Quixtar v. Monavie

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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby Imalawman » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:38 pm

Oh its just so fitting that Silver Beagles would defend quixstar. haha, so fitting indeed. We did have a tread where we posted our collective research - anybody know what happened to that thread? It was gold.
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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby GoldandSilverEagles » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:13 pm

Doktor Avalanche wrote:You don't waste time? That's precisely what you've been doing trying to convice me and everyone else here how groovy Amway is.

I have dealt with many-y people just like you, your nothing new to me. A camper like you is going to believe only what you want to believe.

The People of this forum are free to believe as they like. I simple enjoy pointing out misconceptions as do the rest of you.

You don't realize that we Quatloosians have had more experience with Amway collectively than you've been alive and that nothing you're saying now isn't anything we haven't heard before.


Talk about being magnanimous. ROTHLMFAO!!!!!!!

Do you have your crystal ball and are able to see what experiences I have had with Amway Global? LoL

You have no idea, no comprehension of what experiences I do or do not have in terms of Amway Global, talk about the height of arrogance and grandiosity.

Young man, a person of experience, (myself,) is not at the mercy of a child of theory, that being you.

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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby GoldandSilverEagles » Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:13 pm

Imalawman wrote:Oh its just so fitting that Silver Beagles would defend quixstar. haha, so fitting indeed. We did have a tread where we posted our collective research - anybody know what happened to that thread? It was gold.

You appear to portray the persona that you have it 2gether as an individual and as a professional lawyer.

Please answer me something Mr. "Imalawman". Why do you engage in the juvenile, junior high behavior of name calling? Is that not a bit beneath and below the status and image of a professional representative and officer of the courts? :roll:

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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby Imalawman » Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:44 pm

GoldandSilverEagles wrote:
Imalawman wrote:Oh its just so fitting that Silver Beagles would defend quixstar. haha, so fitting indeed. We did have a tread where we posted our collective research - anybody know what happened to that thread? It was gold.

You appear to portray the persona that you have it 2gether as an individual and as a professional lawyer.

Please answer me something Mr. "Imalawman". Why do you engage in the juvenile, junior high behavior of name calling? Is that not a bit beneath and below the status and image of a professional representative and officer of the courts? :roll:


What Silver Beagles? I think its funny. Does that really offend you? Why do you have a such a silly name?

Look, you're just so typically a tax protester that its humorous to me and to other. I have zero tolerance for both tax protesting and quixstar. It has ruined the lives of some people very close to me. I know more about quixstar than you can possible imagine. I've listened to hours of those god awful tapes, expounding the wealth, the dreams, the simple way to earn money in quixstar. I've been involved in actual trials of TPs and seen some very close friends of mine lose everything because of tax protesting. So, excuse me if I don't warm up to those that still espouse frauds and scams that have robbed many people of many years of production.

here's good links -http://www.merchantsofdeception.com/purpose.html

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/

http://www.casewatch.org/civil/amway/class_action_complaint.shtml

http://www.amquix.info/amway_hall_of_shame.html

That will get you started. I post on here to keep people from wasting their lives and to face reality and point out hucksters - not to play nice with those that refuse to see the cold, hard facts of life - aka, those referenced in my sig line.
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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby GoldandSilverEagles » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:25 pm

Imalawman wrote: What Silver Beagles? I think its funny. Does that really offend you? Why do you have a such a silly name?
"GoldandSilverEagles" is a silly name? Really? lol

Look, you're just so typically a tax protester that its humorous to me and to other. I have zero tolerance for both tax protesting and quixstar. It has ruined the lives of some people very close to me.

Care to share the details?

I know more about quixstar than you can possible imagine. I've listened to hours of those god awful tapes, expounding the wealth, the dreams, the simple way to earn money in quixstar.

And what have you experienced personally?

I've been involved in actual trials of TPs and seen some very close friends of mine lose everything because of tax protesting. So, excuse me if I don't warm up to those that still espouse frauds and scams that have robbed many people of many years of production.

I understand how you feel there. I too have seen people lose homes, jobs, livelihoods. However, I simply don't believe the tax system is as "cut and dry" as portrayed in Quatloos. Yet I do believe that is what you folks want to portray. Is It is my guess many of the folks in here derive their livelihood through the tax system (lawyers, accountants, etc) and thus they feel it is important to defend it.


