Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby ArthurWankspittle » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:49 pm

notorial dissent wrote: Can't feel the least bit of sympathy for Santilli, he's the worst kind of paytriot, the kind trying to get others hurt. He's a nasty bitter little man with an incredibly overblown ego, and calling him a journalist is an offense to real journalists. I don't suspect he will do too well in prison, he has a nasty mouth and a lot of attitude that will sit well with no one, on top of just being an all round poseur. He'll find out just how important he isn't in prison.
He's hoping not to be in prison though. His deal is for a guilty plea against time served. I am aware the judge can vary the sentence but how often does that happen and is it likely here?
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby notorial dissent » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:42 pm

Unfortunately probably true. We don't know how this judge is going to sentence yet, but I suspect he will get off lightly in comparison to what he should have gotten.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:26 pm

notorial dissent wrote:You forgot to mention that part of the reason for the delay is that cRyan finally had his wings clipped and isn't allowed to go pro se any more, judge finally had enough, and now he has a PD, and the PD wanted and needed prep time to get up to speed. Originally they were just going to delay his trial but then the shooting happened and one of the other defendants asked for a delay so they just pushed it all back to the end of the month.


I hadn't seen that development. When did the judge tell Payne he could no longer be pro se? Fortunate ruling for him, since it was his PD who made the argument for delaying the trial; I doubt that Payne would have even thought of that tactic. I really am not understanding Ryan Payne's strategy to go pro se, especially since he pleaded guilty to the charges arising out of the Malheur occupation.

There was also a motion to move the trial to Reno, but that got shot down as well.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby notorial dissent » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:29 am

The Observer wrote:
notorial dissent wrote:You forgot to mention that part of the reason for the delay is that cRyan finally had his wings clipped and isn't allowed to go pro se any more, judge finally had enough, and now he has a PD, and the PD wanted and needed prep time to get up to speed. Originally they were just going to delay his trial but then the shooting happened and one of the other defendants asked for a delay so they just pushed it all back to the end of the month.


I hadn't seen that development. When did the judge tell Payne he could no longer be pro se? Fortunate ruling for him, since it was his PD who made the argument for delaying the trial; I doubt that Payne would have even thought of that tactic. I really am not understanding Ryan Payne's strategy to go pro se, especially since he pleaded guilty to the charges arising out of the Malheur occupation.

There was also a motion to move the trial to Reno, but that got shot down as well.

cRyan Bundy. He, and/or his pretend attorney, acted out once too often and filed too much crap paperwork after they'd been told not to, so he got his privileges taken away. I do agree though that the PD may do him more good than he deserves, then again he's also an idiot and may just torpedo his own case.

There was a motion to move the trial, but it never got very far as I understand it and they just decided to postpone.

I'm sure there will be more entertainment forthcoming.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:02 pm

Ah, thus my confusion. I was only seeing articles referring to Ryan Payne and his PD.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Jeffrey » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:47 am

The Observer wrote:Peter Santilli ended up pleading guilty to a charge of conspiring to impede or injure a federal officer and will face up to 6 years in prison at his sentencing in January. He had blocked a number of BLM vehicles, causing the officers inside to leave the vehicles after an ugly crowd surrounded them and started making violent threats. No explanation as to why Pete decided to plead guilty...


Seems like you answered your own question there, hard for him to say he's not guilty when there's video of him physically impeding the BLM. But just to join in with the Santilli bashing, my bias against him started due to him being the one that initially spread all the pro-Bundy propaganda that was later determined to be bullshit, like the ranch being owned since the 1850's, etc. Part of me thinks he should get more time, part of me thinks time served is alright. The original "call to action" was definitely not peaceful and if it had turned violent, the blood would have been on his hands.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:31 am

Jeffrey wrote:Seems like you answered your own question there,...


