Sovereign arrested in place of STRAWMAN

[webhick]

Webhick:

Can you, at least temporarily untill he confesses his blatant fraud, assigh the moniker as suggested above?

You'll have to ask an admin about that. Until then, I've got a sharpie, and I know how to use it.

[Cobalt Shiva]

A note from a relative (younger) I consulted regarding the upper and lower case data issue:

________________, I think it's a holdover related to printing issues with lower-case descenders back in your day (lol!). That and keypunch/data entry error reduction.

That makes sense.

I agree completely, but I'll ask again, "How long do they have to holdover from yesteryear?"

It seems to me with advancement of computing and printing most of that should be gone. And, in fact, much of it is, but there's still systems out there that cannot print both cases.

If a system supports both cases, I think the holdover should end. Just my opinion.

The US military still sends a great deal of official message traffic in upper case only . . . to maintain compatibility with radio teletype systems.

The earliest date where we can reasonably expect to end the RTTY requirement is somewhere around 2040 or so.

COBOL is forever, baby.

[wserra]

COBOL is forever, baby.

COBOL ... Cobalt ... hmm.

Welcome back.

[ASITStands]

The US military still sends a great deal of official message traffic in upper case only . . . to maintain compatibility with radio teletype systems.

The earliest date where we can reasonably expect to end the RTTY requirement is somewhere around 2040 or so.

COBOL is forever, baby.

COBOL I understand but why do we have to continue using ALL CAPS in court documents?

Or, why do utility companies have to continue using ALL CAPS in customer billings? Or, any other number of instances too numerous to mention? I understand programming languages.

Other than messing with People's heads what excuse is there to continue the practice?

Understand! I'm not making a sovereign argument here but the excuse is flimsy on the side of government and industry when both UPPER and LOWER case exists on modern computers.

[Cobalt Shiva]

The US military still sends a great deal of official message traffic in upper case only . . . to maintain compatibility with radio teletype systems.

The earliest date where we can reasonably expect to end the RTTY requirement is somewhere around 2040 or so.

COBOL is forever, baby.

COBOL I understand but why do we have to continue using ALL CAPS in court documents?

Or, why do utility companies have to continue using ALL CAPS in customer billings? Or, any other number of instances too numerous to mention? I understand programming languages.

Other than messing with People's heads what excuse is there to continue the practice?

Understand! I'm not making a sovereign argument here but the excuse is flimsy on the side of government and industry when both UPPER and LOWER case exists on modern computers.

Money. Specifically, the cost of ripping out all of those old "legacy" data processing systems and replacing them de novo, while simultaneously maintaining interoperability between different agencies (i.e., the ability to move data automatically, without requiring manual intervention to reparse it into a format that the receiving agency can use). All that for a purely cosmetic change that makes no difference whatsoever.

I gave just one example (military message traffic) of how various information exchange systems represent, for want of a better word, "congealed standards." RTTY has been around nearly 100 years, and it's still one of the most widely used standards for data exchange in a military context--it's a stable standard that doesn't change, so hardware procured 40 years ago still works; it's extremely robust against jamming (just crank up the effective radiated power and repeat each character block several times), et cetera. The downside? It's all caps only.

Courts exchange information with all manner of government entities, across county, state, and international boundaries. Changing all of that is nontrivial, especially when it requires changes to software. Hardware is easy--it's a thing, and you can see rather quickly if it works or not. Software is purely conceptual and abstract. It's freakin' HARD to do correctly. Making software that works correctly across that many domains is downright amazing. (Suggested reading: Dreaming in Code by Scott Rosenberg; it's pretty recent, it should be in your local library.)

[Demosthenes]

Nobody besides tax protesters give a damn whether something is all caps or not, and it's a whole lot simpler for lawyers and utility company employees to use all caps.

When you're skimming a legal document to read or edit it, the all caps names stand out on the page.

When you have defendants or clients with names like JJ MacNab or Bob deYoung or Barbara dell'Osso or DeShawn Lewis or whatever, using all caps is a whole lot simpler.

[The Operative]

Nobody besides JACK-*SSES give a damn whether something is all caps or not, and it's a whole lot simpler for lawyers and utility company employees to use all caps.

When you're skimming a legal document to read or edit it, the all caps names stand out on the page.

When you have defendants or clients with names like JJ MacNab or Bob deYoung or Barbara dell'Osso or DeShawn Lewis or whatever, using all caps is a whole lot simpler.

I corrected one error you made.

You didn't put it in ALL CAPS.

[ASITStands]

'Cobalt Shiva' came close to satisfying my curiosity.