That will get you started. I post on here to keep people from wasting their lives and to face reality and point out hucksters - not to play nice with those that refuse to see the cold, hard facts of life - aka, those referenced in my sig line.

You are not the first camper to bring these to my attention. I understand that people have been hurt by the treatment of other in the business. In Amway, as anything else in life, if you look for the bad you will find it. On the flip side, if you look for the good, that's there too.

Just because some people have gotten hurt, that doesnt mean the business, as a whole, is bad.

People get hurt by doctors, and drug companies, every year, does that mean those professions/industries are bad?

To contrast, I would encourage for you, and anyone else, to contact an Amway IBO (Independent Business Owner,) and ask to see their recent copies of the Amway magazine "Achieve". In the back is listed numerous names of people who are presently building reasonably large businesses EVERY MONTH, through Amway Global. "Achieve" is published fairly regularly, and it shows the achievements of IBO's who are presently building respectable (and profitable) businesses through Amway Global.


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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby Imalawman » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:14 pm

GoldandSilverEagles wrote:You are not the first camper to bring these to my attention. I understand that people have been hurt by the treatment of other in the business. In Amway, as anything else in life, if you look for the bad you will find it. On the flip side, if you look for the good, that's there too.

Just because some people have gotten hurt, that doesnt mean the business, as a whole, is bad.

People get hurt by doctors, and drug companies, every year, does that mean those professions/industries are bad?

To contrast, I would encourage for you, and anyone else, to contact an Amway IBO (Independent Business Owner,) and ask to see their recent copies of the Amway magazine "Achieve". In the back is listed numerous names of people who are presently building reasonably large businesses EVERY MONTH, through Amway Global. "Achieve" is published fairly regularly, and it shows the achievements of IBO's who are presently building respectable (and profitable) businesses through Amway Global.


Funny, how when I ask to see more than a magazine, they clam up. For instance, I once played along with someone that asked me to join his "internet based business". I went along with the spiel and then asked for his financial statements. Funny, he didn't want to give me his account information. I then said no, your business statements, financial statement, cash flows, etc. I want to see that your business is successful. I asked what form his business was in, LLC, S corp, etc. How many employees, etc. yeah, it didn't go so well. I'm waiting for just ONE quixstar IBO to offer their business statements for my inspection.

A very close friend of mine once made it direct, with a fairly stable downline, good balance in his legs. His gross income for the year - after expenses, around $1200. Broken down per hour he made about $1.00 per hour. I know other businesses lose money, but that's not what was promised him. Finally, he sat down and really talked with the group diamond, and asked about the other side of amway and said he wanted in because that's where the money really was. The Diamond admitted that he has never made hardly anything off of products sales, it was all in the media - the tapes, CDs, etc. That's how he had his 8,000 sq. ft. house. My friend wrestled with everything because he bought into the system, only find out the system was gamed from the start. He left and regrets the wasted years, but that's a happy ending because he found out about it early on. I've known other friends parents who've spent years and years in the business only to come out with bills for the amway media.

Yes, all anecdotal, with no support, I admit. However, I point you to the many stories of ex-diamonds that have come out against the scam. This is the scam - you're promised you can make money off of the products. Unless you get about a million people directly under you, there's no way you can do it. The ONLY way to make money is through the media. And yes, I readily admit that if you have an electric personality, no morals, and a gift for deceit, there's lots of money to be made in that business. Lots.
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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby GoldandSilverEagles » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:02 pm

Imalawman wrote: Funny, how when I ask to see more than a magazine, they clam up. For instance, I once played along with someone that asked me to join his "internet based business". I went along with the spiel and then asked for his financial statements. Funny, he didn't want to give me his account information. I then said no, your business statements, financial statement, cash flows, etc. I want to see that your business is successful. I asked what form his business was in, LLC, S corp, etc. How many employees, etc. yeah, it didn't go so well. I'm waiting for just ONE quixstar IBO to offer their business statements for my inspection.
First off, every one of those IBO's in the magazine, at the level of Platinum and up, are earning multiple checks directly from Amway Global itself. Several months ago, I attended an Amway sponsored function with some friends. At the function Amway published the annual incomes for Platinum at 70,000$* (*that figure included the value of a yearly all expense paid leadership function called "Q-12", valued for tax purposes: 20,000$)

Question for you. Suppose someone was interested in falling in your footsteps and going into law exactly as you have. Would you open up your business statements, financial statement, cash flows, etc. in order to prove that your practice was successful if you were asked?

