Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Jeffrey » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:58 am

I gotta admit, being a big softy, the appeals to emotion are kind of working on me. Burnaby talks a lot about the issues with trial delays in Canada, two years in jail pre-trial makes my spider sense tingle. I get the concern about Ammon getting armed militia to guard him again if released but surely they could just make it a condition of the release not to engage in that sort of nonsense. I’m torn about the whole thing, on the one hand it was armed insurrection, on the other hand it was a victimless crime probably because the Feds backed down.

My concern through all this is we may get another Oklahoma City lone wolf terrorist act as retaliation for the “unjust” incarceration of Ammon. Maybe some leniency with pre-trial release could calm tensions down. The hostility when you talk to poots online via twitter etc is very thick. Angry, unemployed men that hate the government and have tons of guns and ammunition are a bad formula.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Burnaby49 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:01 am

And here's another obsessive post on that topic. Just today I read, in my morning paper, about a very significant reason for trial delays in British Columbia I didn't know even existed. It was part of an article about our new provincial government's funding priorities;

Their back and forth focused on Eby’s mandate letter from the premier and the half dozen or so major assignments therein. By the end of it, Eby acknowledged that the $11 million boost his ministry received in September had funded only one item on the list — a much needed top up for sheriffs and other court services.

“There is money allocated for the increase in sheriff staffing, which is quite a desperate situation,” advised Eby. “We’re currently flying sheriffs around the province and requiring huge levels of overtime in order to ensure that our courts stay open.”

The shortage is blamed for 19 courtroom closures and 20 delayed openings over the past 18 months. It was also a contributing factor — though far from the only one — in the two and a half dozen cases that were stayed this year for having exceeded court-mandated guidelines for unacceptable delay.


http://vancouversun.com/news/politics/vaughn-palmer-ndp-can-only-kick-funding-cans-so-far-down-the-road

Your comment about two year pre-trial is appropriate here. Quite often nobody really cares anymore by the time an accused gets his day in court because he's already served (with time and a half for pre-trial detention) whatever sentence the court would have imposed. Nowadays a huge number of convictions get sentences of time served. It was only with Jordan, and the Supreme Court's new rules that resulted in those two and a half dozen stayed charges this year (many for very serious offenses) that the government finally got serious about the issue.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Chaos » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:51 pm

Jeffrey wrote:I gotta admit, being a big softy, the appeals to emotion are kind of working on me.



not me, these turds never gave it a second thought then they went to Malheur and said they would stay there as long as they needed to. they don't give 2 shits about there own family.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Jeffrey » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:46 pm

This is based off Maxine’s tweets and some Poot gossip but it looks like the prosecution has already demolished any claims that this was a peaceful protest (which I admit I harbor some suspicions that some there were there to peacefully protest) of cattle removal or BLM overreach. Completely different vibe from Oregon.

This tweet/thread by JJ shows the opening statements were beyond brutal:

https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/931283452766199808

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:10 pm

The federal prosecutors are pushing ahead with their strategy of convincing the jury that that the Bundys are guilty of conspiring to an armed resistance against the federal government. US Attorney Myhre told the jury that the Bundys won by use of force and threats at "...the end of a gun." His opening statement was 2 hours long, but of the several news articles covering the trial, this is as much as was reported. Not a very good omen in my book if the press cannot find anything more to report on after a two-hour presentation.

The defense seemingly captured the limelight with the press, with presenting video clips of BLM and other federal LEOs taking physical action against the protesters before and during the Bunkerville standoff. Two clips were of other Bundy relatives, unarmed, who were taken down or arrested. This, contended the defense, was evidence that the government was the threat and not the protest. Ryan Bundy claimed in his opening statement that he believed that the militia had saved his life, that if they had not been there, he would have been killed by the government. Ryan Payne's attorney painted Payne as doing nothing more than being a good Samaritan in leaving his job, family and military reputation behind in order to stop the government from bullying the Bundys into another Waco/Ruby Ridge incident.

The opening statements naturally went to the underlying claim that the government was trying to drive the Bundys off land that belonged to them. Ryan admitted to the fact that his father had stopped paying the grazing fees but said that was in response to BLM telling Cliven that he could only have 1/2 of the cattle he currently had. This is going to be an effective strategy with the jury if the prosecution does not attack and defeat it. They will need to clearly show that the Bundy clan never had legal ownership of those lands and get the Bundys to admit that on the stand if possible.

The prosecution is also going to have to deal with the defendants' claims that they never pointed guns at agents or directed others to do the same or to show up with arms. This is exactly why a conspiracy charge is hard to prove. I think that, for some jurors, they are not going to see a conspiracy; they are going to see this event as nothing more than a spontaneous reaction to the Bundy's situation, and regardless of whether the Bundys lied or told the truth, they cannot be blamed for who showed up, weapons or not.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Jeffrey » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:33 am

they are not going to see a conspiracy; they are going to see this event as nothing more than a spontaneous reaction to the Bundy's situation


I can see how you could convince a jury of this and I feel myself attracted to the argument. The natural extension of it is that anytime someone calls for a protest for X injustice, the government can accuse the activist for the actions of the people that showed up even if the initial call to action was peaceful.

