fort Knox". The "Germans" have been wanting it for some time now. Same as the "State of Texas". No chance. They ain't gonna get it. It's gone baybee.
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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby AndyK » Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:19 pm

No gold in Ft Knox :?: WRONG :!: But, you're the expert, so why should I even dare to challenge your "facts"?

By the way, a quick search comes up with the US Mint page showing approximately 5,000 tons of gold in storage. That's a tad more than none -- moron.

Who holds the debts that nations owe?

Lots of people, organizations, companies, and others.

For example; US Savings Bonds are debts of the US government. Likewise T-Bills, T-Bonds, and T-Notes -- all of which are held by those who are willing to accept a low rete of return in exchange for 100% protection of their initial investment. (Compare and contrast to holders of Greek government bonds)

Other holders of debt include the US Social Security fund. It consists totally of IOU notes from the US Treasury.

Now to interest, compuond interest and how can it be paid off. In theory, those borrowings will be paid off from future income to the country from taxes or growth of the economy. For the most part, it works. Unfortunately, some nations over borrow and their expected future revenue streams never happen.

But then, look at home mortgages or auto loans. Often the interest payments on them are more than the amount borrowed. So what?

Edited once to add Ft Knox holdings
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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby wserra » Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:53 pm

pigpot wrote:
wserra wrote:
pigpot wrote:My question is again (and now more structured and very specific) is it okay for the above to happen.


As I said before - perhaps somewhat differently - the problem is in the weasel words. "Is it okay" for someone to die for not paying taxes? Of course it isn't "okay". But it takes little in the way of reasoning to see from where you come, and for that reason I too will no longer participate in the sophistry.

You simply don't like the idea of government. Implicit in government is that obeying laws is not optional. An institution whose precepts are optional isn't a government, it's a church. (Although when religion takes over government, it tends to be far less tolerant than civil authority. But I digress.) A government must have force as the (hopefully) final option, or it does not function as government. Nothing says that you have to like the idea of government. There are certainly places in the world without functioning governments. Do those places appear utopian to you?

So you go ahead and disparage government's use of force to enforce law. Do so from behind the national defense that government provides, the heavily-subsidized medical care that you use, the transportation infrastructure without which we'd be hunter-gatherers, the food supply (and air, and water) the government protects, and while accepting the benefits of the thousands of other things, big and small, that government does. In the places that most of us post from, government evens protects your right to say this dumb stuff.

The usual response to this point is, "Well, I didn't ask for and don't want this stuff". Nonsense. Were that really the case, there are places you could go that don't have them. And even if there weren't, the huge majority of the rest of us do want and do use them. Who put you in charge?

We've seen this all before. It's called "jerking off".


Hey "Wes" you seriously nearly won me over. I can see where your thoughts go. I'm just looking for the end game. Where does it all end up. Any ideas?


wserra wrote:Where does what "all end up"?

It's like conversing with a child.


You started this. Are we done?
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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby Pottapaug1938 » Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:37 pm

pigpot wrote:
Pottapaug1938 wrote:
Water, for most communities in Greater Boston, comes from the Quabbin Reservoir in western Massachusetts (my Facebook name comes from a mountain in one of the towns flooded in 1939-46 to create Quabbin). Had Quabbin not been built, AT GREAT TAXPAYER EXPENSE, we would be lucky to have water of dubious quality; and even that would have to be filtered and treated AT GREAT TAXPAYER EXPENSE. If we had no government-supplied water supplies, companies like Nestle would surely offer to supply what was needed -- at a rate ensuring a handsome profit for itself, high compensation for its executives and a sexy return on capital for shareholders.


Excuse my ignorance. What am I paying my rates for and every other tax as well.


Previous citizens of Massachusetts paid to build Quabbin. My current water rates go towards getting the water to me and to making sure that it does not get dangerously polluted in the process.

As for "every other tax as well", consult your national and local budgets.
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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby pigpot » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:59 am

Pottapaug1938 wrote:
pigpot wrote:
Pottapaug1938 wrote:
Water, for most communities in Greater Boston, comes from the Quabbin Reservoir in western Massachusetts (my Facebook name comes from a mountain in one of the towns flooded in 1939-46 to create Quabbin). Had Quabbin not been built, AT GREAT TAXPAYER EXPENSE, we would be lucky to have water of dubious quality; and even that would have to be filtered and treated AT GREAT TAXPAYER EXPENSE. If we had no government-supplied water supplies, companies like Nestle would surely offer to supply what was needed -- at a rate ensuring a handsome profit for itself, high compensation for its executives and a sexy return on capital for shareholders.


Excuse my ignorance. What am I paying my rates for and every other tax as well.


Previous citizens of Massachusetts paid to build Quabbin. My current water rates go towards getting the water to me and to making sure that it does not get dangerously polluted in the process.

As for "every other tax as well", consult your national and local budgets.


So for all the Government demands of taxation to pay for this and that if the people really wanted to have built it theywould have payed for it voluntarily. It's seems the Government wanted "Quabbin" to be built.

My ideas are perfectly in line here with what Stefan Molyneux talks about in this video. No desire from me for you to watch the video but here it is anyway. The choice is always of course VOLUNTARY. :wink: It deals directly with everything I have typed about on the Quatloos forum and more specifically everything I have typed about on this thread. Cheers.

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Re: May I respctfully begin a new thread?

Postby Pottapaug1938 » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:00 pm

Pottapaug1938 wrote:Water, for most communities in Greater Boston, comes from the Quabbin Reservoir in western Massachusetts (my Facebook name comes from a mountain in one of the towns flooded in 1939-46 to create Quabbin). Had Quabbin not been built, AT GREAT TAXPAYER EXPENSE, we would be lucky to have water of dubious quality; and even that would have to be filtered and treated AT GREAT TAXPAYER EXPENSE. If we had no government-supplied water supplies, companies like Nestle would surely offer to supply what was needed -- at a rate ensuring a handsome profit for itself, high compensation for its executives and a sexy return on capital for shareholders.


Pigpot wrote:Excuse my ignorance. What am I paying my rates for and every other tax as well.


Previous citizens of Massachusetts paid to build Quabbin. My current water rates go towards getting the water to me and to making sure that it does not get dangerously polluted in the process.

As for "every other tax as well", consult your national and local budgets.


Pigpot wrote:So for all the Government demands of taxation to pay for this and that if the people really wanted to have built it theywould have payed for it voluntarily. It's seems the Government wanted "Quabbin" to be built.


No sh*t, Sherlock! The Massachusetts government wanted Quabbin to be built because the people in Greater Boston needed the water which it would provide; and cities like Worcester were needing water from some of the other sources out that way. The enabling legislation was enacted by Representatives and Senators elected by their constituencies, and signed into a law by a Governor elected the same way. If you truly believe that all of the people who would get Quabbin water would have "payed [sic] for it voluntarily", and that there would be no one who would accept Quabbin water without paying their fair share, your naivete pegs the needle. That goes double if you believe that a private company could have brought about the necessary land takings, during the Great Depression, at a lesser cost than what the Commonwealth of Massachusetts paid.


You really need a remedial course in the workings of representative government.


edited to restructure quotations -- AndyK
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture." -- Pastor Ray Mummert, Dover, PA, during an attempt to introduce creationism -- er, "intelligent design", into the Dover Public Schools


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