Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

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LPC
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Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by LPC »

searcher wrote:I have many more cases from many other states, but as I said, that one is "just for starters." [....]

Schecter v. Killingsworth, 380 P. 2d. 136, 140;
Let's take the first one, "for starters."

Full citation is Schecter v. Killingsworth, 93 Ariz. 273, 380 P.2d 136 (1963)

One of the plaintiffs was an uninsured (but licensed) driver who was in an accident, and sought a writ of prohibition to stop the enforcement of an Arizona statute, A.R.S. § 28-1142, that allowed the state to require that a bond be posted to pay any judgment that might arise out of the accident and, if the bond is not posted, the driver's license is suspended. (The other plaintiff was the owner of the uninsured vehicle, who had to post bond or have the vehicle registration suspended.)

The Supreme Court of Arizona rejected several challenges to the law, upheld the constitutionality of the law, and denied the writ of prohibition.

In other words, "searcher" loses.
Dan Evans
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(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
searcher

Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by searcher »

The Observer,
Re: Your comment, >I wish to commend you on your deep insight and honesty in recognizing this about your posts.

I would never insult you by saying you are The Observer "for nothing." That would be very cruel. I will tell you this; when I make mistakes, it seems most of them are BIG TIME mistakes. :|
searcher

Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by searcher »

by LPC » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:09 pm

I said earlier to The Observer, when I make mistakes, I do so, BIG TIME. The mistake I made was having cases that said one thing mixed in with cases that said the opposite & sent some in by a BIG TIME GOOF. The following case was the first case I mentioned, & it says, in pertinent part: "The use of the Public streets IS NOT a privilege, BUT A RIGHT. It is a RIGHT or LIBERTY, the enjoyment of which is PROTECTED by the guarantees of the federal and state constitutions. A license, therefore, implying a privilege cannot possibly exist with reference to something which is a right, free and open to all, AS IS the RIGHT of the citizen to ride and drive over the streets of the city without charge and without toll, provided he does so in a reasonable manner.” City of Chicago v. Collins 175 ILL. 445, Pgs. 456, 457.

Cate v. State, 3 Sneed, 120; Anything which cannot be enjoyed without legal authority would be a mere privilege, which is generally evidenced by a license. in The Legal Adviser: Monthly Law and Business Magazine and 2 similar citations
searcher

Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by searcher »

Re: LPC » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:09 pm
P.S. I wanted to send cases like the first two, & then send the ones you & yours like to throw back at me, but, I asked for it by my stupidity. You did the right thing. However here is another excerpt, I meant to send AFTER the Chicago v. Collins case.
"It is settled that the streets of a city belong to the people of a state and the use thereof is an UNalienable right of every citizen of the state.” Whyte v. City of Sacramento, 165 Cal. App.534, 540.
How can it be an unalienable right,& a license is required to exercise this "so called" "unalienable right?" You think a license is proof of competency? I betcha there are more drunk drivers (which I abhor) & more drivers who cause accidents, who are licensed, than unlicensed. :lol:
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Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

Searcher: you continue to be unable to understand court cases. You may have an unalienable right to travel on public streets; but in order to travel in them using a dangerous object like a motor vehicle, you must be licenses and your vehicle must be registered (and, in many states, insured and periodically inspected).

To put it another way: I am free to walk down my street, or ride a bicycle down it, without interference from the police. However, if I drive my car down the street, and I do not have a valid driver's license, a valid registration for my car, a valid inspection sticker, and insurance for my car, the police are well within their rights if they stop me for violating the laws regarding each of these.

You're mining quotes again.
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Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by LPC »

searcher wrote:The mistake I made was having cases that said one thing mixed in with cases that said the opposite & sent some in by a BIG TIME GOOF.
You're making progress if you recognize that there are cases that say the opposite of what you believe.

The next step is to recognize that the cases you think agree with what you believe are actually irrelevant.
searcher wrote:The following case was the first case I mentioned, & it says, in pertinent part: "The use of the Public streets IS NOT a privilege, BUT A RIGHT. It is a RIGHT or LIBERTY, the enjoyment of which is PROTECTED by the guarantees of the federal and state constitutions. A license, therefore, implying a privilege cannot possibly exist with reference to something which is a right, free and open to all, AS IS the RIGHT of the citizen to ride and drive over the streets of the city without charge and without toll, provided he does so in a reasonable manner.” City of Chicago v. Collins 175 ILL. 445, Pgs. 456, 457.
I can't get hold of a complete copy of the decision, so I don't know why the Illinois Supreme Court wrote those words (assuming it did write those words), but I can find later decisions by the same court that talk about the Collins decision and what it means (and doesn't mean):
From an analysis of the cases of City of Chicago v. Collins, 175 Ill. 445, and Harder's Storage Co. v. City of Chicago, 235 Ill. 58, it is further apparent that lawful conduct which had been regarded as a common right without previous legal authority could become a privilege by legislative action, and be exercised thereafter only upon payment of the tax.

