Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:55 pm

notorial dissent wrote:Included is one unintentionally true, hilarious and factual document declaring officially to the court that he 'is an idiot and an incompetent..."


Fixed it for you...
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby notorial dissent » Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:36 pm

Agreed, if the whole situation weren't so very serious it would really be funny, but as it is, he's tossing his future away with both hands, not that I suspect he has much considering the charges, but still. H'es going full bore sovcit and and his brother is playing at it with his currentest collection of almost lawyers. The only real difference is in the legibility and better sentence structure of the filings, both are equally un-meritorious and ultimate fails. If anyone is interested, most of the current crop of comedy is available over at Fogbow on the Bundy Oregon forum. Keyboard warning engaged.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Tuba Cain » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:16 am

The Observer wrote:
I am not too impressed by the "sheriff-is-supreme" theory. After all, the Sheriff of Nottingham came off always looking like a weak idiot when running up against Robin Hood. So perhaps we should consider that Robin Hood is probably the ultimate sovrun citizen. Hopefully our sovruns out there will take up this new theory, put on their tights of Lincoln green, grab their yew bows and head to the nearest National Forest and set up shop.


Switch out the tights for militia fatigues, swap the yew bows for AR-15s, trade the National Forest for a wildlife preserve, and this is exactly what happened!

Sorry to drag up a quote from so far back in the thread; I'm reading it through and couldn't help but be struck by this. Edited to add bolding.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Judge Roy Bean » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:04 pm

Cliven Bundy's probably going to get a new attorney:

http://www.courthousenews.com/2016/09/29/cliven-bundys-attorney-asks-to-withdraw.htm

"I have health problems which will make it very difficult for me to withstand the rigors of a long jury trial of this case."


Not to mention having to deal with a ... well, never mind.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:35 am

Judge Roy Bean wrote:Not to mention having to deal with a ... well, never mind.


A two-legged hemorrhoid?
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby notorial dissent » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:26 am

Snork!! :snicker:
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:21 am

Get ready for things to get exciting around Bunkerville. President Obama set aside land near the Bundy ranch as a national mounment and the Bundians are not happy.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:31 pm

Cliven Bundy and his co-defendants' trial started yesterday. This will be interesting to see if prosecutors learned anything from the Malheur trial and avoid the pitfall of allowing the accused to come off as being persecuted by the government as well as keep the fake issue of public lands not belonging to the federal government out of the courtroom. All of this is critical since there are another 19 defendants from the Bunkerville standoff awaiting trial in the future for similar charges.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:49 pm

The other event this week is the preparation and jury selection for the second set of defendants facing misdemeanor charges in the Malheur standoff. Some of the statements made by dismissed potential jurors are quite interesting which would seem to suggest that, this time around, the defense may have a harder time getting acquittals.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:03 pm

This articlepoints out the defense team's claim of abuse of power by a BLM agent over the years in his supervision of BLM lands in Nevada and Utah. They are positing that this BLM agent was responsible for causing the Bunkerville standoff to escalate beyond the Bundy supporters' intent of a "peaceful protest."

Early in this thread, I had stated that it appeared that BLM had mismanaged the seizure of the cattle and this probably contributed to the standoff gaining steam. While this new claim appears to support my view, it does nothing to support the protesters using firearms as part of their protest despite their claim that they had no plan or intent to shoot at federal employees.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Chaos » Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:10 pm

The Observer wrote:This articlepoints out the defense team's claim of abuse of power by a BLM agent over the years in his supervision of BLM lands in Nevada and Utah. They are positing that this BLM agent was responsible for causing the Bunkerville standoff to escalate beyond the Bundy supporters' intent of a "peaceful protest."

Early in this thread, I had stated that it appeared that BLM had mismanaged the seizure of the cattle and this probably contributed to the standoff gaining steam. While this new claim appears to support my view, it does nothing to support the protesters using firearms as part of their protest despite their claim that they had no plan or intent to shoot at federal employees.


if the old man had paid his more than reasonable fees and not deliberately let his cattle roam on land they weren't suppose to be on as well as building structures on Federal land, I might agree but then none of this would have happen to begin with. these are kings of it's always someone elses fault.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:47 pm

Chaos wrote:if the old man had paid his more than reasonable fees and not deliberately let his cattle roam on land they weren't suppose to be on as well as building structures on Federal land, I might agree but then none of this would have happen to begin with. these are kings of it's always someone elses fault.