To address the employees question, IBO's usually don't have employees until they exceed the level of Ruby. One Diamond that I know personally has only one employee to work in his office. In terms of incorporation, most of the businesses that I have seen don't feel the need to incorporate below the level of Ruby.

In terms of joining with someone who has no less than a thriving business, join with someone who has attained the diamond level. Just because someone wants to maintain financial privacy, that is not a fair nor reasonable basis to conclude they do not have a profitable business.

A very close friend of mine once made it direct, with a fairly stable downline, good balance in his legs. His gross income for the year - after expenses, around $1200. Broken down per hour he made about $1.00 per hour.

They made it to the Direct level and were only making 1200$ a year. Unless a majority of his downline was purchasing next to nil I have a very hard time buying that. Directs (now called Platinums) frequently make more than twice that, from Amway, on any given month.


I know other businesses lose money, but that's not what was promised him. Finally, he sat down and really talked with the group diamond, and asked about the other side of amway and said he wanted in because that's where the money really was. The Diamond admitted that he has never made hardly anything off of products sales, it was all in the media - the tapes, CDs, etc. That's how he had his 8,000 sq. ft. house.


That sounds like a load of crap. I'd like the name of that Diamond, if you would kindly provide it.

My friend wrestled with everything because he bought into the system, only find out the system was gamed from the start. He left and regrets the wasted years, but that's a happy ending because he found out about it early on. I've known other friends parents who've spent years and years in the business only to come out with bills for the amway media.
Your words prove nothing, as a judge in a court of law would likely say, 'your words are hearsay without a witness to back them'.

Yes, all anecdotal, with no support, I admit. However, I point you to the many stories of ex-diamonds that have come out against the scam. This is the scam - you're promised you can make money off of the products. Unless you get about a million people directly under you, there's no way you can do it.

The word frivolous now comes to mind. For a business organization to qualify as Diamond, one would require far less than a million people.

Back to one of my original points, if Amway was this "scam" that you and others in Quatloos claim, then why aren't they shut down? The answer is quite simple....Amway is not a scam, and that is why they have remained open for business, alll 50 years.

The ONLY way to make money is through the media. And yes, I readily admit that if you have an electric personality, no morals, and a gift for deceit, there's lots of money to be made in that business. Lots.

"The only way to make $$$ is through the media." What qualifies you to make that statement? Are you making any $$$ thru Amway? I venture to say "NO". Then you do not qualify to make such statements, based upon the lack of your own personal efforts/experiences.

No morals eh? When you were listening to those Amway tapes you must have been asleep when they talk about God and Christianity and treating your fellows with honor, respect, and integrity.

Perhaps you need to go back and hear those tapes again as they preach about Christianity and respect, honor, and integrity and stay awake this time. lol

Their on going preaching of Christianity was the only thing that turned me off in regards to Amway.

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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby Arthur Rubin » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:42 pm

GoldandSilverEagles wrote:Question for you. Suppose someone was interested in falling in your footsteps and going into law exactly as you have. Would you open up your business statements, financial statement, cash flows, etc. in order to prove that your practice was successful if you were asked?
If I wanted to convince them, yes. A redacted tax return would be adequate to convince me that the business is claimed to be profitable (although, it's possible that not all the income is "real", such as the $20,000 conference you mention later.)

This is supposed to be a business, so there should be financial and cash flow statements. (As an aside, I admit I forgot to claim as income the $10 we received from [MLM name redacted] in 2002. Report me to the IRS.... (As a further aside, we're still "members" of that MLM, as we believe the product quality differs from other similar products on the market, but no longer "distributors".))

