How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by Patriotdiscussions »

Prof wrote:If PD wants an answer, he should ask GOOGLE, which would direct him to a number of sites that describe mortgages and deeds of trust.

See, e.g., http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/ ... trust.html Mortgages and deeds of trust are just devices to create a valid lien on real property to secure repayment of borrowed funds. The borrowed money may be used to purchase the property or improve the property or -- assuming the property is raw land or business property or that the state law allows borrowing against a homestead -- to take a trip around the world or pay for a face lift.

I presume that most of the readers of this forum understand that some states -- by statute -- permit loans (notes) secured by real estate to be secured by a "contract" known as a mortgage, in which the lender holds the lien and the lender acts directly to foreclose on the lien, usually by judicial foreclosure. In such states, there is usually a judicial proceeding at which the lender proves up the debt and balance due and the existence of a valid mortgage duly recorded. Then a judicially ordered sale takes place and the property is sold to the highest bidder with the proceeds applied to the balance due on the note.

Other states (Texas, for example) use the "Deed of Trust" in which legal title is held by a trustee for the benefit of a lender -- usually an officer of the lender, in Texas -- who, upon default, will conduct an non-judicial foreclosure sale on notice only (no court is involved) and will sell the collateral real estate to the highest bidder and apply the proceeds in satisfaction or partial satisfaction of the debt. If the loan is paid off, the trustee conveys legal title to the borrower.

The advantage is non-judicial foreclosure. This is easy to understand. If I want to borrow money secured by real property, I sign a note and agree to and sign a deed of trust. The deed of trust gives legal title to the trustee and equitable title to me. I have the right to occupy and use the property until I default. If I default, the trustee gives me notice and conducts a sale for the benefit of the lender, who is the beneficiary under the deed of trust.

In both cases, prior and priority liens ( particularly real estate ad valorem taxes) are not extinguished but subordinate liens (second liens, federal tax liens, judgment liens) are wiped out. Also, the usual buyer is the lender, who credit bids up to the amount due on the note. Rarely is there a third party with cash who purchases at foreclosure, but I have seen that happen.

Right, never thought of that.

Google you say?
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How to grant title to a trustee: a Darker Side

Post by Hyrion »

Thanks for the welcomes in advance! "Anticipation denotes intelligence."

Apologies in advance for the length of the post. I can be long-winded at times when I have what I feel are lots of important points to make.

Before I draw a possible conclusion, I need to outline some assumptions that the conclusion would reasonably flow from. For some of you, the assumptions may have a high likelihood. For myself, I'm simply outlining them as possibilities. I do not have sufficient factual information from which to even begin to speculate on the probabilities thereof. They may be just as probable as a given lotto 649 ticket has of winning the jackpot.

Assumptions:
  • PD may be one of those who has been acquiring some form of income out of those s/he convinces to follow "the path"*. From a factual perspective, Russell Porisky has been lawfully determined to have done so.
  • PD may be in a situation where s/he wants to benefit further. In short, s/he isn't making enough quickly enough.
  • PD may be searching for a way to increase that so s/he earns more faster.
  • PD is asking the question for her/himself and not for someone else.
So... what tactic could we be seeing the begining of?

From the thread Private Sector Act dod Com, by Mowe
an old 1970's scam where desperate homeowners can put Mr. Johnson's company on title to preempt foreclosure
Let's start with a basic legal definition of trustee (from http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/trustee: The Free Dictionary):
An individual or corporation named by an individual, who sets aside property to be used for the benefit of another person, to manage the property as provided by the terms of the document that created the arrangement.
In my humble legal layman opinion, this represents a position where an entity is assigned the responsibility of managing property for the entity who actually owns said property. This does not define a position of ownership over said property. This is not a transfer of Title but is an assignment of responsibility.

In that context, the subject ("grant title ... to trustee") is, therefore, meaningless. But it does have value in another context. In the context Mowe outlined - as a way to scam property out of the rightful owners into the cons hands.

It's a possible solution to PDs dilemma with regards not earning enough fast enough.
  • Implement a method to legally transfer the property.
Result: PD offers up protection in the form of transfering the value to him/her (or an entity s/he owns) in order to prevent the big bad bank from foreclosing on the property. PD then proceeds - with lawful title of the property - to sell the property at market value. Immediate profit.

Part of the con would obviously involve convincing the mark that PD will be a "trustee", not "owner". This would certainly explain the subject - from my layman perspective.

