Ron Paul to speak at "Sovrun" conference

[Brandybuck]

Social security and medicare taxes are about 42% of government revenues, and about 39% of government spending. Interest is 5%, "other mandatory" is 17%, 39+5+17 = 61%. The government has a constitutional duty to provide for the national defense, so you still have to leave something in the budget for the military whether you like it or not.

You're assuming Social Security and Medicare are untouchable. Maybe they are politically untouchable, but mathematically they are not. There are lots of things you can do to rein in that spending, such as means testing, upping the retirement age, etc. A tough problem, sure, but not impossible. As for the military you could cut it by half and still have the best fighting force in the world.

Competing currencies within the same country??? That's completely ludicrous. It worked back in the colonial days only because interstate commerce was virtually non-existent. It won't work now.

It works today in Scotland. And it worked in the US until 1933. It's not ludicrous.

Also consider that hardly anyone uses notes anymore, we use checks and credit cards. Banks are able to handle multiple check issuers and credit card companies just fine. Banks already routinely handle other banks instruments, and will be able to handle notes from other banks just as easily. That's what clearing houses are for.

One of the reasons the US got off the gold standard was because the reserve fraction was reduced so much during the Viet Nam War that the connection became nearly meaningless.

That's because we had inflated so damned much that other nations were sucking out our reserves. And that was the international gold exchange standard. Actual gold backed currency had disappeared in 1933.

Please note that I am not trying to convince or convert you. I am only rebutting your assertion that "the math doesn't compute". The math does indeed compute, it just doesn't correspond to your subjective political opinion.

[Pottapaug1938]

The "competing currencies" in the United States were gold certificates, silver certificates, United States Notes, FRNs, and National Currency. For a good description of each, check out:

http://www.friesian.com/notes.htm

However, these notes did not "compete" with each other the way that banknotes issued by private banks would compete. And, as I said earlier, the days when private banknotes truly "competed" with each other was a disaster, because the receiver of such a banknote had no way of knowing its true worth. National Bank Notes, or National Currency, were issued only to exand the money supply, and had to be backed by certain deposited assets (much like I would imagine Scottish banks doing so today). When the enabling legislation expired, it was not renewed because NC was no longer required, since FRNs fulfilled their function.

Think also of this: considering the various bank shenanigans and banking scandals of the past 30+ years, would you EVER want ANY private bank issuing currency for our use?

[fortinbras]

To a certain extent there was a "competition" among the US currencies that led to the 1933 decision to go off the gold standard.

It was the plague of "gold clauses" in contracts of various sorts. It practically became boiler plate that business contracts had clauses that specified that payments must be made in gold coin. The effect was that presenting the money in any other form, such as Silver Certificates, US Notes, even Gold Certificates, was not legally satisfactory and it became necessary to acquire gold coins to meet the terms of the contract. This caused gold coins to become artificially more valuable than their face value; exchanging any other sort of money to obtain gold coins required an additionally amount of money which essentially paid a rental on using the gold coins. The ubiquity of the gold clauses was such that, if all the contracts were payable on the same day, there would be nowhere near enough US gold coins in circulation to do the job. Additionally, the extra viggorish to "rent" gold coins conflicted with Congress's Constitutional authority to set the value of US money.

The only Constitutional way to change the terms of all those contracts was a finding that this practice (of gold clauses) was "against public policy", which is what Congress did in June 1933 (the notorious House Joint Resolution 192); at the same time stating that all the forms of US currency were interchangeable at face value. Shortly thereafter Congress passed another law declaring all forms of US currency to be legal tender, a quality that previously had been held by only some currency forms but not others.

[Pottapaug1938]

Adding to the problem of an undersupply of readily available gold coinage was the fact that a lot of gold was held in bullion form, which made it unsuitable for use in all but the largest commercial transactions.

Interestingly, much of the gold coinage that was produced never circulated, at least in the East. Gold Certificates were issued so that the coins could be "used" in commerce without losing any of their weight, since for example a $5 gold coin held $5 worth of gold in it and a worn coin thus had less intrinsic value. This is one reason why so many high-grade U.S. gold coins exist today (another reason is that many were held, as bullion, in overseas banks after they could no longer be used as money).

[Brandybuck]

The "competing currencies" in the United States were gold certificates, silver certificates, United States Notes, FRNs, and National Currency.

Nope, you also had private banks issuing their own notes. It was common, not an aberration.

Here are two images I found with a quickie google:

http://www.frbsf.org/currency/expansion ... /s42fr.jpg
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/scripoph ... anavig.jpg

[Pottapaug1938]

The "competing currencies" in the United States were gold certificates, silver certificates, United States Notes, FRNs, and National Currency.

Nope, you also had private banks issuing their own notes. It was common, not an aberration.

Here are two images I found with a quickie google:

http://www.frbsf.org/currency/expansion ... /s42fr.jpg
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/scripoph ... anavig.jpg

I'm still right. The first note you offer is dated 1862, and the other is from 1857. the National Banking Act made the issuance of these notes illegal, except under strict new rules (remember my comments about National Currency). Before then, notes like these WERE common; but after the Act, they all vanished. That's why they are generically referred to as "Broken Bank Notes".

[Brandybuck]

Before then, notes like these WERE common

Ummm... yes. Which was my point.

[Pottapaug1938]

Before then, notes like these WERE common

Ummm... yes. Which was my point.