I should have been clearer by stating that no explanation was offered by Santilli or his lawyer as to why he pleaded guilty.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby notorial dissent » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:03 am

First thing to remember, Santilli IS NOT A JOURNALIST, AGENT PROVOCATEUR almost certainly, but never ever ever a journalist. Whatever is going on, in the end it is always all about Pete. I think the primary thing to remember is that Santilli is first last and always a blowhard coward. As long as it is SOMEONE ELSE getting shot at or arrested he is all for it and backing them all the way. Pete glories in "helping" someone else get in to trouble but himself not so much. He finally really stepped over the line with the Bundy's and got himself snared in his fun. This is his way out and of saving as much of his hide as he can, as I really don't think he'd last five minutes in prison between the mouth and attitude he has. Doesn't play well with that demographic. As to Pete EVER telling the truth, I wouldn't hold my breath.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:22 am

The trial of the Bundys (Clive, Ammon, and Ryan) and their co-defendant Ryan Payne started today with jury selection. The judge in the trial, Gloria Navarro, warned prospective jurors that the trial could last until February, Thereafter, the voir dire started and the defense attorneys started asking members of the pool if they had been affected by the events of the Mandalay Bay shooting and if they could be impartial since the trial would center around the standoff participants carrying guns. By the time court recessed for the day practically half the pool had been eliminated.

Ryan, pushing ahead with representing himself, participated in grilling the prospective jurors himself, after convincing the judge that appearing in shackles during voir dire was potentially prejudicial. No idea if Ryan came up with that on his own, or if he got help from a public defender. He had to be stopped by the judge in informing the juror pool about the supposed suffering he is going through by being incarcerated. He also tried to whip up a little sympathy by talking about his facial paralysis due to a car accident in the past, and asked people if they would hold it against him, since he has no control over how his facial expressions.

All four defendants appeared in court in their red prison garb rather than wear civilian clothes. Apparently this was another tactic to demonstrate their unity, according to one defense lawyer.

Only a small crowd of supporters showed up, but this is before the trial actually starts so we will have to wait to see if the Bundys still maintain a large number of supporters or if the sovrun movement has moved on to the next person inspired to do stupid things to ruin their lives.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Jeffrey » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:08 am

https://twitter.com/maxoregonian/status ... 2285008898

Bit soon to start the negativity but this seems like a bad start to the whole thing. I like to think that these are fringe internet theories yet here we have a member of the jury pool repeating them.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:14 am

Jeffrey wrote:Bit soon to start the negativity...


Maybe not when you have state legislators pushing the Attorney General to drop prosecution for some of the defendants.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Jeffrey » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:06 pm

I feel like that’s been taken out of proportion. The letter only discusses defendants facing a third retrial. It’s a bit of a bad idea to let the government have infinite do-overs to put a citizen in jail. If they couldn’t convince two juries it reflects a weak case.

In the long term it’s probably better to pressure prosecutors to build stronger cases or stick to lesser charges that are easier to sell to a jury.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:36 pm

I don't know. While I agree that perpetual prosecution of a defendant may indicate problems with the prosecution's case, I am not seeing why a juror is not seeing the problem with the picture of the defendant aiming a weapon from an overpass. If jury nullification is a part and parcel of this situation, then I think the prosecution should get as many do-overs as they need.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Jeffrey » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:50 pm

I don’t think jury nullification was the issue with Parker. The prosecution wasn’t able to convince the jury that pointing a gun at BLM officers was assault (as absurd as that sounds) because they only became aware of the gun being pointed at them after it happened.