In City of Chicago v. Collins, the court held that a city wheel tax ordinance was unconstitutional, and the use of the streets was a "right" and not a "privilege." The court stated: "A license, therefore, implying a privilege, cannot possibly exist with reference to something which is a right, free and open to all, as is the right of the citizen to ride and drive over the streets of the city without charge and without toll, provided he does so in a reasonable manner." In Harder's Storage Co. v. City of Chicago, however, the court redefined the "use of the streets," as a "privilege" on the ground that the legislature had acted on the subject by authorizing municipalities to exact a tax for the use of the streets. It was urged therein, on the basis of the Collins case, that the use of the streets was a right rather than a taxable privilege, hence, a statute empowering the municipality to exact a fee for revenue purposes was unconstitutional. This contention was similar to that urged by plaintiff herein with reference to the use of cigarettes. The court rejected that argument and distinguished the Collins case on the ground that it was decided before there was a statute authorizing the city to impose the license tax. The court stated: "the use of the streets was a common right, which was free and open to all without charge and without toll, and upon this right the city had no power to impose a license tax; but by the enactment of clause 96 [of the Cities and Villages Act,] the use of the public streets, which before its enactment was a common right, became, by virtue of the legislative act, a privilege, and subject to a license tax * * *." In reinterpreting the concept of privilege as applied in the Collins case, the court further stated: "Clearly, therefore, the court, in the Collins case, did not mean to say that nothing can be subject to license if it be lawful to do the thing without legal authority. There are a great many things which had been done or enjoyed as a matter of right, and which later, by legislative act, were properly made the subject of license taxation." (Emphasis added.)
Johnson v. Halpin, 413 Ill. 257, 267-268, 108 NE 2d 429 (1952) (Illinois Cigarette Use Tax held constitutional; bolding added but italics in original).

Also:
In the case of City of Chicago v. Collins, 175 Ill. 445, an attempt was made to exact a wheel tax on all vehicles using the streets. In each of the foregoing cases the ordinance was held void. Language in those decisions when taken out of context may seem to support plaintiff's position, but the rationale of the holdings is that there was an unreasonable exercise of regulatory power under the circumstances there prevailing.
Chicago Nat. Bank v. City of Chicago Heights, 14 Ill.2d 135, 140-141, 150 NE 2d 827 (1958) (Chicago ordinance closing a part of a street is a valid regulation; bolding added).

The Collins case was decided in 1898, when there were few automobiles on the streets of Chicago. As circumstances changed, the courts recognized that constitutional regulatory powers also changed.

In other words, cases decided in the horse-and-buggy days that refer to a "right to travel" are not necessarily going to be applied to automobiles driven at 65 miles per hour on busy highways.
Dan Evans
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(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
searcher

Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by searcher »

Pott...
@ > using a dangerous object like a motor vehicle, ...
It is not the thing,e.g., motor vehicle, that is dangerous, it is the "abusive use" of the thing. AND this goes for ANYTHING. The way you think, you will agree that when we use a knife & fork to eat a meal, we are using dangerous objects. It is not the the knife & fork that is dangerous, it is those flesh & blood beings who MISUSE the knife & fork. IT IS THE HUMAN WHO IS DANGEROUS. I think you went to LEGAL SCHOOL, not LAW SCHOOL. What an idiotic statement, & Gregg says I have a little mind. Well,yes, but there are degrees, etc., of little too !!!
:beatinghorse:
searcher

Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by searcher »

POTT !!!
Re: > However, if I drive my car down the street, and I do not have a valid driver's license, a valid registration for my car, a valid inspection sticker, and insurance for my car, the police are well within their rights if they stop me for violating the laws regarding each of these.
@ well within their rights?? Well then there are those who have rights. I know you did not give them the privilege to stop you
@if they stop me for violating the laws regarding each of these???

HOW does the police KNOW you do not have a valid driver license,etc.? Do they stop you because,NOW, Probable Cause means probably cause they wanted too?

Cate v. State, 3 Sneed, 120; Anything which cannot be enjoyed without legal authority would be a mere privilege, which is generally evidenced by a license. ( in The Legal Adviser: Monthly Law and Business Magazine and 2 similar citations).