The rest of you are just posturing with spurious ideas. 'CaptainKickback' It ain't easier to read! If you think it is, let's all start using ALL CAPS when we post on Quatloos. 'Demo' I sort of understand the ALL CAPS names standing out when skimming a document, but ....

The ALL CAPS names only appear on specific pages, and I've seen many briefs written by government attorneys where both UPPER and LOWER case is used for names.

It ain't universally used, and it has nothing to do with the transfer of information. Dockets. That's probably another matter. Lexis uses UPPER case but Westlaw uses both.

There could be an argument FOR using both cases. (And, don't ya just hate it when someone capitalizes a word for emphasis? The most annoying in my mind is WE.) Using both cases, proper case by using UPPER and LOWER case, would eliminate the sovereign argument.

No more STRAWMAN argument perpetrated by those folks who use ALL CAPS names!

Ok. Someone gave me a copy of Black's Law Dictionary, Second Edition.

(Oops! I should have written that as BLACK'S LAW DICTIONARY, SECOND EDITION.)

And, interestingly enough, it contains no entry for STRAWMAN, whereas, LATER EDITIONS do.

I'm losing it with this ALL CAPS thing! It makes no sense when it's not necessary.

Obsolete programming languages make sense, and the cost of changing all the legacay software makes sense. And, the RTTY standard makes sense, but just because someone thinks it's easier to read ... STOP SHOUTING AT THE REST OF US, PLEASE!

My background is IT, and nothing was more irritating than someone composing an e-mail in ALL CAPS. And, surprisingly enough, sometimes it was a mid-level manager. I realize we're talking about different things, but I detest seeing ALL CAPS when it's not necessary.

And, there ya have it. Let's all start using ALL CAPS ALL THE TIME AND IRRITATE THAT GUY.

[Demosthenes]

'Cobalt Shiva' came close to satisfying my curiosity.

The rest of you are just posturing with spurious ideas.

How was my post spurious?

In legal documents, the use of all caps is nothing deeper than a stylistic convention. Some use it, some don't. The courts don't care, the attorneys don't care, the court clerks don't care. The only ones who care are the ones who think it hold some secret significance. It doesn't. As someone who reads a lot of court documents for a living, I appreciate it when the drafter places emphasis on the parties in question. I've also seen a lot of cookie cutter type estate planning documents where the drafter didn't quite replace all of the original names with the new one.

Utility companies and such use it because it's simpler. Not all names have consistent use of capital letters, so there's no hard and fast rule to follow. Otherwise my name would be Jj Macnab, instead of JJ MacNab. By shifting every letter to majuscules, the customer service person setting up your account saves time. And really, who cares what the account name looks like on your bill?

My background is IT, and nothing was more irritating than someone composing an e-mail in ALL CAPS. And, surprisingly enough, sometimes it was a mid-level manager. I realize we're talking about different things, but I detest seeing ALL CAPS when it's not necessary.

It isn't an email or an internet posting, so it isn't violating the no-shouting netiquette rule. Furthermore, granted it's been a looonnnng time since I've done any programming, isn't it the stylistic convention in many programming languages to use all caps when to mark something as a constant (just like legal documents...)

[wserra]

In legal documents, the use of all caps is nothing deeper than a stylistic convention. Some use it, some don't. The courts don't care, the attorneys don't care, the court clerks don't care.

I've been writing legal docs for 33 years. Demo's exactly right.

[Judge Roy Bean]

'Round these parts, most of the miscreants can't even read, let alone discern upper and lower case.

[ASITStands]

In legal documents, the use of all caps is nothing deeper than a stylistic convention. Some use it, some don't. The courts don't care, the attorneys don't care, the court clerks don't care.

I've been writing legal docs for 33 years. Demo's exactly right.

Yeah, I can agree with that.

However ....

It isn't an email or an internet posting, so it isn't violating the no-shouting netiquette rule. Furthermore, granted it's been a looonnnng time since I've done any programming, isn't it the stylistic convention in many programming languages to use all caps when to mark something as a constant (just like legal documents...)

My son is a programmer with General Dynamics, and yes, some use ALL CAPS variables, and they use it precisely as you suggest, for the ease of reading. But, it's not necessary!

And, that's my argument. It's unnecessary with modern computers and languages.

I know programmers who write in lower case, and teach the same. Reading can be affected by placement on the page, indentation, etc., so ALL CAPS variables are unnecessary.

When I wrote the earlier post, I considered the "easier to read" comment spurious, and I distinctly said, "'Demo' I sort of understand the ALL CAPS names standing out when skimming a document, but ...." I still consider it unnecessary, particularly court documents.

