one24

"Buy 1 for yourself and get the chance to sell your friends and family 5 and get your downline started!" We examine the multi-level marketing industry, where only the people who come up with the ideas make any money, and everybody else is left unhappy, broke, and tired of reading scripts and selling overpriced vitamins and similarly worthless products. Includes Global Prosperity, Pinnacle Quest International, IRS Codebusters, Stratia, and other new Global Prosperity scams.

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one24

Postby JamesVincent » Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:18 am

Hey guys, new guy here. I want you to take look at an MLM I am involved in and see if you can find any negativity to it. I did some research on it before I joined and could not find anything. A lot of the posts I have read in here have some serious research behind it. I must say when I researched one24 I was also looking at a lot of other MLMs and finding dirt everywhere. From the founders of the companies to the products ( or no products in the case of some of them ) I looked at all the ones I had heard about or found in my searching. When I started looking at one 24, I couldnt find a single thing. Its founder, Mark Seyforth, is an old hand in network marketing and the health industry with a string of established successful companies behind him. No flags there. No extraordinary claims were made about the product that would raise the flag. Basically a super food/ meal replacement like a lot of others out there. The thing that got me was the linear compensation plan which was unique and, incidentally, what Top Level Position seems to have copied, if you can find a copy of their comp plan. I want people to look at it and see if there's something I missed. I will put my company website up for you guys to see the info on there to get you started in your research. Have fun and look forward to reading what you find.

Referral link redacted by moderator. Use the main site here instead.
Last edited by webhick on Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: one24

Postby webhick » Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:47 am

Just an FYI for future posts, we don't allow referral links here because it's advertising so if you need to link to something, please use the main site.

I'm checking out the site now and will post my findings tonight or tomorrow.

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Re: one24

Postby JamesVincent » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:04 am

Sorry about that and thank you for fixing it.
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Re: one24

Postby Judge Roy Bean » Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:48 am

Mark Seyforth, is an old hand in network marketing and the health industry with a string of established successful companies behind him. No flags there.


No flags there?

Don't you understand the problem with that claim?

If you don't, we can understand why you're so diligent in trying to drive up the traffic. :roll:

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Re: one24

Postby JamesVincent » Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:32 pm

You know, a friend of mine also said there was a problem with a man doing different things. He was also the same person who told me that Send Out Cards was the best MLM out there and that I was stupid for not signing up for it. Granted, hes a millionaire and Im not but if the biggest problem is that Mr. Seyforth retired at one point and came back to different companies or ran different companies after creating herbalife, is it that bad? Thats why I am asking if you find real problems, I have already heard conjecture. I would like to see some facts.
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Re: one24

Postby webhick » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:51 pm

Okay, I looked at the compensation plan. Now, for those playing at home who don't feel like reading the PDF provided by the company here, I'll spell it out as I understood it. I'm going to refer to NaturaBurst as "the product" only because it's a little awkward to type. I'm also going to talk about funds received through these plans as commission. I'm using the term recruit to represent a fully functioning recruit, not someone who's waitlisted.

To sign up, I first have to get on someone's (my referrer's) Waiting List. Eventually, that someone will give me a green ticket which allows me to make my first purchase. The User Guide outlines the process a bit. I got distracted by the screen captures. You know how I get with shiny objects, bright colors, and prices. The product costs $60 for a 30 day supply and is on an auto-ship. The S&H is $9.75. I have now become my referrer's "Green."

So, now that I'm all signed up, I can start recruiting right? Well, kind of. I can get lots of people to my waiting list, but I can't do anything with them until I get my first green ticket. You see, green tickets are how you actually get your recruits signed up. I won't see any until 15 days after I sign up, at which point I'll get 24. So I can start adding a flurry of recruits to my downline then, right? Not really. I can only use one green ticket a month. You'll need to know this later.

Ah, but there's another kind of ticket - the GOLD ticket. Unused green tickets become up for grabs on the 24th of the month (new recruits get extra time to use their first ticket) and when you grab one, it becomes a Gold ticket. It looks like a gold ticket isn't subject to the one a month rule.

Okay, so there are four levels of compensation. Let's hit them one at a time.

Green Income
Under this plan, my downline consists of everyone I signed up, everyone they signed up, everyone they signed up and so on up to 12 tiers - one that looks like a pyramid. For every product unit my downline sells, I earn $1.50. Assuming maximum allowable pyramid, for each product unit sold, $18 is distributed to the upline as commission. Of course, that'll take forever to get up to that point unless I grab those golden tickets as quick as a bunny and my downline follows suit.