But, you completely missed mine, which was that these notes were almost completely useless as a parallel currency, which is why they were outlawed.

[Kestrel]

And you've completely ignored one of the gorillas in the room: Just what, exactly, is supposed to "back" these alternative currencies anyway? Paul wants to return to the gold standard. Will gold back these alternative currencies? If so, how is anyone going to get their hands on enough gold to back a viable currency issue? If you're suggesting that the net worth of a corporation would back such a currency, well we already have that in place. Those "notes" are called stock certificates.

Second, have you ever seen the high-tech quality control that goes into producing US paper currency? You'd have an unacceptably high counterfeiting risk on the alternative currencies both because the cost of quality control is prohibitive, and because the notes would be unfamiliar to most people.

Face it. People who work as dollar-above-minimum-wage cashiers are not the sharpest tacks in the box. I once saw a bartender accept a three-dollar bill adorned with Richard Nixon's face, and tell the customer that he still owed her another dollar because drinks were $4.

Please don't suggest that the alternative currencies will be gold and silver coins instead of paper bills. One of the reasons gold coins were replaced with demand notes is that coins can be shaven, and then they're not worth face value anymore. It's also easy to counterfeit unusual coins, because folks aren't familiar with how they're supposed to look. This was a problem back in the days when Jesus threw the moneychangers out of the temple, and it's still a problem. Before "alternative currency" gold and silver coins would be trusted by ordinary merchants, you'd have to set up a whole industry of folks weighing and testing such coins to ensure they were both genuine and still had the correct weight.

Bottom line: alternative currencies from private sources are a non-player. Sorry.

[Pottapaug1938]

To add what Kestrel said: there are a few broken bank notes which were "issued" by nonexistent banks. The con men who passed them relied on the fact that many people were unfamiliar with most of the notes passing through their hands, and couldn't distinguish the fantasies from the real thing.

Don't forget, also, the "chopmarked" coins of China. Merchants were known to test the purity of coins they received, and stamp the coin with their "chop" or metal stamp if the coin passed muster. Soon, the coins were heavily defaced and often tended to form dish or cup shapes. Who would want to deal with that kind of nightmare today, especially since the art of counterfeiting has vastly improved since then and since even experts have trouble identifying counterfeits or short-weight coins?

[Lambkin]

Thankfully this is a problem we won't have to face. The idea is just fodder for Internet forum debaters & dreamers.

[grixit]

Personally i really like the current gold dollar coins. I just think they should be a little larger and maybe have slightly concave faces so they'll ring.

As for the Liberty Dollars, i'm amazed that the "sorry you lost money, now send me some more" still go on month after month without provoking a revolt.

[notorial dissent]

Just goes to show that von Nutbert knew his market, and they keep proving it, and still haven't figured it out yet, and will probably keep right on proving it. This makes how many times now he has taken them and they are still lining up, well maybe not so much anymore, to hand him their money???

[Pottapaug1938]

Personally i really like the current gold dollar coins. I just think they should be a little larger and maybe have slightly concave faces so they'll ring.

As for the Liberty Dollars, i'm amazed that the "sorry you lost money, now send me some more" still go on month after month without provoking a revolt.

I like the Sacagawea dollars; but the Presidential dollars remind me of those tokens that you used to get at gas stations with every ten gallons of gasoline; and no matter how often you bought gas, you just could NEVER get the Benjamin Harrison token which would complete your set and win you a prize.

[JamesVincent]

Another Ron Paul speech. Not sure about the validity of the opinion rendered by the site but I think his speech says something.

[Randall]

To add what Kestrel said: there are a few broken bank notes which were "issued" by nonexistent banks. The con men who passed them relied on the fact that many people were unfamiliar with most of the notes passing through their hands, and couldn't distinguish the fantasies from the real thing.

Just look for the "redeemed for value" stamp. Those are the real things.

[Arthur Rubin]

To add what Kestrel said: there are a few broken bank notes which were "issued" by nonexistent banks. The con men who passed them relied on the fact that many people were unfamiliar with most of the notes passing through their hands, and couldn't distinguish the fantasies from the real thing.

Just look for the "redeemed for value" stamp. Those are the real things.

Keyboard warning!!!

[Dezcad]

Note what it says about Ron Paul - "Pending":

Friday Night Pending Keynote Speaker: Ron Paul (FREE event!)

"Pending" is now "Not Speaking" (surprise,not)

Friday Night: Ron Paul Organizational Event & Candidate Forum

Dr. Paul, unfortunately, will not be able to attend this year's Rally. Dr. Paul is working diligently to become our next President, but we will be holding a FREE event that will educate the public on how to effectively campaign for Dr. Paul. Learn how to register people to vote. Learn how to effectively communicate the messages of Dr. Paul, and learn what YOU can do to get Dr. Paul in the White House!

Freedom Law School will also host a Candidate Forum for Freedom Minded candidates to voice their message to the public. Come listen, and come learn at this FREE event!

[grixit]

Heh. It starts with the teaser that attendees will get to see Ron Paul live, maybe even meet him, and ends with an invitation to work for him for free.

[LPC]

Freedom Law School will also host a Candidate Forum for Freedom Minded candidates to voice their message to the public. Come listen, and come learn at this FREE event!

Really? Freedom Law School? That sleazebag is still in business?

I can't believe that there are morons delusional enough to still be buying his crap. I mean, he makes Schiff and Hendrickson look like classy and high-powered operations, even while they're in jail.