"It is settled that the streets of a city belong to the people of a state and the use thereof is an UNalienable right of every citizen of the state.” Whyte v. City of Sacramento, 165 Cal. App.534, 540.

The use of the Public streets IS NOT a privilege, BUT A RIGHT. It is a RIGHT or LIBERTY, the enjoyment of which is PROTECTED by the guarantees of the federal and state constitutions. A license, therefore, implying a privilege cannot possibly exist with reference to something which is a right, free and open to all, AS IS the RIGHT of the citizen to ride and drive over the streets of the city without charge and without toll, provided he does so in a reasonable manner.” City of Chicago v. Collins 175 ILL. 445, Pgs. 456, 457.

Cate v. State, 3 Sneed, 120; Anything which cannot be enjoyed without legal authority would be a mere privilege, which is generally evidenced by a license.

Per Cate, then you are admitting you only have a "mere privilege" & NOT a RIGHT.
:beatinghorse: :beatinghorse: :beatinghorse: :beatinghorse: :beatinghorse: :beatinghorse:
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Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

searcher wrote:Pott...
@ > using a dangerous object like a motor vehicle, ...
It is not the thing,e.g., motor vehicle, that is dangerous, it is the "abusive use" of the thing. AND this goes for ANYTHING. The way you think, you will agree that when we use a knife & fork to eat a meal, we are using dangerous objects. It is not the the knife & fork that is dangerous, it is those flesh & blood beings who MISUSE the knife & fork. IT IS THE HUMAN WHO IS DANGEROUS. I think you went to LEGAL SCHOOL, not LAW SCHOOL. What an idiotic statement, & Gregg says I have a little mind. Well,yes, but there are degrees, etc., of little too !!!
:beatinghorse:
Okay, searcher. If I walk onto a highway with a knife and fork, without knowing how to use them, without any liability insurance for them, and also very intoxicated, the only damage I am likely to cause is to myself, and possibly to whatever hits me. However, if I drive onto that same highway in an uninsured car which I do not know how to drive, and I am also very intoxicated. the toll in damage and lives can be considerable. To simplify all this for you, a motor vehicle is much more dangerous than a knife and fork.

I think that the bottom line is that you broke a law and were caught; and rather than facing up to that fact you are desperately casting about for something -- anything -- which will excuse your conduct. You have yet to show us a single holding in a single case to support your fantasies; instead, you offer us quote-mining from irrelevant cases, and twisted definitions, even after being shown that your cases have no relevance to your point.

As for the "privilege" of being stopped? Anyone who operates a motor vehicle grants the police that power simply by that fact; and if a police officer sees someone exceeding the speed limit, driving with no license plate, driving with an expired inspection sticker, driving with unsafe equipment, driving with an expired registration (outdated sticker), that gives them probable cause to stop you.

I'm sure that the folks on Saving to Suitors will find your stories quite entertaining; but here, they just won't work.
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searcher

Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by searcher »

LPC, >You're making progress if you recognize that there are cases that say the opposite of what you believe.
What I believe ??? I am not those courts OR those cases. I am simply trying to show you the cases contradict each other. One case says it is an absolute right & NOT a privilege, & another says it is a privilege & not a right of ANY KIND. You no doubt understand ALL the cases that say it is a privilege, but you cannot understand the cases that say it IS NOT a privilege. I believe this is why at times we have 5 2 4 Supreme Cout decisions. Why don't you contact the Supreme Court & advise the dissenters why & how they are wrong?? In the event you think I am stupid enough to tell the police or magistrate or any judge that I don't need to have a driver license, etc., because I have the absolute right to drive, believe it or not,I am not"that dense." If I did that, I guarantee you, I will be forced into a competency hearing & I KNOW the end result of that also.The Collins Court, If alive, would be forced into a competency hearing too,If they still said what they did previously, I think.