In any case, I would be perfectly willing to show someone a redacted 1040 Schedule C from my side business, if I wanted to convince someone that it was profitable. (As a further aside, the person I showed it to would have to trust me that it was legit, as I wouldn't leave enough information for them to verify it with the IRS.)
Last edited by Arthur Rubin on Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby Arthur Rubin » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:45 pm

GoldandSilverEagles wrote:off, every one of those IBO's in the magazine, at the level of Platinum and up, are earning multiple checks directly from Amway Global itself. Several months ago, I attended an Amway sponsored function with some friends. At the function Amway published the annual incomes for Platinum at 70,000$* (*that figure included the value of a yearly all expense paid leadership function called "Q-12", valued for tax purposes: 20,000$)
Normally, the $ precedes the number. Is this, perhaps Tongan $'s or some other currency with which I am not familiar?
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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby Imalawman » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:47 pm

GoldandSilverEagles wrote:Question for you. Suppose someone was interested in falling in your footsteps and going into law exactly as you have. Would you open up your business statements, financial statement, cash flows, etc. in order to prove that your practice was successful if you were asked?


Depends on the situation. Let's go back to my example. I was given the line that is taught in the training meetings in quixtar (yes, I have been to several of them). The line was, "looking for people to join me in my web-based business". Then, he wants me to go into business with him and to join a system. We will be tied together in the business and it does require a particular outlay of cash. So my question was, "show your business statements". I did NOT ask for his private records of his own personal finances.

So I happen to work in a larger firm. But when I was recruited by some smaller firms I would have expected to see some financial statements indicating how successful the business was. Larger firms just pay the associates enough not to care - at first.

The answer - if were being asked by a unknown law student in whom I was not interested to see my personal records, then no, I would not. However, if I were recruiting that person, then they might ask for my firm's business records and I think we'd probably show him some simple statements showing the underlying profitability.

This is where Amway's marketing arm breaks down. No one really operates like a legitimate business. Sure some of the Bill Britt types and double diamonds do. Otherwise its a bunch of hopelessly befuddled people struggling to make ends meet.

You're surprised that that's all the direct made AFTER expenses? You shouldn't be. This is the problem. Quixtar doesn't want people to really operate like a business and track expenses and revenue. They would all quit. The "business" is so damned expensive that any sensible person after running the numbers would quit.

I did not say that diamonds did not any money off of sales, but that is not what is generating the big bucks. Its the media. As early as 1980, Amway knew this was a problem because at that time Bill Britt's income was 70% derived from media sales and not product sales. It has always been a problem to show that the upper echelon's main source of revenue isn't the media.

Amway itself is a legitimate business that is controlled by a corrupt marketing arm. Amway sells tons of its products, its just that the IBO's are the ones doing all the buying to and bump up theirs sales numbers up.

And the mere fact that they try and peddle Christianity is what makes them deceitful. Well, I almost divulged who I knew in the business but I'm not going to - the internet is too public. But if you are in the business then you know that a few years ago one of the leading diamonds came forward that they had been divorced and/or separated for years, but went on stage anyway to show how wonderful their marriage was and how great a Christian couple they were - all the while they were living in separate houses. You'll know their names if you have been in the business a long time. That is the evidence of the deceit and lies that are practiced. Pump up and get the crowd motivated at all times. There's no training in accounting for your amway business - hahaha can you imagine them showing you how to break down your hourly profits from strolling around Target looking for contacts? yeah, they ain't going to point out that directs (yes, good catch Platinum now) make $1.00 an hour and emeralds make slightly more than that. Its about being able to account for your business - IBO's simply can't and don't want to break down their profit margins.

But go ahead and join a system that teaches you to recruit your own competition.
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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby GoldandSilverEagles » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:40 pm

Arthur Rubin wrote:
GoldandSilverEagles wrote:off, every one of those IBO's in the magazine, at the level of Platinum and up, are earning multiple checks directly from Amway Global itself. Several months ago, I attended an Amway sponsored function with some friends. At the function Amway published the annual incomes for Platinum at 70,000$* (*that figure included the value of a yearly all expense paid leadership function called "Q-12", valued for tax purposes: 20,000$)
Normally, the $ precedes the number. Is this, perhaps Tongan $'s or some other currency with which I am not familiar?

