Being sovereign means TVs are free

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Pottapaug1938
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Re: Being sovereign means TVs are free

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

Brandybuck wrote:
Pottapaug1938 wrote:An underlying problem is that, when it comes to money, many Americans are just plain stupid.
Not stupid, just ignorant. And not necessarily ignorant in a bad way. The problem is not the people, the problem is that the money keeps changing its appearance. For more than a half century our money stayed the same (except for an occasional 2$ bill), and then suddenly in the the last decade it started changing all the time.

Sometimes these changes are announced in the Sunday paper color supplement, but that doesn't mean everyone will see it. Often the first time someone sees a new change is when the receive the bill as change or payment. For example, I knew all about the new state quarters, but no one told me about the new nickels with the very fake looking Jefferson profile. I had to tap it first to check that it was real.

Another example was when I was given a purple bill as change. Purple? Purple! WTF? The five dollar bill had already been changed a few years before, so what was this new PURPLE bill? I was not at all sure if it were real, so I asked the cashier for a different one.

I would do the same thing if I received a blue bill tomorrow. Who knows, maybe that's the new color in 2012! I could check with the Treasury website every week to see if they've fiddled with the designs again, but I have better things to do with my time.

I am insulted that you think that makes me "plain stupid".
That's not at all what I meant. I was talking about the people who think that a $2 bill must be counterfeit because they have never seen one before, or who think that a Kennedy half dollar "isn't American money". I'm talking about the people who hoard anything that looks unfamiliar because it's "rare", and thus "will be worth 'money' someday". On top of that, I said that "many" Americans are stupid about money. Not "all", but "many".

Keep in mind, also, that in the past our money changed its appearance quite frequently, and people had no problem with that. But now, MANY (BUT NOT ALL) Americans get their undergarments in a twist at the thought of having to deal with money that doesn't look the same as the designs they are used to seeing.
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Re: Being sovereign means TVs are free

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

BTW, the reason for the new colors on our currency is that modern color copiers are getting extremely good in reproducing crisp, detailed images, which means that the current issue of bills has had to include subtle colors which cannot be adequately imitated by color copiers. To me, it often looks like the bills have sat in a puddle in which the tip of a water-soluble felt-tip marker has also been sitting; but it it makes the bills harded to counterfeit then I'm okay with that.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture." -- Pastor Ray Mummert, Dover, PA, during an attempt to introduce creationism -- er, "intelligent design", into the Dover Public Schools
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Re: Being sovereign means TVs are free

Post by penny2 »

Pottapaug1938 wrote:
penny2 wrote:How about homes are free? I know somone that said he stopped his foreclosure right before he was evicted by doing some sort of cease and desist at the hearing (with the advice of a Sovereign Attorney in fact). He said he got his deed sent to him in the mail shortly after and is now getting back all of his monthly payments he ever made on the house because the mortgage note was illegal.

He also said that if it would ever come to play that it did for some reason go up for Sheriff aale, this same Attorney in Fact, would just start slapping judgements on the Judge at the Foreclosure hearing.

Wouldn't everyone be doing that if that was the case?
Bingo.

Here is how the Francisco Antonio Velez (attorney in fact) magic worked for this guy...look at case #12.... IT WORKS, IT REALLY REALLY WORKS.... NOT


http://www.lehighcounty.org/Departments ... fault.aspx
Look at April 27th... EMC Mortgage vs. Daniel A. Friend 3139 Westwood place
penny2

Re: Being sovereign means TVs are free

Post by penny2 »

Being Sovereign must also mean receiving free utilities... I was made aware of a Sovereign Citizen that is bragging that he owes over $10K to the electric company in our area of Oz, and pays with a "stamp" charging his bond. I know people that have been shut off for missing 2 bills. Is there something to this? I would be living on kerosene heaters and candles... My question is how do they get away with this? I am just an early learner of their scams... Does it ever catch up? :thinking:
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Re: Being sovereign means TVs are free

Post by JamesVincent »

penny2 wrote:Being Sovereign must also mean receiving free utilities... I was made aware of a Sovereign Citizen that is bragging that he owes over $10K to the electric company in our area of Oz, and pays with a "stamp" charging his bond. I know people that have been shut off for missing 2 bills. Is there something to this? I would be living on kerosene heaters and candles... My question is how do they get away with this? I am just an early learner of their scams... Does it ever catch up? :thinking:
He very well may owe $10k to the electric company and the company may very well have came out and shut him off. And he very well may have turned around afterward and disabled the meter and removed the blank they put in there to keep you from getting electricity when they shut you off, something I dont recommend. If its a single family home once the power is turned off they might not check it in who knows how long and if its the old style meter with the spinning disk theres ways to disable them. The newer digital meters are harder.
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Re: Being sovereign means TVs are free