I don’t think it’s that hard to explain how Ammon crossed a line in his call to action. The reasoning behind “BLM won’t take my cattle if a bunch of guys with guns show up” is that BLM would be in fear for their lives if a bunch of guys with guns show up. There was a clear implied threat in the standoff that should be easy to prove to a jury.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:12 pm

Jeffrey wrote:I don’t think it’s that hard to explain how Ammon crossed a line in his call to action. The reasoning behind “BLM won’t take my cattle if a bunch of guys with guns show up” is that BLM would be in fear for their lives if a bunch of guys with guns show up. There was a clear implied threat in the standoff that should be easy to prove to a jury.


Agreed. It shouldn't be hard. But so far the Feds seem to be stymied in their efforts to be able present a simple case for conviction. My concern is that the jury is going to end up hanging over 2-3 members thinking that this was another situation where the government was overstepping its authority.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Jeffrey » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:28 pm

Gotta have faith in the jury. Ammon getting off means you can legally nullify an act of Congress with a cheap rifle; rule of law tossed out the window.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby The Observer » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:07 am

Jeffrey wrote:Gotta have faith in the jury. Ammon getting off means you can legally nullify an act of Congress with a cheap rifle; rule of law tossed out the window.


Well, it would not be the first time. The issue of federal land vs state ownership is gaining more traction as a grassroots movement in many Western states. Check out this recent article on Budd-Falen, supposedly on the shortlist for heading up the BLM, lobbying for taking back federal lands in Montana; note who she had been representing on land-use issues.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Jeffrey » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:30 pm

Rumors of mistrial:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-neva ... SKBN1E52P2

Can’t accuse this case of being boring.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Jeffrey » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:07 pm

And now we have BLM investigator alleging misconduct by BLM:

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... misco.html

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Jeffrey » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:49 pm

Mistrial after judge finds 6 willful Brady violations.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... en_bu.html

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Jeffrey » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:18 pm

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... e_thr.html

Case dismissed with prejudice, meaning Cliven gets off completely. Already seen one Bundynista in the comments arguing this means it's legal to point guns at law enforcement.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Pottapaug1938 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:23 am

I have to question the fitness, to investigate criminal violations of the law or to practice law, of the astoundingly stupid people who turned a slam-dunk criminal prosecution into a dismissal with prejudice.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Siegfried Shrink » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:20 am

Have all his cattle been removed from grazing where they should not be grazing. If not I suppose they could be removed, he'd go overboard again, and he could be charged again with something.

Something less tricky to prove than conspiracy, if that was what it was, I have not followed this in detail as I have not played Cowboys and Indians since I was about 12.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Cobalt Shiva » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:56 pm

Pottapaug1938 wrote:I have to question the fitness, to investigate criminal violations of the law or to practice law, of the astoundingly stupid people who turned a slam-dunk criminal prosecution into a dismissal with prejudice.


This was not "stupid."

Willful Brady violations should result in criminal prosecutions of the prosecutors, with hangings for the guilty, preferably with all other prosecutors in the district forced to watch a la Kipling's peom "Danny Deever."

EVERY damn case ever brought by these jackwagons just got called into question.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Jeffrey » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:55 pm

I’m not a fan on the incompetence or intentional theories I’ve seen on the internet. They must be smart to become government prosecutors and conspiracy theories don’t work for me.

I’d guess the problems were pressure to go for heavier charges that a jury wouldn’t buy, failure to recognize that some people in the jury might sympathize with the Bundys. Misunderstanding the nature of the standoff and testimony that sounded like exaggeration. An unwillingness to accept that mistakes were made by the government.

A systemic multi-point failure.

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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Judge Roy Bean » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:33 pm

Cobalt Shiva wrote:...
This was not "stupid."

Willful Brady violations should result in criminal prosecutions of the prosecutors, with hangings for the guilty, preferably with all other prosecutors in the district forced to watch a la Kipling's peom "Danny Deever."

EVERY damn case ever brought by these jackwagons just got called into question.


IMHO, this was trying to be clever and getting caught at it this time. I sense a number of defense counsel offices are already wearing out their mice.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Duke2Earl » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:03 pm

The truth is that federal prosecutors are often marginally competent.....or even less than that as proven here. They ignored the rules and we are all the poorer for it.
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Re: Sovrun Cattle - The Sagebrush Saga of Cliven Bundy

Postby Cobalt Shiva » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:48 am

Duke2Earl wrote:The truth is that federal prosecutors are often marginally competent.....or even less than that as proven here. They ignored the rules and we are all the poorer for it.


And they will not change their ways without drastic outside force.

Fines ain't squat. Directed verdicts ain't squat.

Hangings get people's attention.

If hangings are out of the question, maybe we can bring in some corrections officers from Singapore to administer good old-fashioned canings.


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