Regardless of whether Bundy should have not put cattle on the land, the government still has a duty to ensure that seizure or forfeiture actions that have to be taken are not made worse by incompetence or malfeasance on their part. I am not excusing any of the protestors regarding their behavior that day since they had choices as well in how to protest. But BLM could have approached this situation in a smarter way that would have ended with the removal of the cattle and left the Bundys looking stupid.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Jeffrey » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:13 pm

You mind clarifying your position there? The "abusive agent" the Bundy clan is complaining about used his power to get preferential treatment at a concert:
https://www.doioig.gov/reports/investig ... sory-agent

Nothing in that report could be construed as having any negative impact on ranchers or constituted an escalation.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby notorial dissent » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:05 am

While I agree pretty much in principal here, I thought at the time and still think that the fatal flaw of the Oregon trial was that they tried to push conspiracy charges, which are a hard sell at the best of times to an urban jury, to what was essentially a rural jury, when they should hvae been pushing hard palpable charges the jury could see and understand. I think conspiracy charges are really hard to sell to a jury at the best of times, and this bunch just wasn't really up to it. My impression was that the PD's were head and shoulders above the prosecution team on this one. I do think the judge needed to have kept a tighter leash on them and that part of the failure was hers. A lot of the stuff they kept wandering off to had nothing to do with the trial and should have been stopped before it got started. I will also say that I do think that part of the problem was where the trial was held, they just aren't used to dealing with that sort of thing. NV should be different considering the types of crimes that routinely come before the state and Federal courts there. Time will ultimately tell.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:09 am

Jeffrey wrote:You mind clarifying your position there? The "abusive agent" the Bundy clan is complaining about used his power to get preferential treatment at a concert:
https://www.doioig.gov/reports/investig ... sory-agent

Nothing in that report could be construed as having any negative impact on ranchers or constituted an escalation.


But defendants have long argued that Love is responsible for escalating the standoff. They say his actions were hyper-aggressive and made them fear for their safety. They argue Love has a long history of clashes with law-enforcement officials and ranchers in Utah.


That is what I am focusing on. If the claim is true that Love was clashing with other law-enforcement officials during the course of their duties or his, it shows that he had a problem with not being able to work well with others, regardless of their authority. Throwing into the mix the accusations that he was using his position to get special treatment for himself and others only seems to reinforce the image of a guy who let his badge go to his head.

You don't need that kind of person overseeing something as difficult and sensitive as a seizure or a forfeiture. These situations always present the problem of someone (usually the owner of the property) losing control and trying to take matters into their own hands. If I have the choice of being to able to take property in a quiet and sedate manner and the owner in a position to not respond, that is the plan I would be putting into effect. Putting one cowboy in charge of taking on another bunch of cowboys is only going to start a range war.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Jeffrey » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:16 pm

Other than the accusation by the farmers is there any actual evidence of escalation by that specific agent? Does it even make sense that one agent made all the decisions?

The way I remember events, it was the ranchers and Bundy that escalated first. BLM was enforcing a lawful court order, they're allowed to escalate in response to people attempting to block it. Bundy was trying to block the court order, he's not allowed to escalate. And the accusation of a "rogue agent" makes even less sense once you remember that the rogue agent presumably also called for withdrawing entirely and gave up on enforcing the court order. That defense makes no sense.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Hercule Parrot » Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:09 pm

Jeffrey wrote:You mind clarifying your position there? The "abusive agent" the Bundy clan is complaining about used his power to get preferential treatment at a concert:
https://www.doioig.gov/reports/investig ... sory-agent

Nothing in that report could be construed as having any negative impact on ranchers or constituted an escalation.

True, but it shows him to be an arrogant and reckless character
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:38 pm

Jeffrey wrote:Other than the accusation by the farmers is there any actual evidence of escalation by that specific agent? Does it even make sense that one agent made all the decisions?


If he was responsible for planning and leading the seizure, then it would make sense that he made the critical decisions and planning. Given the reporting in this article, it would appear that Love had some real problems in using his authority responsibly and correctly. If that is the case, then why should we not keep our minds open to the possibility that the same recklessness happened in the standoff in Bunkerville?

The way I remember events, it was the ranchers and Bundy that escalated first. BLM was enforcing a lawful court order, they're allowed to escalate in response to people attempting to block it. Bundy was trying to block the court order, he's not allowed to escalate. And the accusation of a "rogue agent" makes even less sense once you remember that the rogue agent presumably also called for withdrawing entirely and gave up on enforcing the court order. That defense makes no sense.


And you probably remember correctly, as that is how it was reported. But what we don't know is if BLM could have planned this whole situation so the protesters would be marginalized and muted. If Love left BLM open to a situation where the LEOs' lives were placed on the line unnecessarily, then it was a bad plan from the get go.

Again, I am not excusing the Bundys and their militant supporters. They need to face the music and do the time. But Love may have a lot to answer for as well if he was incompetent, reckless and indifferent to the legal requirements that went with his badge.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby AndyK » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:56 pm

It's important to remember that BLM staff are not trained law enforcement officers.

From day one, both the Bundy farm affair and the park occupation should have been turned over to the Marshals, ATF, and/or the FBI.

That might not have resolved the problems immediately, but it would have been better than what transpired.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:24 am

AndyK wrote:
It's important to remember that BLM staff are not trained law enforcement officers.


Except that Love is described as a special agent of BLM, and BLM job descriptions for special agents leave no doubt that Love was an LEO for BLM.

From day one, both the Bundy farm affair and the park occupation should have been turned over to the Marshals, ATF, and/or the FBI.

That might not have resolved the problems immediately, but it would have been better than what transpired.


And that is an excellent point. BLM should have recognized that this may have gone beyond their resources to handle and consulted with the sources you listed for assistance and involvement.
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