-----

I did not author the outline for the benefit of those who visit here that are curious of watching the train wreck in the form of the latest follower of "the path" destroying themselves. The strategy outlined has been proven, and will continue, to fail under the methods of the "gurus of the path". However, if implemented correctly** it can succeed in making victims of those who have built up equity in their homes.

I authored the outline for the victims. For the followers who are considering following "the path". And those who may be on "the path" but haven't advanced so far there's no turning back.

Think very carefully about what you want to achieve out of your property and the investment you've already put into it. If you truly want to still benfit from the responsibility you entered (keep the home) without abiding by your commitment (paying the mortgage):
  • It's not going to happen unless whoever gave you the original money to buy the home decides to be extremely generous and give you the home out of the kindness of their hearts.
And if you buy into the scheme above, remember:
  • If you sign over the Title to your home, no matter who it is you signed it over to, you still no longer own it.
Whether it's the bank that takes it from you (lawful foreclosure) or the con tricking you out of it in order to save you any further payments into the mortgage - both the property and the value you paid into it are gone.

There's a much easier and lawful method to get you out of the mortgage and the house... it even comes with a potential benefit to you:
  • If the current market value is at or above the outstanding mortgage + selling costs, then put up the property for sale on the market for fair market value.
Once the property is sold, part of it will go to honoring the outstanding mortgage amount, part of it will go to any costs associated with the transaction and the rest will go into your pocket.

If the Volks had followed this route, they'd still be renting. But there's a good possibility they'd have $100,000 in their savings account to show for the sale (assuming selling at the original mortgage value, not counting income tax factor).

Consider thinking deeply about two core principles:
  • 1) Renting is sending your money into a black hole - you will never see a penny of it returned.
  • 2) Paying a mortgage is an investment. Every cent you pay into the principal is value in your net worth. You won't know how much that is till you sell... but it is a real value.
It also has a much more valuable benefit:
  • Look closely at your monthly expenses. Set them out, make a note of the rent/mortgage and what percentage it is of your total monthly expenses. Don't be surprised if you realize it's the greatest expense.
  • Now... imagine if that expense was decreased to the amount of property tax.
A retired person on a fixed income has a much, much easier time of it if they don't have to pay the value of rent. An example: I rent at $1,300 per month - for the moment, I'm very close to exchanging rent for the value of a mortgage payment. The property tax is $1,416 per year, that's $118 per month. Imagine having to pay $118 per month instead of $1,300. Do the math and think about what it means to fully own your own property instead of having to pay rent ... but to get there, you must fully honor your mortgage committment.

Also consider:
  • Land does not expand. But the population does over time. As the population increases, property will continue to increase in value.
As a result, give sufficient time for market growth you could see that value as:
  • new market value - old market value - interest = profit
The real Profit being the extra above and beyond the total value you paid. Obviously the faster you pay off the principal (by making extra payments for example) the lower the total overall interest you'll pay in the long run increasing your utlimate return on investment.

Given how low current interest rates are.... renewing your mortgage with current interest rates really is a borrowers market. This is the time when you can really take advantage of the situation and do so ethically as well as lawfully. Not so long ago, mortgage interest rates were much higher. I hear they were in the high double digits in the 80s or 90s. And they're around the 3% mark today.... incredible - relatively speaking.

So please... think about your choices and what you want very carefully:
  • A) Try to keep what you gained from the agreement you entered without taking care of your responsibility = lose everything
  • B) Get rid of your responsibility lawfully handing it off to someone else so you no longer face the risk of loss = lose the value you built into the property
  • C) Get rid of your responsibility by putting the property on the market so you can at least get some of that value back
The choice is yours. What will you decide?

One final thing to think about just in case you haven't and have bought into the whole "bank was fraudulent" concept.
  • If the bank lent you fake money to buy the property then the previous owner did not get paid.
Whether the previous owner tried to use those funds to purchase another property, invest in safe low interest yields such as GICs, put it into their RRSPs.... they would have found out they didn't get paid. Don't you think - if a fraud was comitted by the mortgage lender - that the original owner would want their property back?

Think about it.

* "the path" = whatever the du jour flavor of the month is, freeman, de-taxer, whatever they want to call themselves.

** I have to outline a certain amount for the home owners.... but I'm trying to outline as little as possible to avoid showing the cons how they can lawfully implement the process and - in effect - "steal" the wealth the current homeowners have built into their property.
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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by Patriotdiscussions »

Not even close to anything I wanted to know, but good story.
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The exchange of Interest now for savings later

Post by Hyrion »

Again: The target audience for this post are those people considering "the path"... or those who have entered "the path" but haven't gone so far they can't turn back. Obviously, based on your response to the previous post, that's not you PD.