Why do I care? I mentioned the use of WE. I always feel like the person is excluding me when they use that particular capitalized expression, and I get a similar impression when I read ALL CAPS names, in that, the meaning seems beyond a simple stylistic convention.

For one thing, point me to the place where it actually says, "This is a stylistic convention." All I ever hear is, "It's a holdover from an earlier time," with the usual computer explanation.

I have no other explanation for my distaste of this particular convention.

[Demosthenes]

My reasons for hating clowns are kind of similar.

Note to self: change ASITStand's login name to asitstands ASAP ... er ... asap.

[Nikki]

Once upon a time, there was a piece of equipment called a card punch or key punch.

In specific, I'm referring to the IBM Model 026.

This device did not do -- without a LOT of work -- lower case characters.

Data processing at the time didn't care. As long as the information got into the 1401 or 7040, it would get processed.

One result of this was that character fields were always stored as upper-case characters.

Over time, data entry equipment became more sophisticated to the point that you had to hold down the SHIFT key -- or tuen on CAPS LOCK -- to enter anyhting other than lower case characters.

But wait! A problem pops up. In the extremely literal brains of computers "A" is not equal to "a".

Thus, historical data files consisting of all upper case characters can not be easily compared to anything other than other all upper case files.

What to do? Shall we convert all of our historical data to mixed case? Shall we write sophisticated comparison routines that ingore case (and comparable routines that SORT data irrespective of case)?

No. We'll just stick with upper case because we know it works.

[ASITStands]

My reasons for hating clowns are kind of similar.

Note to self: change ASITStand's login name to asitstands ASAP ... er ... asap.

Well, don't hate me! And, don't call me a clown We all have little irritations that get under our skin for no apparent reason. I must have triggered one of yours. Go easy!

Initially, it was AsITStands but somewhere when the forum changed, it changed.

Good explanation, 'Nikki.' I knew that. I just don't like it.

[Demosthenes]

Well, don't hate me! And, don't call me a clown We all have little irritations that get under our skin for no apparent reason. I must have triggered one of yours. Go easy!

I am going easy. Clowns (and mimes!) give me the heebie jeebies. My reasons for hating them aren't rational. They're just nightmarishly annoying.

I'm not saying you're a clown. I'm comparing your freak-outedness about all caps to my freak-outedness about freaks in white grease paint and ugly shoes.

[Judge Roy Bean]

...

I am going easy. Clowns (and mimes!) give me the heebie jeebies. My reasons for hating them aren't rational. They're just nightmarishly annoying.

I'm not saying you're a clown. I'm comparing your freak-outedness about all caps to my freak-outedness about freaks in white grease paint and ugly shoes.

Demo is coulrophobic.

[Blup]

I was recently doing an eviction defense for a guy who's into the freeman movement (couldn't pay his bills, surprise surprise), and I started out with his name on the pleadings, motions, etc. in all caps. Then he pointed to it and said "told you so," so I immediately started writing his name in normal (initial caps) font, to show him that it doesn't matter. But it didn't seem to convince him. The court didn't care one way or the other.

[ASITStands]

I was recently doing an eviction defense for a guy who's into the freeman movement (couldn't pay his bills, surprise surprise), and I started out with his name on the pleadings, motions, etc. in all caps. Then he pointed to it and said "told you so," so I immediately started writing his name in normal (initial caps) font, to show him that it doesn't matter. But it didn't seem to convince him. The court didn't care one way or the other.

That's exactly my point! I find it useful to debunk the ALL CAPS heresy from the beginning by using proper case with everything I do (with one exception - UNITED STATES OF AMERICA).

Yep. I'm guilty. I use proper case for the Plaintiff/Defendant when it's a Person but UNITED STATES OF AMERICA when it's the Plaintiff/Defendant. I use proper case with an entity.

It's sort of throwing the whole ALL CAPS heresy back in the face of the government.

I've admitted it's a phobia, but I just like tweaking the nose of the sovereign types when showing them it doesn't make any difference. Solves the problem up front.

[buck09]

I was recently doing an eviction defense for a guy who's into the freeman movement (couldn't pay his bills, surprise surprise),

Couldn't or wouldn't? I've noticed that for most paytriots, it's not much of a logical leap to justify not paying things like credit card bills. "The bank makes money out of thin air". "My credit card issuer is a bank, issuing me 'credit' out of thin air". Ergo "I don't have to pay a debt that was a fiction anyways."

Welcome to the forum BTW, just out of curiosity, what part of the country are you in, and do you find yourself dealing with these types of wingnuts regularly?