Let me start my questions from the beginning.

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AndyK
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Re: Let me start my questions from the beginning.

Post by AndyK »

Patriotdiscussions wrote:Sure very well then. Tell me does this definition

Animal includes cats, dogs, and hamsters

Of animal mean horse?
If you're trying to play games with the usage of "include, includes, or including" within 26USC, you need to add the definition such as is contained within 26USC; i.e, a term of expansion rather than a term of limitation.

In simple terms, YOU need to specify the definition of "includes" upon which you want to base the discussion instead of leaving the DEFINITION open to debate.
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Re: Let me start my questions from the beginning.

Post by ProfHenryHiggins »

Pottapaug1938 wrote: Troll-boy is also playing the typical sovrun word game in which to state that a particular term "includes" something is to necessarily exclude, from the scope of that term, anything not explicitly mentioned. Usually, some hoary legal maxim will be trotted out in support of the fantasy, as if that legal maxim came from sort of a secular/legal Holy Scripture. The fact that his/her proposition is completely wrong is beside the point.
In other words, he's taking the use of "includes" from mathematics (specifically, from set theory) and trying to apply it to matters in which mathematics is not involved nor relevant.
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Re: Let me start my questions from the beginning.

Post by The Observer »

ProfHenryHiggins wrote:In other words, he's taking the use of "includes" from mathematics (specifically, from set theory) and trying to apply it to matters in which mathematics is not involved nor relevant.
Right. So if he saw the following statement:
My Chocolate Chip Cookie Recipe includes the following items: eggs, milk and flour.
he would make the ridiculous argument that the recipe does not have chocolate chips in it.
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Re: Let me start my questions from the beginning.

Post by Patriotdiscussions »

They are called rules of statutory interpretation, you should learn them...

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/ ... fss_papers


The rule expressio unius est exclusio alterius (the inclusion of the one is the exclusion of the other): when a list of specific items is not followed by general words it is to be taken as exhaustive. For example, “weekends and public holidays” excludes ordinary weekdays

“(5) The rule ejusdem generis (of the same kind): when a list of specific items belonging to the same class is followed by general words (as in ‘cats, dogs, and other animals’), the general words are to be treated as confined to other items of the same class (in this example, to other domestic animals).
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Pottapaug1938
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Re: Let me start my questions from the beginning.

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

Patriotdiscussions wrote:They are called rules of statutory interpretation, you should learn them...

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/ ... fss_papers


The rule expressio unius est exclusio alterius (the inclusion of the one is the exclusion of the other): when a list of specific items is not followed by general words it is to be taken as exhaustive. For example, “weekends and public holidays” excludes ordinary weekdays

“(5) The rule ejusdem generis (of the same kind): when a list of specific items belonging to the same class is followed by general words (as in ‘cats, dogs, and other animals’), the general words are to be treated as confined to other items of the same class (in this example, to other domestic animals).
See the section beginning on page 5 of your quoted tome, Blackstone.

I'm reminded of a piece of sovrun idiocy in which the claimant asserted that since the stated definition of the United States "included" Puerto Rico and other US territories but did not specifically mention the 50 states of the Union, the United States, using the maxim of expressio unius est exclusio alterius , did not include any of the 50 states.

In other words, your legal maxims are of dubious value.
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Re: Let me start my questions from the beginning.

Post by AndyK »

Patriotdiscussions wrote:They are called rules of statutory interpretation, you should learn them...

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/ ... fss_papers


The rule expressio unius est exclusio alterius (the inclusion of the one is the exclusion of the other): when a list of specific items is not followed by general words it is to be taken as exhaustive. For example, “weekends and public holidays” excludes ordinary weekdays

“(5) The rule ejusdem generis (of the same kind): when a list of specific items belonging to the same class is followed by general words (as in ‘cats, dogs, and other animals’), the general words are to be treated as confined to other items of the same class (in this example, to other domestic animals).
All of which may be well and good.

However, when a statute contains a specific definition of a term as in:
26USC7701 wrote:(c) Includes and including The terms "includes" and "including" when used in a definition contained in this title shall not be deemed to exclude other things otherwise within the meaning of the term defined
the specified definition overrides any other posible definition or construction of the word.
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Re: Let me start my questions from the beginning.

Post by Famspear »

Patriotdiscussions wrote:They are called rules of statutory interpretation, you should learn them...

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/ ... fss_papers


The rule expressio unius est exclusio alterius (the inclusion of the one is the exclusion of the other): when a list of specific items is not followed by general words it is to be taken as exhaustive. For example, “weekends and public holidays” excludes ordinary weekdays

“(5) The rule ejusdem generis (of the same kind): when a list of specific items belonging to the same class is followed by general words (as in ‘cats, dogs, and other animals’), the general words are to be treated as confined to other items of the same class (in this example, to other domestic animals).
No, we don't need to "learn them." We're already aware of these rules, remember? And citing these rules in this forum as you did is a sure sign that you have been reading the usual wackadooster nonsense on the internet.

It's also a sure sign that you don't know how to use these rules.

