OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

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Heather will decide to head for the hills:

Before her next hearing
1
3%
After her next hearing
2
6%
Before her trial
13
37%
Before her sentencing
16
46%
Never - she wants to experience BEing and DOing behind bars.
3
9%
 
Total votes: 35

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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby notorial dissent » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:29 pm

The Observer wrote:
Burnaby49 wrote:When you boil it down it's all right here;

THE COURT: What I'm looking for is yeses and noes, and then if you want to explain the yes or no, but you go straight off into some bizarre explanation, and I never get an answer.


She'a a master of deflection.


And that could be for two reasons:

(1) HATJ knows that her arguments are going to fail if the judge makes any progress in his questioning, or

(2) she really has no idea of what she is saying or doing and all of this just appears to be deflection instead of the poo-flinging that it really is.

I'm leaning towards 2. All of her answers came off as mildly confused/bewildered, of the why are you questioning me about this when it is so because I say it is so sense. All of her answers came back to a "thus and so happened because I say it did, now why can't you see that" response.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby TheNewSaint » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:14 pm

notorial dissent wrote:I'm leaning towards 2. All of her answers came off as mildly confused/bewildered, of the why are you questioning me about this when it is so because I say it is so sense. All of her answers came back to a "thus and so happened because I say it did, now why can't you see that" response.


Yes, Heather loves to be cryptic, and then treat you like a dumbass if you can't decipher her gibberish. Which appeals to her fan club, because they speak fluent Heatherese, and get to join in the condescencion party.

This is combined with a propensity for changing the subject whenever pinned down on something. The judge asks straightforward questions about Heather's actions, like "do you assert you have authority over this court?" and "what documentation would you require to prove I have jurisdiction?" to which Heather moves the goalposts.

Heather's position in this hearing moves from "I disbanded the United States" to "I require documented proof the United States exists" to "it must have Jeff Sessions' biometric signature" to "this court is a bank."

As to why she does this, I think her being batshit insane explains most of it.

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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby notorial dissent » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:30 pm

TheNewSaint wrote:
notorial dissent wrote:I'm leaning towards 2. All of her answers came off as mildly confused/bewildered, of the why are you questioning me about this when it is so because I say it is so sense. All of her answers came back to a "thus and so happened because I say it did, now why can't you see that" response.


Yes, Heather loves to be cryptic, and then treat you like a dumbass if you can't decipher her gibberish. Which appeals to her fan club, because they speak fluent Heatherese, and get to join in the condescencion party.

This is combined with a propensity for changing the subject whenever pinned down on something. The judge asks straightforward questions about Heather's actions, like "do you assert you have authority over this court?" and "what documentation would you require to prove I have jurisdiction?" to which Heather moves the goalposts.

Heather's position in this hearing moves from "I disbanded the United States" to "I require documented proof the United States exists" to "it must have Jeff Sessions' biometric signature" to "this court is a bank."

As to why she does this, I think her being batshit insane explains most of it.

If she's not already, I think she is nearing the edge, she has been living in whackadoo land for too long and I think she is starting to believe her own fantasies.
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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby Athis » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:59 pm

As I understand it the judge will deliver his response and decision vis a vis Heather's jurisdiction challenge in a couple of weeks - circa November 18th. Is that right?
Then I would expect Heather to lodge an appeal to the next level court?

Seems to me that once her jurisdiction challenge is dealt with the court would be foolish to leave her on release
Once Heather realises she is to the tried under US law I would not expect her to stay for the trial

I think the sovereign man phenomenon is an ideological mental disorder. When the sovereign man ideology gets into a person's mind it takes over their thinking processes and filters their perceptions and presents them with a distorted picture of the world and society. The sovereign man ideology gradually cuts the person off from the normal recieved reality we all share. It does awful damage to their lives and the lives of anyone who cares for them. Imagine the heartbreak if your son or daughter or brother or sister, someone you love and care for, was infected and started spouting all that sovereign nonsense and getting into all kinds of trouble with the law and just about everybody.

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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby JohnPCapitalist » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:21 pm

Athis wrote:I think the sovereign man phenomenon is an ideological mental disorder. When the sovereign man ideology gets into a person's mind it takes over their thinking processes and filters their perceptions and presents them with a distorted picture of the world and society. The sovereign man ideology gradually cuts the person off from the normal recieved reality we all share. It does awful damage to their lives and the lives of anyone who cares for them. Imagine the heartbreak if your son or daughter or brother or sister, someone you love and care for, was infected and started spouting all that sovereign nonsense and getting into all kinds of trouble with the law and just about everybody.


In other words, SovCit thinking is a cult. It's exactly like Scientology with the exception that there's not a single individual founder to venerate and to maintain control of the "flock." The internet takes care of that. In most cases, cult membership stops short of being a mental disorder, though there are cases where people do go around the bend.

