Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by Hanslune »

The Observer wrote:
...[T]hey believe in the Federal Government," (defense lawyer Mike) Arnold says
Uh, there was a video from Cliven Bundy two years ago where he said he did not believe that the federal government existed. Is that video still available?

Couldn't find a video but there is this discussion of that statement here:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... nd/360587/
His personal grievance with federal authority doesn't stop with the BLM, though. "I believe this is a sovereign state of Nevada," Bundy said in a radio interview last Thursday. "I abide by all of Nevada state laws. But I don’t recognize the United States government as even existing." Ironically, this position directly contradicts Article 1, Section 2 of the Nevada Constitution:
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by notorial dissent »

I'll go you one better, part in parcel with their claim about the Supreme Court case is their belief that Marbury vs Madison was decided wrongly. If you're really interested Krisanne Hall will be happy to give you lectures on it.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by noblepa »

notorial dissent wrote:I'll go you one better, part in parcel with their claim about the Supreme Court case is their belief that Marbury vs Madison was decided wrongly. If you're really interested Krisanne Hall will be happy to give you lectures on it.
It always amazes me, although it shouldn't, that these morons, some of whom are actually licensed lawyers, don't seem to realize that, even if the SCOTUS decides a case "wrongly", it makes not difference. The ruling is still the law of the land. In our system, SCOTUS is, in some ways, the definition of right, in terms of the law. You can have a different opinion and believe that the court goofed, but your opinion is not what counts.

Now, if one ardently believes that SCOTUS got it wrong, there are means of changing their ruling. One can work for a constitutional amendment. One can bring another similar case, usually after a change in the court's makeup. While rare, SCOTUS has occasionally revisted a previously decided issue and reversed itself. Sometimes, SCOTUS objection to a law is based on one part of the law and not the whole thing. A new law can be passed that addresses the court's issue. An example of the latter would be the "Stolen Valor Act". The original act was struck down as an impermissable infringement on the individual's 1st Amendment right to free speech. Congress then passed a new version that made it a crime to falsely claim military honors, for profit.

Personally, I think that SCOTUS decided "Citizens United" wrongly. Not the "Corporations are People", but the part where they said that no limits could be placed on corporations political donations.

I also believe that SCOTUS overstepped their authority in the recent case that struck down part of the Voting Rights Act. Even though they had upheld the act a few years previously, they ruled that federal oversight of state's drawing of congressional districts was no longer necessary. In my opinion, SCOTUS can rule that Congress overstepped their authority in making a law, or that the law is anathema to the constitution. Deciding that a law is unneccessary is, to me, a policy decision. Just because a law is unnecessary, it is not unconstitutional. It is up to congress to decide what policies are necessary. It is up to SCOTUS to decide which policies are lawful or constitutional.

Nonetheless, I accept the fact that both these decisions are now the law of the land. Unless and until congress does something to change that, the issue is settled.

I just finished reading one of the Federalist Papers, in which the argument for Judicial review was made. Very interesting. I don't see how our system could function and remain as close to the founders' intent as it has, without judicial review. Without that threat, I don't believe that Congress would be able to refrain from passing all kinds of laws that pander to the political winds of the moment, without regard to their constitutionality.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by ArthurWankspittle »

noblepa wrote:It always amazes me, although it shouldn't, that these morons, some of whom are actually licensed lawyers, don't seem to realize that, even if the SCOTUS decides a case "wrongly", it makes not difference. The ruling is still the law of the land. In our system, SCOTUS is, in some ways, the definition of right, in terms of the law. You can have a different opinion and believe that the court goofed, but your opinion is not what counts.
There was an exchange which summarised this between a judge and a plaintiff in England.
Judge: What do hope to get out of this?
Plaintiff: Justice
Judge: I can't promise that, I can only give a decision based on the current laws
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by notorial dissent »

As far as some people and lawyers are concerned, Supreme Court decisions are only acceptable so long as you agree with them.

The thing is, that in some cases, if they actually got the justice they deserved, they really wouldn't like it. Sometimes laws are a good thing, they keep you form getting horsewhipped as you so richly deserve.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

ArthurWankspittle wrote:
noblepa wrote:It always amazes me, although it shouldn't, that these morons, some of whom are actually licensed lawyers, don't seem to realize that, even if the SCOTUS decides a case "wrongly", it makes not difference. The ruling is still the law of the land. In our system, SCOTUS is, in some ways, the definition of right, in terms of the law. You can have a different opinion and believe that the court goofed, but your opinion is not what counts.
There was an exchange which summarised this between a judge and a plaintiff in England.
Judge: What do hope to get out of this?
Plaintiff: Justice
Judge: I can't promise that, I can only give a decision based on the current laws
There's a similar joke in the US:

Client, on the phone to his lawyer; "How did the decision go?"

Lawyer: "Justice has prevailed!"

Client: "Appeal at once!"
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by Dr. Caligari »

Judge: What do hope to get out of this?
Plaintiff: Justice
Judge: I can't promise that, I can only give a decision based on the current laws
The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit has a staff lawyer whose job is to mediate cases on appeal to try to settle them before the Court has to decide the appeal. The staff lawyer who once held that position (since retired) used to have a brass plaque on his desk that said, "In heaven you get justice. In this world, you get the law."
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by Arthur Rubin »

noblepa wrote:I also believe that SCOTUS overstepped their authority in the recent case that struck down part of the Voting Rights Act. Even though they had upheld the act a few years previously, they ruled that federal oversight of state's drawing of congressional districts was no longer necessary. In my opinion, SCOTUS can rule that Congress overstepped their authority in making a law, or that the law is anathema to the constitution. Deciding that a law is unneccessary is, to me, a policy decision. Just because a law is unnecessary, it is not unconstitutional.
I didn't read that decision, but if a law is unnecessary and impinges on a constitutional right, it is unconstitutional, not being the "minimal necessary action". Otherwise, a law being "unnecessary" does not seem grounds to overturn it.