If you read English left to right "$20,000", reads as, "dollars twenty thousand", yet people don't pronounce it that way.

Reading from left to right "20,000$" says "twenty thousand dollars".

Actually if you want to get down right technical about it "20,000$" should be pronounced as "twenty thousand federal reserve notes" since that is what it represents.

Years ago, I had a friend who would write checks in the following manner. He'd write a check for "10$" and on the line where you write out the amount he'd write, "ten federal reserve note credits". lol

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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby Pottapaug1938 » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:31 pm

GoldandSilverEagles wrote:
Arthur Rubin wrote:
GoldandSilverEagles wrote:off, every one of those IBO's in the magazine, at the level of Platinum and up, are earning multiple checks directly from Amway Global itself. Several months ago, I attended an Amway sponsored function with some friends. At the function Amway published the annual incomes for Platinum at 70,000$* (*that figure included the value of a yearly all expense paid leadership function called "Q-12", valued for tax purposes: 20,000$)
Normally, the $ precedes the number. Is this, perhaps Tongan $'s or some other currency with which I am not familiar?

If you read English left to right "$20,000", reads as, "dollars twenty thousand", yet people don't pronounce it that way.

Reading from left to right "20,000$" says "twenty thousand dollars".

Actually if you want to get down right technical about it "20,000$" should be pronounced as "twenty thousand federal reserve notes" since that is what it represents.

Years ago, I had a friend who would write checks in the following manner. He'd write a check for "10$" and on the line where you write out the amount he'd write, "ten federal reserve note credits". lol


I have seen this way of writing among people for whom English is not their primary language, mostly in Puerto Rico and in Quebec. The "$" is always understood to represent "dollars", BTW.
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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby Judge Roy Bean » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:49 pm

GoldandSilverEagles wrote:...
If you read English left to right "$20,000", reads as, "dollars twenty thousand", yet people don't pronounce it that way.

Reading from left to right "20,000$" says "twenty thousand dollars".

LOL - That's not what it says. It says "twenty thousand."

The dollar sign leading the figures is a holdover from the traditional English use of the leading pound sign for currency amounts. Historically, part of the purpose of the symbol in the leftmost position is to prevent increasing the written value via simple forgery, i.e., slipping a '1' in the space before the first digit.
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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby GoldandSilverEagles » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:49 am

Pottapaug1938 wrote: The "$" is always understood to represent "dollars", BTW.

I believe the courts have ruled that though federal reserve notes are legal tender, and they may represent "dollars", they are not necessarily "dollars" per se. I'd have to pull the case.

On another note, (pun intended,) I believe way back in the day when gold and silver dollars were used in the US the dollar sign on paper work, receipts, (etc..) had two vertical lines going through the symbol, the $, not just one.

I have not researched this but the story I heard was that the original symbol for a US (gold/silver based) dollar was a capital "S" laid in top of a Capital "U", signifying a "US dollar". Then I heard the lower part of the "U" got erased leaving only two vertical lines in the symbol. I had heard that identified dollars that were gold/silver based. I heard the bankers dropped one of the two vertical lines when the dollar was no longer backed by gold/silver.

I've not researched this online. Who knows ?????

GoldandSilverEagles

Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby GoldandSilverEagles » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:53 am

Judge Roy Bean wrote:
GoldandSilverEagles wrote:...
If you read English left to right "$20,000", reads as, "dollars twenty thousand", yet people don't pronounce it that way.

Reading from left to right "20,000$" says "twenty thousand dollars".

LOL - That's not what it says. It says "twenty thousand."

The dollar sign leading the figures is a holdover from the traditional English use of the leading pound sign for currency amounts. Historically, part of the purpose of the symbol in the leftmost position is to prevent increasing the written value via simple forgery, i.e., slipping a '1' in the space before the first digit.

Our language is already screwed up 2 much, leave it to the English to screw with us one more time! LoL

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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby LaVidaRoja » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:40 am

Remember Contracts I: "The issue is, what is chicken?" Frigaliment Importing Co v B.N.S. International Sales Corp. (United States District Court, S.D. N.Y , 1960 190 R. Supp. 116)
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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby wserra » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:41 pm

In an effect to wrench this thread back on topic, I took a look at the docket. 524 entries. I know that there are a couple of other related dockets as well. Man, the lawyers must be billing up a storm. Couldn't happen to nicer clients.