:beatinghorse: :beatinghorse: :beatinghorse: :beatinghorse: :beatinghorse: :beatinghorse:
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Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

searcher wrote:LPC, >You're making progress if you recognize that there are cases that say the opposite of what you believe.
What I believe ??? I am not those courts OR those cases. I am simply trying to show you the cases contradict each other. One case says it is an absolute right & NOT a privilege, & another says it is a privilege & not a right of ANY KIND. You no doubt understand ALL the cases that say it is a privilege, but you cannot understand the cases that say it IS NOT a privilege. I believe this is why at times we have 5 2 4 Supreme Cout decisions. Why don't you contact the Supreme Court & advise the dissenters why & how they are wrong?? In the event you think I am stupid enough to tell the police or magistrate or any judge that I don't need to have a driver license, etc., because I have the absolute right to drive, believe it or not,I am not"that dense." If I did that, I guarantee you, I will be forced into a competency hearing & I KNOW the end result of that also.The Collins Court, If alive, would be forced into a competency hearing too,If they still said what they did previously, I think.
You are showing NOTHING except your own inability to understand case law. You are extracting quotes from cases and deciding that they are as valid as anything else in the case, quite ignoring the fact that your quotes are merely explanation for the holdings in the case, which you ignore -- quite willfully, I suspect, because you find them unsupportive of your position. The rest of us, on the other hand, pay attention to the holdings because they, like the rest of the common law, are authoritative on a given point, within their jurisdiction, until and unless they are overturned later on by the courts or by the legislature.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture." -- Pastor Ray Mummert, Dover, PA, during an attempt to introduce creationism -- er, "intelligent design", into the Dover Public Schools
searcher

Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by searcher »

POTT....
I forgot to say, I do not drive a Motor Vechicle.I "travel" in a "Road Machine." It does not have a motor, it has an engine. Now for some good news. I am going to put up a BIG sign outside that says: This home is GUN FREE. No GUNS are in this house. I am hoping to be a good example for my neighbors to follow. ALSO, I am going to put a sign on my "Road Machine" that says" Beware of this machine !!! IT IS DANGEROUS !! I already have a warning sign up/out about my dog. I reconsidered my position about your understanding of a motor veicle being dangerous. I thought well, if it's dangerous, my road machine is too.Coming around, RIGHT ??? Of course. Here is a case you will like.> In 1999, the 9th Circuit of the U.S. Court of Appeals, in the case of Donald S. Miller v. the California Department of Motor Vehicles, ruled that there simply is no “fundamental right" to drive. He did not mean golf balls either. Here is another strange worded case even tho we both KNOW it must be, it has to be dicta.

“At Common Law there is no precise limit of speed. A traveler by automobile must adopt a reasonable speed.” Gallagher v. Montplier, 52 ALR 744; 5 Am Jur. page 645.

[ Note: The Gallagher court does not say a “driver of a Motor Vehicle,” but, a “traveler by automobile.”] :lol:
:)
searcher

Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by searcher »

Gosh, I hate to say this, because I know you're going to be disappointed, but I'm going to be away for a while, & won't be able to respond. NOW HOLD IT !!! don't start whining and bellerin like a dying calf in a hail storm !! I did not say I'll be gone for a whole day. You are going to have to learn to be patient. I promise I will be back, later. Don't want any of you to think you hit me with a "gotcha," either :D
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Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by Famspear »

searcher wrote:POTT....
I forgot to say, I do not drive a Motor Vechicle.I "travel" in a "Road Machine." It does not have a motor, it has an engine. Now for some good news. I am going to put up a BIG sign outside that says: This home is GUN FREE. No GUNS are in this house. I am hoping to be a good example for my neighbors to follow. ALSO, I am going to put a sign on my "Road Machine" that says" Beware of this machine !!! IT IS DANGEROUS !! I already have a warning sign up/out about my dog. I reconsidered my position about your understanding of a motor veicle being dangerous. I thought well, if it's dangerous, my road machine is too.Coming around, RIGHT ??? Of course. Here is a case you will like.> In 1999, the 9th Circuit of the U.S. Court of Appeals, in the case of Donald S. Miller v. the California Department of Motor Vehicles, ruled that there simply is no “fundamental right" to drive. He did not mean golf balls either. Here is another strange worded case even tho we both KNOW it must be, it has to be dicta.

“At Common Law there is no precise limit of speed. A traveler by automobile must adopt a reasonable speed.” Gallagher v. Montplier, 52 ALR 744; 5 Am Jur. page 645.

[ Note: The Gallagher court does not say a “driver of a Motor Vehicle,” but, a “traveler by automobile.”] :lol:
:)
I am not seeing much in the way of coherent thought patterns in your posts, "searcher". Maybe it's best that you do take a break for a while.