Silver Income
This one looks like the linear plan. If someone in my upline recruits someone, they are automatically added beneath me as my "Silver." Anyone my "Silver" recruits automatically becomes my "Silver" with no limitation. The money earned here is dual. I'm a little confused about this because first the company says it takes 8% of the sales and evenly distributes it according to the little chart which says it gives 2% to people who have been there one month, 4% to the two-monthers, 6% to the three-monthers, and 8% to the four-monthers. That's 20%, not 8%. So, I'm thinking they take 8% of the sales, break it up into ten parts, give one part to the one-monthers, two parts to the two-monthers, three parts to the three-monthers, and four parts to the four-monthers. At least I hope that's the case, if not then I...I'm buying them a calculator.

For those with the home game, the first part of the Silver income evenly distributes $4.80 of each product sold to people who have been there four months and less.

The second part of the Silver income goes as such. You take all the recruits you personally signed up for and multiply that by the amount of silvers under you. That's how many shares you qualified for. Okay, now the company takes 8% of their sales and divides that by all the qualified shares in the company. That's the share value. Now, the amount of money you get in the second part of the Silver income is your qualified shares X the share value. Okay, so that's another 8% ($4.80) of each product sold that goes to compensation.

Gold Income
Where I expected the Gold Income section, I instead found the "Gold Rush" info there instead. I guess it's kind of the same thing. Commission is split evenly with the original ticket holder (OTH) up to $200, beyond that you get the rest. So if the bonus is $50, you get $25 and the OTH gets $25. If the bonus is $200, you get $100 and the OTH gets $100. If it's $500, then you get $400 and the OTH gets $100.

Platinum Income
Still with me? Sick puppy. They take 4% of the monthly sales, add in unpaid commissions from the month and run it like the second part of the Silver income plan. The only difference is how they calculate the qualified shares. They don't explain the exact formula for figuring out the shares, but there's a chart. To qualify for one share, you have to recruit six people and they have to recruit two each. To qualify for seven shares, you have to recruit 12 people and they have to recruit two each. So, that's another 4% or $2.40 of the each product sold that goes to commission.

That's the end of the income plans. Now I was looking to see what someone might make if they sold product themselves. I see a something in the glossary section of their compensation PDF that says that an Ordering Preferred Customer buys product at a discounted price and an Active Preferred Customer purchases and recruits, but mentions no discount. I mean, aside from needing the $60 minimum monthly order (one product unit at no discount?) to stay in the program, where is the income making opportunity with actually selling the product to someone you aren't recruiting?

I find the slow recruitment process to be unique. I mean, first of all you can only recruit one person a month for two years (gold tickets are the exception) and stop earning commission after the twelfth tier on any product sold. If you fail to recruit one person a month, then you It looks like you stand to lose all but $100 of your commission for that month to another recruiter - which only leaves a profit of close to $30 after my auto-ship happens. Clearly the focus here is recruiting, not selling. After all, why else would you be penalized so severely for failing to recruiting? Aren't we supposed to be pushing product here? Sure, a couple of the plans are based on overall sales for the company, but how much of those sales are coming from recruits and how much is being sold to people outside the company?

Also, the product is overpriced. I mean, as I outlined above it looks like $30 of the $60 you pay for the product goes to paying just commissions. That's not including the company's overhead, so you know they're making the product for dirt cheap.

I'm not going to look too much into the ingredients at this time because I didn't really see anything that really jumps out at me. But, what concerns me is the nutritional statistics. This company is claiming that the product can be used as a meal supplement and also claims that it is equivalent to six servings of fruits and vegetables. In the company's product there is 16% protein, 50% of vitamin A, 25% calcium, and 6% iron. That's not six servings of fruits and vegetables and besides, we're only supposed to have two servings of fruit and three servings of vegetables a day, so even if it really does give you six servings that's one serving too much even if I just replace one meal a day and refrain from eating fruits and veg for the rest of the day. If I replace two meals a day or even use it as a snack between meals, I'll also risk OD'ing on vitamin A or - more likely - C, which in high doses and combined with iron (one of the few nutritional elements that registers in this product) can be fatal or at the very least make you very digestively uncomfortable. And for someone like me with chronic kidney stones which requires that I monitor my intake of several things, including vitamin c, the product would likely put me in the hospital with a very serious bout of stones.