I ran a simulation. We already know what I'll save for my monthly roof (if I owned the property now) relative to what I currently pay now as rent.
  • Current monthly rent: $1,300
  • Current monthly property taxes: $118
  • Monthly savings: $1,182
So in comes the question. How much total interest* will I end up paying over the life of the mortgage... and how long will my savings later take to "pay it back".

I ran a simulation where the mortgage interest rates increased 1% every 4 years. Where I also did not pay extra into the mortgage. This was amortized over a 20 year period and utilized accelerated bi-weekly (in reality, I actually plan on paying it off much faster).
  • Total interest: $65,383
That's a lot. Not anywhere near as much as it could be at 8% interest, but still a lot.
  • $65,383 / $1,182 = 4.6 years
After 4.6 years in retirement, it's pure profit in my pocket. Profit in a manner of speaking. One should realize at that point it's not extra money in my pocket from an income source (woot, no extra tax** on that $1,182 amount), it's really an expenditure I won't have to face with my fixed-income after-tax dollars.

I don't know about anyone else, but I plan to go on living at least 10 years after I retire... preferably a couple decades longer than that :P

I certainly don't want to live those years in poverty.

Does this mean I like paying interest? Of course not. But... for someone taking the risk to lend me value I don't have now so I can own my own home that much sooner and be investing my money instead of burning it in the fireplace of rent - it's a fair trade. That, of course, doesn't mean I want to pay more... that's why I'll be paying off the principal sooner with extra payments.

* This, of course, assumes my property value won't grow over the years to the point the extra value pays for the interest.

** On a fixed income, if I still had to pay rent: I'd either expect to be living in a hovel or having to earn extra income which would then certainly fall into extra taxes (above what I withdraw from pensions and such).

That's where the extra tax can reasonably be expected to be charged - on that extra income. And I don't expect my body and/or mind to be in as good condition as compared with now... old age and all that other life deterioration stuff. So I certainly can't expect to be as employable as I am now.

Additionally, if I don't have to withdraw that amount from my RRSP in the first place, simply because I don't need it for expenses, it's that much less tax to pay at the time.
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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by LPC »

Patriotdiscussions wrote:Not even close to anything I wanted to know, but good story.
So, to you, the important issue is not whether something is true or false, but whether it is something you "wanted to know"?

Do I need to explain the implications?
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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by Patriotdiscussions »

LPC wrote:
Patriotdiscussions wrote:Not even close to anything I wanted to know, but good story.
So, to you, the important issue is not whether something is true or false, but whether it is something you "wanted to know"?

Do I need to explain the implications?
Really?

Dude is trying to sell home ownership based on savings over rent, and how does it relate to anything we have been talking about?
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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by JamesVincent »

Patriotdiscussions wrote: Dude is trying to sell home ownership based on savings over rent, and how does it relate to anything we have been talking about?
What the hell does half the shit you bring up in threads have to do with anything in the thread? The irony is painful in that sentence.
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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by Hyrion »

Dude is trying to sell home ownership
I'm not trying to sell anything. I don't work for any lender of any sort nor do I have property I wish to sell.

Does the mention of how one can save if one completely owned one's own property have anything to do with "grant(ing) title (to a property) to a trustee"? Nope. But then, as outlined one doesn't grant title to a trustee (my layman understanding) anyway... only responsibility - and likely for a regular fee paid to said trustee.

With regards monthly rental costs vs monthly property taxes:
  • I merely point out something the Volks might want to have considered before they
    • 1) Destroyed their $100,000 investment they had already made
    • 2) Took on additional costs that wasn't necessary
I've got nothing to gain by pointing out things others may* want to consider when I have asked for nothing in return for that knowledge.

I've asked for nothing, but I do find satisfaction in helping someone elses life be better if what I authored gives them pause for thought and they choose a path that does not lead to their own self-destruction as a result.

And if 1 single person who was considering following in "the path" decides, after reading what I wrote, to not destroy the investment they've built up:
  • Then the time and effort I spent on the authoring was well worth it.
If 1 single person who would otherwise have signed over the Title to their home to a "trustee" like Derek Johnson reads it and then chooses not to sign Title over:
  • Then double up on the value and satisfaction.
* In my humble opinion, these are things they - including the Volks - should have considered themselves without anyone having to specify the obviousness of the situation.
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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by AndyK »

Attention everyone :!:

A new rule has been established.