:|
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Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by wserra »

searcher wrote:"The use of the Public streets IS NOT a privilege, BUT A RIGHT. It is a RIGHT or LIBERTY, the enjoyment of which is PROTECTED by the guarantees of the federal and state constitutions. A license, therefore, implying a privilege cannot possibly exist with reference to something which is a right, free and open to all, AS IS the RIGHT of the citizen to ride and drive over the streets of the city without charge and without toll, provided he does so in a reasonable manner.” City of Chicago v. Collins 175 ILL. 445, Pgs. 456, 457.
Some of that "quote" actually appears in the Collins opinion, some is just made up. For example, the word "liberty" (or "LIBERTY") does not appear in it. Neither does the word "constitution". Moreover, the holding is simple: the City of Chicago did not have the power to enact the ordinance in question, because the Illinois legislature never granted it:
In this case there is no express power given the city council to impose this license fee, and no implied power arises which gives the right. It has no power to levy a tax in this manner. In any view of the case, the city had no power to adopt this ordinance
Not only did "searcher" make up language, he made up that it was a constitutional decision. "The Collins Court, If alive, would be forced into a competency hearing too"? No, searcher, the Court's fine; the competency hearing would be yours alone.
searcher wrote:However here is another excerpt, I meant to send AFTER the Chicago v. Collins case.
"It is settled that the streets of a city belong to the people of a state and the use thereof is an UNalienable right of every citizen of the state.” Whyte v. City of Sacramento, 165 Cal. App.534, 540.
Man, "excerpt" is a good word for that. Would you be interested in seeing the rest of that very sentence? You placed a period after "state", where the court used a comma. In its entirety:
It is settled that the streets of a city belong to the people of a state and the use thereof is an inalienable right of every citizen of the state, subject to legislative control or such reasonable regulations as to the traffic thereon or the manner of using them as the legislature of the state may deem wise or proper to adopt and impose.
What, pray tell, do you believe a licensing requirement to be, other than "reasonable regulations as to the traffic thereon or the manner of using them"? Oh, and the cite isn't 165 Cal. App.534, it's 65 Cal. App. 534. Couldn't be that you wanted to hide the lie, could it?

I've had it with this guy. It's not getting rid of someone you disagree with. It's getting rid of someone who is at best persistently, irremediably lazy and at worst a goddam liar.
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Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by Famspear »

Now, here is the "Miller" case to which "searcher" made reference:

Miller v. Reed, 176 F.3d 1202 (9th Cir. 1999), at:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case? ... 65&scilh=0

This is a case in which the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit rejected Miller's argument that the State of California had unconstitutionally impeded Miller's right to interstate travel by refusing to allow him to renew his driver's license when he refused to provide his social security number (because he believed that revealing his social security number was tantamount to a sin).

The Court also ruled that Miller's free exercise of religion was not violated by California's neutral requirement that all applicants for a new or renewed driver's license provide a social security number.

Whoop-tee-doo!

:roll:

EDIT: I'm thinking that this case rings a bell for me somewhere back there in my memory banks; I'm not sure.

The Court noted that the plaintiff in this case, Donald S. Miller:
.....has refused to provide his social security number in many contexts over several decades, including his application to the State Bar of California to practice law and his applications for practice before this court and the United States Supreme Court.
Duhhhhhhhhh........

:brickwall:
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searcher

Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by searcher »

Pottapaug, @ Okay, searcher. If I walk onto a highway with a knife and fork, without knowing how to use them, .....
ONLY an INSANE person would attempt to do that OR drive,use,operate or whatever you want to call it,a motor vehicle without knowing HOW to use, operate,one. What does an insane person care about a driver license? I had a chauffeur license at one time & this license authorized me to operate an 18 wheeler. Did I ever use it for that purpose?? NO WAY !! WHY? I did not know the first thing about about knowing how to drive, operate an 18 wheeler. I did use it to operate "taxi cab." I KNEW how to do that. I really enjoyed that job.
searcher

Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by searcher »

Re: inalienable right,
Some courts say Unalienable, NOT, Inalienable. Why change ONE letter IF there is no difference in the meaning? Here's why? See, the U is twice as big as the I, & the change was made ONLY to save ink & printing costs in Government paperwork, e.g.. Court decisions. :lol:
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Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

“At Common Law there is no precise limit of speed. A traveler by automobile must adopt a reasonable speed.” Gallagher v. Montplier, 52 ALR 744; 5 Am Jur. page 645."

Of course, common law may be modified, and sometimes totally replaced, by a legislative enactment. This case is so old, and so many cases dealing with excessive speed have reached so many courts in the years since then, that if this case still had any legal validity, there would be a much more recent citation to it.
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Re: Is "searcher" a "Subject"?

Post by webhick »

searcher, fabricating quotes is unacceptable. This is your last warning: Play nice and debate properly or go away. If you continue to behave the way you have been, we're going to have to ban you.
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