The Quatloos regulars have covered the misuse of these rules over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over in this forum. See also the Tax Protester FAQ:
Misuse of the maxims “expressio unius est exclusio alterius” or “ejusdem generis.”

The Latin phrase “expressio unius est exclusio alterius” is a maxim of statutory construction, and translates roughly as “the expression of one meaning is an exclusion of others.” The maxim “is an aid to construction, not a rule of law. It can never override clear and contrary evidences of Congressional intent.” Neuberger v. Commissioner, 311 U.S. 83, 88 (1940). It “serves only as an aid in discovering the legislative intent when * * * [it] is not otherwise manifest.” United States v. Barnes, 222 U.S. 513, 519 (1912); see 2A Sutherland Stat. Const. sec. 47.23 (1984).

A similar, but somewhat different principle, is “ejusdem generis,” meaning “of the same kind.” A court following the principle of ejusdem generis might construe general words that follow or precede specific words in a statute as limited to meanings similar in nature to those enumerated by the preceding specific words. See, Circuit City Stores, Inc. v. Adams, 532 U.S. 105, 114-15 (2001). So, for example, the deduction allows by IRC section 165(c)(3) for losses due to “fire, storm, shipwreck, or other casualty” has been limited to “casualties” similar in suddeness and severity to fires, storms, and shipwrecks, and not extended to gradual losses, such as termite infestations. See United States v. Rogers, 120 F. 2d 244 (1941).

These rules of construction are used to eliminate ambiguities or uncertainties in statutes, but tax protesters frequently use them to distort the meaning of unambiguous statutes and negate the ordinary meanings of words....
--From The Tax Protester FAQ, copyright by Daniel B. Evans. See:

http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#expressiounius

8)

Again, you don't seem to understand what's going on here. This Quatloos forum has been here for many, many, many years. I have been posting here for over seven years, and many posters have been here much longer than that. I have been studying people like you for over 15 years, and very intensively -- virtually every day -- for over eight years.

So far, you have come up with nothing that the Quatloos regulars haven't already seen and debunked long before you arrived, "Patriotdiscussions".
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Re: Let me start my questions from the beginning.

Post by fortinbras »

Why are we still wasting bandwidth on this troll?
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Re: Let me start my questions from the beginning.

Post by The Observer »

fortinbras wrote:Why are we still wasting bandwidth on this troll?
So other people, whether readers, lurkers, vistors or would-be trolls, might learn something and avoid the mistakes that patriotdiscussions has made.
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Re: Let me start my questions from the beginning.

Post by Arthur Rubin »

Patriotdiscussions wrote:“(5) The rule ejusdem generis (of the same kind): when a list of specific items belonging to the same class is followed by general words (as in ‘cats, dogs, and other animals’), the general words are to be treated as confined to other items of the same class (in this example, to other domestic animals).
I don't agree that the class is "domestic animals". It could be "animals often (or usually) found in a dwelling" (horse, excluded), "domesticated animals" (horse included), "domestic animals", "owned animals" (horse even more likely included than cats and dogs), or some other class. Does your misreading of law dictionaries provide any insight as to which of the classes is likely to be correct, even if that principle applies.

BTW, a horse may be a motor vehicle, for the purpose of DUI. Pennsylvania v. Noel, 857 A.2d 1283 (Pennsylvania, 2004), Eaken, J, dissenting. [Probably best known, at least in law school circles, for a verse penned by Eaken, to the tune of the Mr. Ed theme.]
Last edited by Arthur Rubin on Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: adjust punctuation
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Re: Let me start my questions from the beginning.

Post by JamesVincent »

Arthur Rubin wrote:I don't agree that the class is "domestic animals". It could be "animals often (or usually) found in a dwelling" (horse, excluded), "domesticated animals" (horse included), "domestic animals", "owned animals" (horse even more likely included than cats and dogs), or some other class.
Animals with four legs would be about the only class that all would be in since it is more likely, statistically, for a horse to be domestic then a cat or dog.
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Re: Let me start my questions from the beginning.

Post by grixit »

Well i tried. Time to impose the amish death penalty.
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Re: Let me start my questions from the beginning.

Post by PeanutGallery »

The Observer wrote:
ProfHenryHiggins wrote:In other words, he's taking the use of "includes" from mathematics (specifically, from set theory) and trying to apply it to matters in which mathematics is not involved nor relevant.
Right. So if he saw the following statement:
My Chocolate Chip Cookie Recipe includes the following items: eggs, milk and flour.
he would make the ridiculous argument that the recipe does not have chocolate chips in it.
Would his head explode if, following the list of your cookies ingredients, he was further informed that it may contain traces of nut?
Warning may contain traces of nut
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Re: Let me start my questions from the beginning.

Post by LaVidaRoja »

Of course, if he left out the sugar, butter, vanilla, and baking soda, he likely would not produce a very good cookie.....
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Re: Let me start my questions from the beginning.

Post by Gregg »

I've seen enough...unless someone wishes to dissent.
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Re: Let me start my questions from the beginning.

Post by AndyK »

Sorry. Didn't notice the thread had been locked.
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