All of the mechanisms that cults use to keep people in are in place here, particularly the easy methods for keeping one's self and other members in the thought bubble, disregarding any evidence that the beliefs don't work. If you read the saga of some of the various camp followers of the Bundy cult, they get sucked in to that world, forsake their family, and end up on the wrong end of a divorce case. That certainly seems to have happened to HATJ when she went around the bend. And social isolation from non-believers is a key way to keep people in. Scientology practices that brutally, as increasingly do the Jehovah's Witnesses. The ease of access to other SovCit loons via the internet allows members of this cult to connect to each other and forsake family and friends without ever leaving home.

SovCits are deathly certain that all their gibberish works, but they don't see it as a problem that nobody can produce any evidence that it does such as records of court victories. And, like conspiracy theory loons, they dismiss anyone from the outside asking for evidence as part of the eeebil corrupt gummint tyranny conspiracy.

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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby notorial dissent » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:32 pm

The thing that seems to keep them from being or becoming a cult is that they all seem to be mutually incapable of getting along with more than a handful of co-thinkers for any appreciable span of time before some internecine bickering breaks out and charges of heresy begin to fly, and that while their doctrine must be pure and there be no deviation, and they seem to jump from doctrine to doctrine fairly regularly. They do not examine they just accept as long as it fits their belief of the moment.
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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby Siegfried Shrink » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:25 pm

I would like to get hold of a selection of the irrational, of all varieties, to perform some experiments on them.

I would like to test the function of their reasoning processes with tests of simple logical problems to see if there is some common disorder that is in effect causing everything they encounter to treated as an assault on them in some way. To investigate if only certain situations are treated as not subject to question. There is probably something in the literature somewhere but I am simply feeling too old to go looking.

Comparative brain scans for neural activity when confronted with a 'critical thinking' situation might show some physiological basis, some failure of the monkey brain to run things past the more evolved parts when faced with a dilemma.

There are clearly large enough numbers of people who will at least partly believe almost anything, more than enough to provide at least a modest living to the various gurus who spin this stuff. The situation is not at all new, there have always been people with irrational belief sets and people willing and eager to take their money, as the existance of organised religions proves.
Possibly a lack of relevance of mainstream religion in modern life is a factor that leaves a hole for what must be considered a more harmful irrationality, and of course with so many people living their lives in public in an unprecedented manner, just how whacky they are is far easier to see.

The bizzare beliefs are often held as part of a set, the fully committed will be fans of 9/11 troof, chemtrails, depopulation plans, flat earth, reptilians, and older evils like blaming some group for everything, along with sov-cittery.

Sometimes I think the only thing too unbelievable for them would be the flying 699th assault sausage dogs, ironically, as real as the president's hair.

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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby TheNewSaint » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:45 pm

Lets not overlook the power of simple greed. People like HATJ and Harvey get followers because they promise them untold riches. Simple as that. Or, they don't have to pay their bills or taxes anymore. That's the front door for a lot of otherwise reasonable people. And when these tactics appear to work at first and then fail later, its easy for the guru to spin it as the mean ol' government stealing from them. Its insidious.

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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby wserra » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:27 pm

Siegfried Shrink wrote:I would like to get hold of a selection of the irrational, of all varieties, to perform some experiments on them.

the function of their reasoning processes
simple logical problems
some common disorder
investigate if only certain situations are treated as not subject to question
Comparative brain scans for neural activity
some physiological basis


I'd start with a plain old Turing test. Bet most fail.

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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby Athis » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:29 pm

TheNewSaint wrote:Lets not overlook the power of simple greed. People like HATJ and Harvey get followers because they promise them untold riches. Simple as that. Or, they don't have to pay their bills or taxes anymore. That's the front door for a lot of otherwise reasonable people. And when these tactics appear to work at first and then fail later, its easy for the guru to spin it as the mean ol' government stealing from them. Its insidious.


I dont know for certain, but my sense is that Heather is sincere
I think she really believes her OPPT stuff is real and valid and has foreclosed the US government
And I think she really believes the spiritual teachings she puts out; BZ too
I think her teachings appeal to people who feel bewildered and oppressed by the world
She promises them heaven on earth; universal freedom and wealth for everyone; she is a savior to them
The new age spiritual movement is full of people who resort to spiritual belief and hope as an escapism
They dont like the human world

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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby Athis » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:32 pm

Siegfried Shrink wrote:Sometimes I think the only thing too unbelievable for them would be the flying 699th assault sausage dogs, ironically, as real as the president's hair.


How about a flying rainbow lasagne...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvalIA37TcU

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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby wserra » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:40 pm

Gregg wrote:
Siegfried Shrink wrote:The end of the transcript refers tpa recess till the afternoon. What happened next?


The court went to lunch and came back to hear the next case, not every recess is in the middle of one case.


Right. As the Judge said at the end of a long, long morning, "court stands in recess till the trial resumes this afternoon". So that judge was in the middle of a trial, and took the morning off to waste it with Heather.