Post by Kestrel »

penny2 wrote:Being Sovereign must also mean receiving free utilities... I was made aware of a Sovereign Citizen that is bragging that he owes over $10K to the electric company in our area of Oz, and pays with a "stamp" charging his bond. I know people that have been shut off for missing 2 bills. Is there something to this? I would be living on kerosene heaters and candles... My question is how do they get away with this? I am just an early learner of their scams... Does it ever catch up? :thinking:
Typically such braggarts like to let you know how much they've stolen, but the claimed methods (the "stamp") are a little misleading.

I had a friend whose tenants weren't proclaimed sov'runs, but they believed in obtaining things free whenever possible. After this included "free rent" long enough she finally managed to get them evicted. Inspecting the damage to the house afterwards, she discovered they got their utilities "free" too.

The electricity was hooked up legitimately, but extra stuff they had in the garage was powered by a "self-help" connection which bypassed the meter. The water was the fun part. Seems their water company has a practice of capping off the main and removing the meter when the departing occupant terminates service. This set of tenants hadn't bothered to contact the water company when they first moved in - they simply installed a self-help connection to the main. (Hey, water falls from the sky, so it should be free, right?) Officially there had been no water service to the house for over two years. The water company work crew discovered the illegal hookup and promptly recapped the line. Being unable to find the evicted tenants, the water company demanded the landlord pay a $1000 fine before they would reestablish service.
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Re: Being sovereign means TVs are free

Post by morrand »

penny2 wrote:Being Sovereign must also mean receiving free utilities... I was made aware of a Sovereign Citizen that is bragging that he owes over $10K to the electric company in our area of Oz, and pays with a "stamp" charging his bond. I know people that have been shut off for missing 2 bills. Is there something to this? I would be living on kerosene heaters and candles... My question is how do they get away with this? I am just an early learner of their scams... Does it ever catch up? :thinking:
Hi there.

Yes, it does. Witness the sad Illinois case of one Mr. Jeffrey Mandalis Copyright MMVIII (ICC Docket 08-0241, Final Order):
ALJ Riley wrote: By the Commission:

I. PROCEDURAL HISTORY

On March 28, 2008, Jeffery Mandalis Copyright MMVIII (“Mr. Mandalis” or “Complainant”) filed a verified complaint pursuant to Section 10-108 of the Illinois Public Utilities Act (220 ILCS 5/10-108) (“the Act”), against Commonwealth Edison Company (“ComEd” or “Respondent”). Complainant alleged that Respondent accepted his credit for par value, established account #4385685034 and used the aforesaid credit to accrue revenue and credit its revenue account. Complainant drafted a credit for the outstanding balance ($1,097.96) and remitted said credit by certified mail. Respondent refused the credit after having used it to accrue revenue and demanded the credit of a third party while acknowledging that banks do not pay money, but only give credit on account or federal reserve notes for dollar-denominated credits. Complainant asserted that Respondent be directed to honor Complainant’s credit if it intends to use Complainant’s credit to accrue revenue. Otherwise it should bill “occupant”.

[...]

II. COMPLAINANT POSITION
Complainant testified that, upon receipt of a bill from Respondent in December 2007, he drafted a credit and remitted it in satisfaction of the bill. He added that his credit has the same par value as the bill and the same value at par that Respondent is holding on his account in its accounts receivable.

Complainant testified that he had not legally changed his name to Jeffery Mandalis MMVIII and he had not received a federal copyright for it. He stated that it was not his name that he was copyrighting, but what his name appears on. It is a common law copyright and is proper under the Common Law Act in Illinois. In response to the question whether he was aware that he was using a fictitious name, he replied that he was not using it as a name. (5/22/08 Tr. at 40)

Complainant testified that he has attempted to pay only Respondent and the Peoples Gas Light and Coke Company (Peoples Gas) using the credit of Jeffrey Mandalis Copyright MMVIII. He added that he pays rent to his landlord usually with a check from a currency exchange and that he recently paid his $1400 electric bill at a currency exchange with 14 $100-denominated federal reserve notes, which he said were not money or cash but notes for money-denominated credit. He explained that each note is commonly known as a $100 bill, but it is not cash or dollars[, and so on --M]. Complainant testified that he had not heard from Peoples Gas whether it would accept his credit as payment. (5/22/08 Tr. at 47)