The one charge that I think was unambiguously jury nullification was the guy that stole the BLM truck.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Arthur Rubin » Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:42 am

Jeffrey wrote:I don’t think jury nullification was the issue with Parker. The prosecution wasn’t able to convince the jury that pointing a gun at BLM officers was assault (as absurd as that sounds) because they only became aware of the gun being pointed at them after it happened.
One thing I remember from my short stay in law school: "Attempted Battery" is not necessarily "Assault". Charge both.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby waylonmercy » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 pm

Bloomberg News is devoting significant time to Cliven Bundy case today. A Colorado law professor referred to Bundy as common criminal claiming to be anti-government freedom fighter.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Arthur Rubin » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:49 pm

waylonmercy wrote:Bloomberg News is devoting significant time to Cliven Bundy case today. A Colorado law professor referred to Bundy as common criminal claiming to be anti-government freedom fighter.
Now that's not fair. No common criminal would take over a national park. There's no money there....
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby waylonmercy » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:47 pm

Arthur Rubin wrote:
waylonmercy wrote:Bloomberg News is devoting significant time to Cliven Bundy case today. A Colorado law professor referred to Bundy as common criminal claiming to be anti-government freedom fighter.
Now that's not fair. No common criminal would take over a national park. There's no money there....

If Bundy would have let Bill Ferguson of the Moonbean Network worship him like a sovcit guru (see Heather Ann Tucci), I believe Ferguson would have gladly paid Cliven's grazing fees. A win-win situation for all!
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Jeffrey » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:05 pm

Most of the coverage seems to focus on some undisclosed surveillance cameras by the FBI. I can’t make sense of what it’s got to do with the standoff. Poots seem to think it’s a get out of jail free card, hopefully it’s not.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:38 am

Jeffrey wrote:Poots seem to think it’s a get out of jail free card, hopefully it’s not.


This is because the prosecution has been telling Judge Navarro that one camera that was set up for surveillance was never monitored while it was recording. This situation came about because the prosecutors never turned over the feed from this camera to the defense. Their explanation is that the feed recorded nothing due to some sort of malfunction, possibly due to it it being hit by a vehicle. Thus, in the prosecution's opinion, there was no evidence to turn over. Navarro did not buy that explanation, stating "Unless it was exculpatory."

Meanwhile, the defense made a not-unexpected request to release the defendants. In regards to Cliven, the defense was pointing that Cliven was having health problems and had lost several teeth due to infection since his arrival to prison. Navarro didn't buy the defense's explanation, at which point Shiree Cox (Bundy's daughter) yelled at the judge that she was "...an evil, cold-hearted woman." Court officers moved to take her out of the court, and she continued to scream and yell as she was moved out.

Ammon Bundy's request was the next to be dealt with, and it appeared that he might have had a chance to get home detention, despite the prosecution telling the court that he had 11 violations of prison rules during his detention. The prosecutor asked Ammon what he would do if he was on home release and found out that the government was going to remove the Bundy cattle from government lands. Ammon said that he would the same thing that he did before, and "peacefully assemble." He did say he would comply with any curfew rules that the court imposed; the judge delayed a ruling until Monday (11/13/17).

Ryan Bundy ended up striking out. He had been in a bad boy in detention as well, with 12 violations over the last 6 months. Though he claimed that the 10 hour trips from the Parumph jail where he is being held is causing him problems, the prosecution pointed out that it is Ryan's behavior that is causing the delays since now the prison staff have to do strip searches. Despite Ryan claiming he just wanted to be out so he could provide for his family, who have sold their home in Utah and moved to Mesquite, the judge was not buying any of it. His statement to a federal agent back in 2014 that he would do anything necessary to prevent his father's cattle being moved came up as well as his attempt to stop the cattle auction in Utah when he went there as well. Apparently this visit had convinced the local Utah sheriff to contact the Utah governor and ask him to intervene in preventing the cattle from being shipped there due to his fear that Ryan was going to incite or initiate violence at the auction. In the final calculation, Navarro found Ryan to be a potential danger to the community and she would not give him home detention.

Ryan Payne also lost a bid for release, given his connections to his militia network and his past statements and threats. Although his attorney tried to pass these off as merely just words and not the same as an imminent danger, Navarro classified his speech as a conduct problem, and not political rhetoric. And given the fact that Payne is still awaiting sentencing in Oregon for the Malheur takeover, the judge in that trial would probably have ordered Payne detained if Navarro had released him.
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