Montreal Gazette article on Freeman movement

[Lambkin]

You'll recognize some names in this article...
http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/nat ... story.html

The Law Society of B.C. and B.C. Notaries have both issued warnings about Freemen, which the law society said in a bulletin last year may number as many as 30,000 in Canada.

"Since one of the tenets of the Freeman-on-the-Land movement is an unrestricted right to possess and use firearms, they raise significant safety and security concerns," says the bulletin, which advises lawyers who come across Freemen to take appropriate security measures.

RCMP and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police officers are currently developing awareness materials for frontline officers, and the movement is the subject of upcoming policing seminars in Vancouver and Toronto.

[Hilfskreuzer Möwe]

That story has been broadly picked up by Canadian media sources, including both ‘national’ newspapers: the Globe & Mail and the National Post.

The National Post article (http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/09/02 ... adas-laws/) includes a pair of videos, one a Canadian Press video interview with Brian Alexander and Ron Usher from B.C. Notary Society.

The second video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEPqRtEhLuI), weirdly enough, is a Croatian OPPT interview with Dean Clifford!

SMS Möwe

[Burnaby49]

That story has been broadly picked up by Canadian media sources, including both ‘national’ newspapers: the Globe & Mail and the National Post.

The National Post article (http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/09/02 ... adas-laws/) includes a pair of videos, one a Canadian Press video interview with Brian Alexander and Ron Usher from B.C. Notary Society.

The second video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEPqRtEhLuI), weirdly enough, is a Croatian OPPT interview with Dean Clifford!

SMS Möwe

Both Vancouver daily newspapers have it:

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/metro/ ... story.html

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Legal+o ... story.html

[Hilfskreuzer Möwe]

I thought the interviewer had been rather gentle in the commentary and treatment of the Freeman movement and Mr. Alexander. It appears I was incorrect (http://www.facebook.com/groups/13786930 ... 215839382/):

Wally Banger
Here's a nice piece of shit for you. Sounds like you did a good job, Brian but they slanted it and turned it into a propaganda piece just as I'm sure you knew they would.

Alexander Ream
Very pathetic article. They demonize everything.

Brian Alexander
I wasn't expecting it to be so slanted; the bitch gave me her eword it was going to be non biased, n I also told her right off the bat that Sovereign and Citizen were polar opposites...though obviosly its government propaganda with government labels.

One point though, this report suggests that there are as many as 30,000 Freemen in Canada. I suspect the source of that figure is this highly redacted CSIS domestic threat assessment report (http://www.scribd.com/doc/118731437/Domestic), but the report simply points to "open sources". I'm not certain what those would be - does anyone have a source for this figure?

Frankly, I don't buy that number. At all. My guess would be an order of magnitude less. When you do a 'head count' on the number of persons who subscribe to even the most active Freeman-on-the-Land Facebook groups the numbers rarely break 1,000. Further investigation makes it is obvious that a significant number of those persons are from other countries. Similarly, though there are a large number of Freeman message forums and websites, the same names continually reappear, again and again. The granddaddy of Freeman online communities, the World Freeman Society website forums, says it has somewhat over 4,000 members.

Robert Menard has 235 followers on Facebook. Dean Clifford does not share that information in public. Mary Elizabeth Crofts "appreciation society" (http://www.facebook.com/groups/87577448012/) has 591 members. Similarly, the regional World Freeman Society Facebook groups have smaller memberships: Ontario = 544, Alberta = 141, Inland B.C. = 46.

I just don't see 30,000 from that.

Now, there is a countervailing factor - in Canada there seems to be a second 'offline' branch of the Sovereign Citizen / Freeman-on-the-Land community. I do not know much about it, but I know it must exist because when one tracks back the Freemen / Sovereigns who appear in court, there are a significant number who have no apparent online presence. Furthermore, there have been events that would be extremely significant to Freeman / Sovereign community that remain all but unknown to the 'online' branch, such as the Killam RCMP shooting. I wish I had a better idea about the origin and character of the 'offline' part of the community but I do have some confidence that it is not ten times the size of the 'online' component.

My hunch is the Detaxer community was not much larger at its peak. R. v. Porisky, 2012 BCSC 771 reports at para. 40 that Paradigm had about 800 subscribers. I don't think there is much dispute that Porisky's Detaxer scheme was by far the largest in Canada. The 30,000 cannot be a misattribution to the Detaxer period.

I would very much welcome observations on this point, as this is a question that has long troubled me. That is not to say I want to underplay the potential for disruption by Canadian Freemen / Sovereigns, but it also does not seem helpful to inflate the scope of this community.

And I don't think it's growing in number, but as a danger to the public? Quite possibly.

SMS Möwe

[Burnaby49]

I'm quite happy to agree with Mowe's opinion on this one. I think the CSIS domestic threat assessment is exaggerated, possibly to pony up some more budget dollars. Before the 30,000 number has any credibility I'd like to know what groups or fringe movements the CSIS included in that total.

As Mowe says, the same few names come bubbling up over and over. Mowe mentioned in a prior post that he was running out of prominant sovereigns to write about and, while he has done a fantastic job, the total so far is fairly minor. That small a number of gurus doesn't indicate a massive base of followers and even the few mentioned seemed to be struggling to retain any relevance. The apparent failure of the Freedo Gathering:

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=9364

is probably a good indication of how strong the movement actually is. Menard can't even get a few hundred dollars per head for a summer BBQ/camp-out. The sovereigns seem to be mainly in Alberta and British Columbia and I just can't see 30,000, more or less, between these two provinces.

[Hilfskreuzer Möwe]

Spotted a further news article, published in the Toronto Star, on the Canadian Freeman-on-the-Land movement:

• Sovereign citizen movement: OPP is watching (http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013 ... ching.html)

It's a question and answer session with a representative of the Ontario Provincial Police on Freeman characteristics and activities in Ontario. Nothing too surprising. Perhaps the most interesting tidbit is:

Q. What is this group about and how many members do they have in Canada and in Ontario?

A. Individuals who adhere to the Freeman philosophy attempt to sever all ties with government in their daily lives using the process they call “de-registration” from birth certificates, driver’s licenses, health cards, social insurance numbers and the like. They support unobstructed travel and property rights, including the right to grow, harvest and sell crops like marijuana, and unrestricted access to and use of firearms to sustain their respective lifestyles. There are approximately 500 known members (and many more supporters) in many areas across Ontario.

[Emphasis added, formatting added.]

I wonder if that number is derived from the The Freemen of Canada (Ontario Chapter) Facebook group (http://www.facebook.com/groups/102301586487632/). If so, then that too is an overestimate in my opinion.

One more interesting fact, the interview states that at least 28 police officers have been killed in the U.S. by Sovereigns since 2001. An alarming number by any standard.

SMS Möwe

[Lambkin]

One more interesting fact, the interview states that at least 28 police officers have been killed in the U.S. by Sovereigns since 2001. An alarming number by any standard.

It's hard to believe it could be that many. I'd like to see the list.

Edit: maybe it includes a bunch of Oklahoma City bombing victims? That might explain the high number.

[Lambkin]

Except that was 1995. Never mind.

[ArthurWankspittle]

One more interesting fact, the interview states that at least 28 police officers have been killed in the U.S. by Sovereigns since 2001. An alarming number by any standard.

It's hard to believe it could be that many. I'd like to see the list.

Edit: maybe it includes a bunch of Oklahoma City bombing victims? That might explain the high number.

I suspect quite a few will be where the sheriff or deputy enforcing the foreclosure has been shot.
I'm not trying trivialise it but that is about 2 a year over the time period and America is a big place.