Mr. Mandalis testified that his remarks at the April 22, 2008 prehearing conference were still valid statements. He acknowledged that he had stated that “Essentially, as I understand it, ComEd will debit cash and credit revenue when the bill is issued. When they receive payment, they will debit cash and then credit accounts receivable.” (4/28/08 Tr. at 7; 5/22/08 Tr. at 50) He also acknowledged that he had said, in response to an objection to the relevancy of his complaint, “Well, the relevancy of it would be that if ComEd is on the accrual basis of accounting, as it is most – as is most likely, then they accrue revenue and credited (sic) the revenue account when they billed my account and not when they received the money. So in order to do that, they had to use my equity, my credit for value, and now they’re trying to say that my credit is not value. It’s kind of a very simple issue. It’s whether or not my credit has to be accepted for value or if they can choose what method of payment they want.” (4/28/08 Tr. at 6; 5/22/08 Tr. at 51)

Mr. Mandalis testified that Respondent was currently attempting to compel him to remit the credit of the federal reserve system, a third party, yet his credit was fine when they wanted to accrue revenue. (5/22/08 Tr. at 51) He said the following remark from April 22 was also still his position: “Well, what I am saying is that they used my credit for value when they accrue revenue, when they debit accounts receivable. They’re holding that accounts receivable on their balance sheet as an asset. Then when I send them the exact same thing, they try to say my credit isn’t for value.” (4/28/08 Tr. at 9; 5/22/08 Tr. at 51-52) He testified that if Respondent refuses tender of value, the obligation is discharged and cited 810 ILCS 5/3-503 in his closing Brief as support. (5/22/08 Tr. at 53) Mr. Mandalis concluded that it was his understanding that Respondent would not accept future payments in credits and that it would prefer payment in gold coins, federal reserve notes, or a check from Chase bank. (5/22/08 Tr. at 52-53)

III. RESPONDENT POSITION

Respondent offered Cross Exhibit 1 into evidence, a piece of paper containing a photostat of a certified mail receipt and handwriting reading “credit only $1097.96 without debit Jeffery Mandalis copyright MMVIII all rights reserved authorized signature 4385685034”, issued by Complainant in attempted satisfaction of the amount of $1097.96 billed by Respondent for electric service. Respondent did not present a witness.

[...]

V. COMMISSION ANALYSIS AND CONCLUSIONS

Complainant alleges that paying his electric bill with a written credit on a piece of paper gave specifically defined value to Respondent after Respondent acquired value in the form of a credit using Complainant’s name. The Commission should therefore compel Respondent to accept payment in this manner since value is given for value. The Commission finds that Complainant has alleged nothing that the Commission is able to identify as a legally recognizable complaint against Respondent. Complainant does not allege a violation of any particular statute, rule or regulation by Respondent in rejecting this form of payment, and no such statutory or regulatory violation was cited to the Commission during the pendency of this proceeding. Moreover, Complainant failed to cite any legal authority or allege any legal basis that would require Respondent to accept payment in the form described in this Docket.

Pursuant to 220 ILCS 5/2-615, if a pleading is objected to by a motion to dismiss because it is substantially insufficient in law, i.e. there is no legally identifiable claim stated, the motion must specify the insufficiency. The Commission finds that Respondent has clearly identified the lack of legal sufficiency in this complaint. Respondent’s counsel aptly pointed out in making the motion that Complainant has no actual complaint against Commonwealth Edison. Complainant subsequently paid his electric bill in cash, which is commonly accepted worldwide. Complainant therefore has no complaint against Commonwealth Edison and the matter should be dismissed. (5/22/08 Tr. at 57).

The Commission concludes that Complainant has failed to state a legally recognizable claim against Respondent and Respondent’s motion to dismiss this complaint with prejudice should be granted.
I should mention that this case is near and dear to me because it was my first exposure to this kind of stuff, which indirectly led me here. I can't help but delurk when the subject just happens to come up.

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Re: Being sovereign means TVs are free

Post by wserra »

Welcome, and de-lurk more often.

Is that what you need to do in order to fire the disruptors?
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morrand
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Re: Being sovereign means TVs are free

Post by morrand »

So, I saw Christopher Cannon's appeal come up in the 7th Circuit's orders this week, and had a whole long thing written up explaining the history of the case, and never really realized that the case would take me full circle on the forum. I hope that's not a sign of some sort.