- "On any thread opened by PD, ONLY PD is allowed to introduce tangents, move goalposts, or in any other way diverge from the opening post. Anyone else who attempts to introduce logically connected material will be dealt with via derision in a poor French accent."
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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by LaVidaRoja »

Quelle suprise! Une idea avec logic!!
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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

AndyK wrote:Attention everyone :!:

A new rule has been established.

- "On any thread opened by PD, ONLY PD is allowed to introduce tangents, move goalposts, or in any other way diverge from the opening post. Anyone else who attempts to introduce logically connected material will be dealt with via derision in a poor French accent."
Great idea! From now on, I'll respond to any of PD's actions of this sort with things like random Wikipedia excerpts, links to irrelevant web sites, and instructions on various aspects of Scoutcraft.
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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by Arthur Rubin »

Pottapaug1938 wrote:
AndyK wrote:Attention everyone :!:

A new rule has been established.

- "On any thread opened by PD, ONLY PD is allowed to introduce tangents, move goalposts, or in any other way diverge from the opening post. Anyone else who attempts to introduce logically connected material will be dealt with via derision in a poor French accent."
Great idea! From now on, I'll respond to any of PD's actions of this sort with things like random Wikipedia excerpts, links to irrelevant web sites, and instructions on various aspects of Scoutcraft.
Probably more relevant than any statements PD would make.
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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by JamesVincent »

Arthur Rubin wrote:Probably more relevant than any statements PD would make.
Still a better love story then Twilight.
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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by LPC »

Pottapaug1938 wrote:From now on, I'll respond to any of PD's actions of this sort with things like random Wikipedia excerpts, links to irrelevant web sites, and instructions on various aspects of Scoutcraft.
I used to frequent a different forum, years ago, in which the regulars would respond to trolls with long quotations from boring, irrelevant documents. Sometimes federal regulations, and sometimes academic works, and occasionally cooking recipes, but always something completely irrelevant.

It was referred to a "doe snot" (i.e., "does not" misspelled).

I have access to the texts of lots of boring, irrelevant documents, so there's no lack of doe snot material at hand.
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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by arayder »

I used to respond to Eldon Warman's endless repetitions of his detax credos with postings of the Unibomber's Manifesto.

After Eldon responded inappropriately to several questions or challenges with the same off the point repetition of his detax coda I would just start posting the Unibomber's Manifesto.

Warman and others complained that it was spam, but I would point out that Eldon had just spent several days avoiding giving an honest answer via his version of spam.
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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by Famspear »

All these comments are giving me my own idea for a way to respond in these situations: I know of a provision of the Internal Revenue Code (which I may have posted somewhere in one of these threads in the past) that consists of one sentence of over 400 words. Not only would it be irrelevant to whatever gibberish the offending party would have posted, but the provision was repealed by Congress many years ago. I would argue that there could be something poetic about posting something like that in response to postings by trolls.

:twisted:

EDIT: Of course, in terms of poetry, I could also do as I have been known to do in the past: respond with a limerick.

:twisted:
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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by Dezcad »

Famspear wrote:All these comments are giving me my own idea for a way to respond in these situations: I know of a provision of the Internal Revenue Code (which I may have posted somewhere in one of these threads in the past) that consists of one sentence of over 400 words. Not only would it be irrelevant to whatever gibberish the offending party would have posted, but the provision was repealed by Congress many years ago. I would argue that there could be something poetic about posting something like that in response to postings by trolls.

:twisted:

EDIT: Of course, in terms of poetry, I could also do as I have been known to do in the past: respond with a limerick.

:twisted:
FWIW, I'll take the 400 word sentence. :P
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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by KickahaOta »

So those are our options? Oh geez!
A limerick or long legalese?
Both damage the psyche!
Which answer? Oh, crikey...
I'll just unsubscribe, if you please!
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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by morrand »

morrand wrote:
Patriotdiscussions wrote: Deeds usually contain covenants concerning seisin, good right to convey ...
Livery of seisin has been abolished over by here. ...

So, PD, how does that affect things?
Any time you're ready to give an answer, go on ahead.
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Re: How can you grant title and rights to a trustee

Post by JennyD »

AndyK wrote:Attention everyone :!:

A new rule has been established.

- "On any thread opened by PD, ONLY PD is allowed to introduce tangents, move goalposts, or in any other way diverge from the opening post. Anyone else who attempts to introduce logically connected material will be dealt with via derision in a poor French accent."
Is it OK to say that I am absolutely and totally confused at this point as to what this thread is about anymore?