No way I'm going through a 500-entry docket. Skimming it, it appears to be the standard acrimonious discovery disputes, but the judge may be getting tired of it. For example, a couple of weeks ago Amway attempted to appeal the district judge's purported denial of a stay to allow arbitration to proceed about - well, I don't care enough to look, and it doesn't matter. Monavie responded that the Court did not even enter such an order - and the Court apparently agrees: "This court hereby certifies that the Amway Defendants' notice of appeal from a ruling that was NOT made by this court is patently frivolous."

I don't think I've ever seen that before. I don't see how this one doesn't end in sanctions for someone (or, hopefully, everyone).
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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby wserra » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:59 pm

UGA Lawdog wrote:
(f) Motion to Strike. The court may strike from a pleading an insufficient defense or any redundant, immaterial, impertinent, or scandalous matter.


Right you are. I have no recollection of this provision, perhaps because you see these motions so often from lawyers billing by the pound that you think they are all baseless.

BTW, the Court denied this one too. See docket entry 63.
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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby GoldandSilverEagles » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:34 pm

I'm fixing to show you that you don't know as much about the business as you portray.

You present much speculation/misinformation.

Imalawman wrote: Depends on the situation. Let's go back to my example. I was given the line that is taught in the training meetings in quixtar (yes, I have been to several of them). The line was, "looking for people to join me in my web-based business". Then, he wants me to go into business with him and to join a system. We will be tied together in the business and it does require a particular outlay of cash. So my question was, "show your business statements". I did NOT ask for his private records of his own personal finances.

So I happen to work in a larger firm. But when I was recruited by some smaller firms I would have expected to see some financial statements indicating how successful the business was. Larger firms just pay the associates enough not to care - at first.

The answer - if were being asked by a unknown law student in whom I was not interested to see my personal records, then no, I would not. However, if I were recruiting that person, then they might ask for my firm's business records and I think we'd probably show him some simple statements showing the underlying profitability.


I understand your POV, but you are attempting to compare "apples" with "orange. The business of an Amway IBO cannot be accurately measured in the same way a law practice is measured because the IBO does not build their business in the same manner a traditional business such as law firm does. To keep this short and sweet, prospects rarely ask for business records or statements. The corporate sales history is presented, and a worldwide corp. that is doing in upwards of seven billion in sales worldwide is obviously doing something right.

IBO's also show a taste of the "Diamond lifestyle" in addition to income projections. That's really all that is necessary from that stand point. It's not a difficult analysis, and there is no need to make it so.

This is where Amway's marketing arm breaks down. No one really operates like a legitimate business. Sure some of the Bill Britt types and double diamonds do. Otherwise its a bunch of hopelessly befuddled people struggling to make ends meet.

So all of the Platinum's and above (whom are making in excess of 40K+ a year from the corp.) with the exception of the "Bill Britt types and double diamonds" are as you put it, "..a bunch of hopelessly befuddled people struggling to make ends meet."

Many IBO's who achieve the ruby level (twice the size of a Platinum business, to qualify) retire from their "J.O.B." because they can afford to!

A Diamond named Dave Severn, has stated on tape that when he was at the Ruby level (back in the late 70's early 80's) he was netting over $130k from his Amway business.

You really don't know what your talking about do you. LOL ~ Ignorance is definitely bliss! LOL

You're surprised that that's all the direct made AFTER expenses? You shouldn't be. This is the problem. Quixtar doesn't want people to really operate like a business and track expenses and revenue. They would all quit. The "business" is so damned expensive that any sensible person after running the numbers would quit.

Such short term thinking on your part. Lol.

Let's say that it takes someone two years to go Platinum and it costs, for the sake of argument, 100K. Built properly it won't run 100k but lets use that for the example anyway.
Amway Global is says..."The average bonus and cash payments earned by a Q12 Platinum, an IBO who qualifies at the Platinum level all 12 months of the year, were $47,472.*" (see below)

Now that does not include the achievers leadership function awarded at the end of the year, and valued at 20K per Platinum (and above) IBO business, for tax purposes.