But we're straying from the purpose of this forum.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by rogfulton »

This just in, 'dozens' (at least by journalist math) protest treatment of the Branch Dildonians.
http://www.kptv.com/story/31857130/doze ... -followers

In related news, Oregon sheriff who met with refuge occupiers plans to sue city.
http://www.kptv.com/story/31705664/oreg ... o-sue-city

Edited, because for some reason, I couldn't get the embedded URL tag to work. Is that a known issue with Win10?
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by rogfulton »

Papa Bundy's lawyer is attacting ethics complaints for trying to crowdsource his discovery process.
Article wrote:“The process is set up with really no consequences to frivolous complaints,” Arnold said.
Online article is at Oregon Public Broadcasting
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by Chaos »

rogfulton wrote:Papa Bundy's lawyer is attacting ethics complaints for trying to crowdsource his discovery process.
Article wrote:“The process is set up with really no consequences to frivolous complaints,” Arnold said.
Online article is at Oregon Public Broadcasting
that's Ammon's attorney.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by The Observer »

Oh brother, where did they dig up Mike Arnold?
They allege Eugene-based attorney Mike Arnold has asked people on Facebook to file public records requests with the Oregon State Police, the Bureau of Land Management and the FBI to “frivolously burden our Government [SIC] agencies.”
Right, because when you can't win based on the law, its time to fight with the friv. So please explain why you wasted all that time and money on law school?
In an interview Tuesday, Arnold said his firm set up a way to crowdsource research on the case and to “maximize the collective wisdom out there.”
Well, I'm sure that the crowdsourcing took all of two seconds before you maxed out the collective wisdom that is present in the sovrun community. And that includes the time you needed to set up the site in the first place.
Arnold said the research help he’s received from Bundy’s supporters has been “extremely beneficial.”
Riiiiiiggggghhhhht. Remember, these are the same people that egged Bundy on in the first place so that he ended up in the jail.
He also said filing a complaint takes nothing more than “a pulse and an Internet connection to do.”
Its a crying shame how the advance of technology seems to magnify stupidity rather than diminish it.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by notorial dissent »

Arnold seems to be crowdsourcing his funding and also attempting to come up with things for the defense that way, neither of which is going well, since the sovrunidjit well was pretty shallow and has now pretty much run dry. He seems to be mostly content with filing what will probably be considered frivolous motions and going through what money he has gotten from the foolish, which I suspect is nearly or long gone by now. The sovrunidjits and Ammon want him to go with a "the Fed can't own land" so you're not the boss of me defense, but I doubt if he wants to lose his license that badly to try that.

The hack who is pretending to be old man Bundy's lawyer tried to get Larry Klayman in PHV, and that was an epic fail, mostly on Klayman's doing since he can't seem to follow rules and directions to save himself, and there there are the little ethics quibbles that he tried to sweep under the carpet, and failed miserably at. The comedy continues.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by mpo »

The strangeness continues near the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. "Embedded reporter" Michael R. Emry was arrested for having an unregistered .50 caliber Browning M2 machine gun with an obliterated serial number in his RV. There are reports the agents also found explosives in the RV.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... ntent=link

His wife was in the RV at the time of the raid. She complained that the agents disrespected her husband's flyer for a COMMITTEE OF CORESPONDENSE (sic) was found crumpled up on the bathroom floor. Apparently the husband was trying to get a citizen committee to investigate the reporting of events in the area. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 9939053725

A copy of the arrest warrant and complaint.
http://www.flashalertnewswire.net/image ... 6_2016.pdf
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by Jeffrey »

Emry admitted that he took the M2 from the shop where he works in Idaho about a month and a half ago" the affidavit said. Emry took the gun without the shop owner's knowledge
That's a cute way of saying he stole it.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by grixit »

Yikes, an m2? what was he planning to do with it?
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by eric »

Although the weapon is missing a few significant parts to make it fully operational, it has the basics. Throw in a cocking handle, jury rig some sort of mount for it, and you could use it. Looks like one, by the appearance of the barrel, was pulled out of some sort of aircraft application.

Certainly the type of weapon that would scare the pants off any police officer having to face down someone who had it mounted in the back of their toyota. :naughty: That being said, I sincerely doubt that half these wannabe's have the knowledge or expertise to operate/maintain one properly or could afford the cost of the assorted small parts (M2's eat small parts and you can burn out a barrel in two belts) or the ammunition at $500 per box milsurp.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by notorial dissent »

He apparently makes claim to being a manufacturer, but isn't licensed.
What is clear is that he stole the gum, defaced the serial number, had it in his possession, and it was not licensed to him. All bad and wrong and going to cost him Federal time. He is a very very stupid man. Wifey or whatever is also several sandwiches short as well. Don't know about the explosives.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by JamesVincent »

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Post by The Observer »

I drove on the I-15 past Bunkerville, NV today. No wandering cattle in sight. But since the Bundys let the herd go where ever they want to, there was not much chance of any cows being seen. The drought continues to be a problem in the area and the local water source, the Virgin River, is very low and muddy.
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