So is she nuts or a master bullshitter? Who cares? There comes a point when the two converge.
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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby Burnaby49 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:54 pm

Waste it? I must disagree. To start with he seemed to be enjoying himself. But, more to point, he's given us one of the most demented documents I've yet read. And I've been through a lot of Freeman/Sovereign documents.

What makes this one particularly entertaining is that it isn't just some meaningless babble from a notice of understanding and intent and claim of right that the Chief was selling wholesale or some hopeless Statement of Claim that Charles Norman Holmes might cough up. There are high stakes here. This is Heather apparently doing her best to stay out of jail. if she fails so does her guru status. So this is her best shot. This is showing us how she operated as a lawyer back in the day except without the law part. She seems both sane, and demented. She's interacting with the judge on a rational basis but with irrational responses. How could we ask for more?
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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby ArthurWankspittle » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:12 pm

I agree with Burnaby. This plus the trial transcript could become the US's Meads v Meads.
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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby TheNewSaint » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:39 pm

Athis wrote:I dont know for certain, but my sense is that Heather is sincere
I think she really believes her OPPT stuff is real and valid and has foreclosed the US government


I think so too, but when put on the spot about it, she waffles incessantly. When the judge asks her "are you claiming you have authority over this court?" her answer should simply be "yes," because that is what she is claiming. But she is reluctant to be direct for some reason.

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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby notorial dissent » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:25 am

wserra wrote:
Gregg wrote:
Siegfried Shrink wrote:The end of the transcript refers tpa recess till the afternoon. What happened next?


The court went to lunch and came back to hear the next case, not every recess is in the middle of one case.


Right. As the Judge said at the end of a long, long morning, "court stands in recess till the trial resumes this afternoon". So that judge was in the middle of a trial, and took the morning off to waste it with Heather.

So is she nuts or a master bullshitter? Who cares? There comes a point when the two converge.

Or are totally indistinguishable as here.
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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby The Observer » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:30 am

TheNewSaint wrote:I think so too, but when put on the spot about it, she waffles incessantly. When the judge asks her "are you claiming you have authority over this court?" her answer should simply be "yes," because that is what she is claiming. But she is reluctant to be direct for some reason.


And this is why I think she is only posturing for the sake of her marks, and why she will, at some point, scamper off when she feels the walls closing in.

ArthurWankspittle wrote:I agree with Burnaby. This plus the trial transcript could become the US's Meads v Meads.


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wserra wrote:There comes a point when the two converge.


I hope the moment of singularity results in the judge putting HATJ behind bars.
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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby Siegfried Shrink » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:26 pm

Rather than lock her away, I feel it would be far more amusing to let her off and see what she comes up with next.
'Who breaks a butterfly upon a wheel' comes to mind, from Alexander Pope.

I think the whole crazy but essentially harmless saga contributes to the gaiety of nations in a way that many more obnoxious gurus do not, although they remain at large.

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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby TheNewSaint » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:13 pm

The Observer wrote:And this is why I think she is only posturing for the sake of her marks, and why she will, at some point, scamper off when she feels the walls closing in.


Makes sense. It would explain her complete disrespect for the judge, something that's unwise when they're in position to sentence you later on.

I again note that Heather turned off the crazy when she was trying to get released. So apparently she doesn't feel at any risk of being thrown back into the slammer.

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Re: OPPT (One Person's Public Trial) - Tucci-Jarraf

Postby Gregg » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:42 pm

Siegfried Shrink wrote:Rather than lock her away, I feel it would be far more amusing to let her off and see what she comes up with next.
'Who breaks a butterfly upon a wheel' comes to mind, from Alexander Pope.

I think the whole crazy but essentially harmless saga contributes to the gaiety of nations in a way that many more obnoxious gurus do not, although they remain at large.


I really disagree with that, and most especially the "essentially harmless" part. She has been for a long time a very public and damaging fraudster, not even taking into account the attack on the banking infrastructure. Heather is DIRECTLY responsible for dozens of people losing homes, hundreds if not thousands doing stupid stuff that screws up their lives and their families lives for decades, more than a few who have been arrested, and that's just the ones who are her direct, official Planet Moonbeam Channel followers. Toss in the harm done by the Harvey Dent and Mike Obrien crowd on youtube and its exponentially worse. Counting up the OPPT, the Water Powered Magic Sex Bus, Hope Girl's Big Adventure and Free Energy Morocco Commune and the The TDA Accounts it boggles the mind how much harm she has done. FFS, Look at her hapless co-defendant in this case.

Randy Beane was a low level Sov-Cit claiming not to be a Sov-Cit nut who couldn't hold a job and didn't like license plates or car insurance, he might have been in and out of county jails on 30 day sentences for quite a while going on like this, and every time was a chance to prove he might someday be smarter than a houseplant by the time he got out. Along came Heather, and all of a sudden the unemployed produce clerk is defrauding the Federal Reserve, trying to take $29 million and getting a little bit away with $1.5 million of that. Think he could have gotten that stupid on his own, or did having Heather goad him along contribute just a little bit?

This is merely the first time she's done something that is going to have adverse effects on her.
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