Cannon's appeal (actually, Cannon-Bey's appeal, depending on which documents you read) is actually of two cases: his counterfeiting case, and a later insurance fraud case in which he used a bogus lease to get replacement housing money from the insurance company after his house burned down. That case drew an indictment in January, 2012, after he'd been convicted in the first case, but before he'd been sentenced. More on that in a minute.

The transcripts are also posted in the district court case. A sample of the legal tactics that got him ejected from in front of MJ Andrew Rodovich:
MR. FLYNN [for the Defense]: Your Honor --
THE DEFENDANT: Objection.
THE COURT: I will speak to you if I want to. Mr. Flynn is your attorney.
THE DEFENDANT: No, he isn't. For the record, no, he isn't.
MR. FLYNN: Your Honor --
THE DEFENDANT: For the record, my name is Christopher H. Cannon-Bey.
MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I have entered my appearance. (Inaudible.)
THE COURT: Mr. Flynn, I have attempted to explain to the defendant that he has the right to represent himself, but he has to answer some questions so that I am satisfied that it is a knowing and voluntary waiver of his right to counsel. He has chosen not to answer my questions. He feels that he has a right to lecture me and ask me questions, and I have told him "no." So if he is willing to answer questions to determine whether or not it is a knowing and voluntary waiver, I will go through that dialogue. If he is not, I have appointed you. And you are his attorney until --
THE DEFENDANT: Objection. He's not my attorney. I'm in propria persona.
THE COURT: I told you I'm not listening to your dialogues, your monologues. Do you want to answer my questions concerning whether or not you are waiving your right to an attorney, or are you going to just --
THE DEFENDANT: I would like to place my name and status on the record.
THE COURT: I'm not interested in that. I asked you one simple question. Are you going to answer my questions, or are you going to carry on your own monologue?
THE DEFENDANT: I do not wish to contract with your corporation.
THE COURT: Okay. I know we've been through that before. Mr. Flynn, apparently your client does not want to answer my questions.
THE DEFENDANT: He cannot speak for me.
THE COURT: Do you want to proceed with the detention hearing and the arraignment today, or do you want to try one more time to talk to him?
MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I think we're prepared to proceed. I don't anticipate he's going to be willing to converse with me. I will represent him zealously if I'm appointed as his attorney.
THE COURT: Is there any evidence that the Government is going to offer other than the indictment and the pre-bond report?
MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honor. By way of proffer, I would just like to advise the Court that in addition to the presentence report, which we ask you to take judicial notice of in the actual indictment, the Government has been given cases from numerous federal agencies; and by Government, I mean me. We are prepared to indict Mr. Cannon on numerous counts of fraud, both mail fraud, wire fraud, food stamp fraud. We have also been given a submission by the ATF to indict Mr. Cannon for being a felon in possession of firearms and ammunition. We believe he is an armed career criminal based on his criminal history. The penalties for that indictment alone would be a mandatory minimum of 15 years and a maximum of life.
THE COURT: You have no standing to speak in this court. Any other evidence that the Government wants to offer?
MR. STEWART: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Mr. Flynn, anything that you want to say on behalf of Mr. Cannon?
MR. FLYNN: Yes, Your Honor. I would note that Mr. Cannon has very substantial --
THE COURT: I told you that I'm not listening to you. Be quiet. No, you cannot speak.
THE DEFENDANT: He cannot speak for me.
THE COURT: Mr. Flynn.
MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I would note that Mr. Cannon has two parents who live in the Chicago area --
THE COURT: I'll remove you from the courtroom, and you could listen to these proceedings in the holding cell if you do not be quiet. Those are your options. Sit there quietly and listen to your attorney, or I will remove you.
THE DEFENDANT: He is not my attorney, sir.
THE COURT: Well, you won't answer my questions concerning waiving the right to have an attorney.
All right. Mr. Flynn, proceed.
MR. FLYNN: Yes, Your Honor. Mr. Cannon --
THE COURT: Okay. Take him out. Put him in the holding cell so that he could listen to the proceedings there.
THE DEFENDANT: Under United States Code, Title --
THE COURT: Is the system on in there? I want to make sure he can hear it. It's on? Okay. Mr. Flynn.
MR. FLYNN: Yes, Your Honor.
He fared no better in front of Judge Van Bokkelen, who eventually wound up hearing both sets of charged against him, and who wound up striking many of his sovrun-flavored documents. Whether it was this, or the very rapid pace of the trial (he was arrested on the first set of charges on April Fool's Day, 2011, and convicted on December 8 of that year), he did not manage to get as many gibberish documents into the record as you may have seen elsewhere. Of particular interest, he did file a letter from Drew Ali and Marul A. Zvalton-El (or something; the judge could not make out the signature clearly) at the Moorish Consulate Post, which naturally had no effect on anything other than to make Judge Van Bokkelen strike it out.