Now once you go Platinum, you would have your investment back in a little over 2 years, and that doesnt factor in that your business doesn't stay at that level while your getting your initial 100K back, your business in continuing to grow.

Statistically, IBO's don't quit when they achieve the Platinum level. They continue.

Your "theory" doesnt hold water.

I did not say that diamonds did not any money off of sales, but that is not what is generating the big bucks. Its the media. As early as 1980, Amway knew this was a problem because at that time Bill Britt's income was 70% derived from media sales and not product sales. It has always been a problem to show that the upper echelon's main source of revenue isn't the media.

This should help.

IBO STATISTICS

Independent Business Owners have pocketed $2.2 billion out of Quixtar's $6.8 billion in sales in the form of bonuses and incentives since 1999. IBOs earn income based on business volume resulting from their efforts, using Quixtar's proven Independent Business Owner Compensation Plan. Quixtar does not generate site traffic through advertising, instead rewarding IBOs who provide the “high-touch” element complementing Quixtar's “high-tech” infrastructure.

* IBOs earned $370.1 million in bonuses and incentives in fiscal 2006, bringing their seven-year total to more than $1.72 billion.
* More than 370,000 Independent Business Owners received a bonus in FY 05.
* The average bonus and cash payments earned by a Diamond IBO in 2005 were $146,995.*
* The average bonus and cash payments earned by an Emerald in 2005 were $72,241.*
* The average bonus and cash payments earned by a Q12 Platinum, an IBO who qualifies at the Platinum level all 12 months of the year, were $47,472.*
* The largest annual bonus earned by a Diamond IBO in 2005 was $1,083,421.
* The largest annual bonus earned by an Emerald IBO in 2005 was $688,869.

http://www.thisbiznow.com/quixtar/ibo_statistics.html

Amway itself is a legitimate business that is controlled by a corrupt marketing arm. Amway sells tons of its products, its just that the IBO's are the ones doing all the buying to and bump up theirs sales numbers up.

It's true that the IBO's DO buy a majority of the products, however, to qualify for bonuses, over 70% of their purchases must be resold to their downline and retail customers.

Amway has a "ten customer run". One must sell products at the retail level to ten customers to qualify for a bonus.

And the mere fact that they try and peddle Christianity is what makes them deceitful. Well, I almost divulged who I knew in the business but I'm not going to - the internet is too public. But if you are in the business then you know that a few years ago one of the leading diamonds came forward that they had been divorced and/or separated for years, but went on stage anyway to show how wonderful their marriage was and how great a Christian couple they were - all the while they were living in separate houses. You'll know their names if you have been in the business a long time. That is the evidence of the deceit and lies that are practiced.

You refuse to mention who that individual was. That gives your claim no credibility. Your claim cannot be verified.

Pump up and get the crowd motivated at all times. There's no training in accounting for your amway business -

Oh but there is...WorldWide Dream Builders, a leadership organization made up of Amways Diamonds and above, make available tapes to assist one in the accounting of their business. They also offer a service called "Executive Planners" that assists IBO's in doing their taxes.


But go ahead and join a system that teaches you to recruit your own competition.

True. However, so few people are willing to do what it takes to build a profitable business that the competition is so-o low.

There aren't enough men in society who are willing to work to insure their families future, in addition to the future of their child and their childen's children.

Oh, I forgot to add, the business is fully willable to your heirs,

Is your income from your law practice fully willable to your heirs after you retire/die?

Arthur Rubin
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Re: Quixtar v. Monavie

Postby Arthur Rubin » Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:16 pm

GoldandSilverEagles wrote:Oh but there is...WorldWide Dream Builders, a leadership organization made up of Amways Diamonds and above, make available tapes to assist one in the accounting of their business. They also offer a service called "Executive Planners" that assists IBO's in doing their taxes.
I wonder if there's probable cause to subpoena their materials or customer list. After all, most independent contractors pad their expense records, and I believe Avon's tax assistance program was enjoined already.
Arthur Rubin, unemployed tax preparer and aerospace engineer
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