The 7th Circuit summarized events in the first trial thus:
Cannon did his best to avoid making a choice. He said repeatedly that he did not want any help from his appointed lawyer, yet he also insisted that he was unwilling to represent himself. At a status hearing a few weeks before trial, the district judge had understood Cannon to be asking that his appointed lawyer be discharged and that he be allowed to represent himself. When the judge acceded but appointed the same lawyer as standby counsel, Cannon responded,“Well, I still must object because I’m not representing myself here today.” That comment prompted the judge to reconsider, and when Cannon next appeared before him a few weeks later, the judge once more asked if he wanted to represent himself. Cannon replied, “I do not wish to contract with your corporation at all,” and the judge, seeking clarification, asked, “That means you don’t want to represent yourself, correct?” Cannon answered: “I do not wish to contract with your corporation. I give you a better answer. I do not consent waiver of benefit.” When the judge probed further, Cannon continued, “Well, what I prefer to do here, sir, is formally request and demand my diplomatic immunity under my treaty and enforce my treaty here today with the United States and ask—and formally request and demand that the United States honor and request my treaty.” That was enough for the judge, who reappointed Cannon’s lawyer.
And,
Throughout the pretrial proceedings Cannon had voiced his frivolous legal theories in countless statements made in open court. He often refused to answer the district court’s questions, treating those inquiries as invitations to lodge an objection or pose his own question to the court, and he had no qualms about interrupting the court or counsel during the proceedings. Because of this history, Cannon’s own lawyer proposed immediately before jury selection that he be excluded from the courtroom during trial. Cannon responded with more of the same frivolous objections and statements. The district judge tried reasoning with him and asked multiple times if he would allow his lawyer to represent him without interruption. Cannon would not answer and continued his spiel, even after the judge twice warned that further interruptions would lead to exclusion from the courtroom. Cannon’s disruptive behavior justified removing him, and that misconduct did not abate when, at each break in the trial, the judge had Cannon returned to the courtroom to see if he was willing to control himself.
This is all in discussion of Cannon:Bey's pro se appeal of the counterfeiting charge, which went about as well as you'd expect. While he was represented by counsel in his appeal from the insurance fraud conviction, counsel filed an Anders motion, trying to get out of it. About the strongest point that counsel raised was that the prosecution had recommended a 20-year sentence, even though the Guidelines range for fraud was 18 to 24 months, raising a specter of vindictive prosecution. Agreeing with counsel that the disparity was not relevant, the Court then went on to point out that:
we would not even find error because the recommended sentence could well have been justified. The prosecutor argued that the district judge should exercise his discretion under 18 U.S.C. § 3553(a) to impose the statutory maximum sentence. According to the prosecutor, a 20-year sentence is justified by evidence submitted at the sentencing hearing that Cannon had committed other uncharged crimes, including attempting to commit more insurance fraud after a fire in another residence he owned, defrauding the food stamp program of $600,000, and unlawfully possessing six guns, including a semi-automatic rifle with an obliterated serial number. Cannon’s criminal history includes a burglary conviction and a serious drug felony conviction, so the gun possession by itself could have led to a guidelines range as high as 168 to 210 months.
The appeal ended on one note of hope, though:
We acknowledge, however, that the circuits are divided over whether restitution is a civil or criminal penalty, see [United States v.] Wolfe, 701 F.3d at 1217 (noting circuit split), and Cannon may petition the Supreme Court for a writ of certiorari if he so desires. See Austin v. United States, 513 U.S. 5, 5–6 (1994).
Which makes me wonder what the clerks at the Supreme Court have done to the 7th Circuit to draw that kind of abuse, but then, maybe an appeal would have been inevitable anyway.
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Re: Being sovereign means TVs are free

Post by fortinbras »

With reference to Christopher H. Cannon of Gary, Ind., he considers himself above the law because of his membership in the Moorish movement.

http://posttrib.suntimes.com/news/lake/ ... court.html