Now, compare this to a product like Ensure which has a minimum of 25% of 22 vitamins and minerals, contains 18% protein, and 12% potassium. Now that's a product that can replace a meal in a pinch without worrying about OD'ing on anything. Now, my grandfather drank one a day when he had cancer to help maintain his health and IIRC, I was getting it at Sam's for less than $1.50 or $45 per month. The product that 124 is selling costs $69.95 or $2.33 per day. Now, can someone please tell me why would I spend $0.80 more per day for a product that has roughly 20% less in it? Anyone? I'm at a loss here.
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Re: one24

Postby JamesVincent » Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:52 pm

Thats pretty close to the comp plan as I understand it. The silver income (i.e. the 2%,4% etc ) is based on the total number of people in the company. I believe last month it netted $1.22/ person paid. Which is what each person recieved as their silver bonus. The silver performance bonus goes by the number of people you have recruited and then times the number of silvers below equaling your share. As of today I have 1584 people below me and one person I have recruited since I joined 2 weeks ago. So I qualify for 1584 shares. Unless I sign more people in the gold rush which is still happening.

The plan is explained as being designed for someone to build a slow build to retirement. Meaning if you work part time at it and sign one person a month in 24 months if everyone does the same thing, you should be making $100k /month residual. If you do absolutely nothing but pay your autoship and use the product then you have the potential to make $2400/ month plus silver bonus every month residual without doing anything.

I agree the price for the product is high. I am not a nutritionist so I am not going to argue about the facts on that. If you think they are off, maybe they are. I know I have been using it as a meal replacement for breakfast for the 2 weeks Ive had it and feel a little better and have had some weight loss. Could be from not eating the high sugar cereals and what not i was eating. And by weight loss I mean maybe 2-3 lbs so Im not gonna argue about the claims they make, you may be correct and its not the best product out there for the price. There is a new product being released as we speak that is not on the site yet that replaces some of the ingredients to make it lactose free. The had talked about making an actual storefront type of business, not sure where that is heading.

Does the overall company seem well? Does it seem like the non-MLM MLM that it has been advertised as? Does the change in direction away from a typical suck in as many people as you can and live off the work of others MLMs make it different? Or is it a different and unique way to do the same thing at the end of the day?

Ive looked at a lot of them over the years and have done several of them and had no joy while a lot of others made a mint. Most of them if you arent in at the beginning you get left behind and just slave your rear off to make your upline rich and you break even. Seemed to me with the way they did things it changed that up a little and evened it out a little.

And also, if you think I am trying to advertise for myself, pull my article and send me a PM with what you think. Obviously I am in business to make money, but I also want to know what someone is going to think about the company I am in business with. I have always thought reputation will carry you farther than anything you can really do and I dont want to be out building up a company and have it shot down as the worst scam in 10 years.
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Re: one24

Postby Brandybuck » Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:53 pm

Here's the bottom line with any MLM: you gotta sell the product. I used to be with Amway, and I quit in frustration because zero emphasis was placed on selling the product. I had to attend all these rallies and boosters and stuff, but no one ever told me how to sell the product. Only how to recruit new recruiters. It was explained to me that everyone buys the products for their own personal use, and that's all the sales that are needed.

Bullsh*t.

When I looked around Amway back then, I saw a tiny handful of people who were actually making a living at Amway. Interestingly, these were not the heavy recruiters. They were the product salesmen! They actually focused on selling the product. They would give catalogs to their neighbors, leave samples with their friends, etc. They sold the product full time. And didn't have much in the way of downline. They weren't millionaires, but some of them made perhaps $20-30k a year, which was $19-29k more than the recruit-frenzy "distributors" were.

So that's the secret of MLM: sell the product.

p.s. Of course, at only $20-30k a year full time, you would be better off pursuing a real sales job.

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Re: one24

Postby wserra » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:06 pm

webhick wrote:Now, compare this to a product like Ensure which has a minimum of 25% of 22 vitamins and minerals, contains 18% protein, and 12% potassium.


To be exact, here are the specs for Ensure Nutrition:
Vitamin A 25% • Vitamin C 50% • Calcium 30% • Iron 25% • Vitamin D 25% • Vitamin E 30% •Vitamin K 25% • Thiamin 25% • Riboflavin 25% • Niacin 25% • Vitamin B6 25% • Folate 25% • Vitamin B12 25% • Biotin 25% • Pantothenic Acid 25% • Phosphorus 25% • Iodine 25% • Magnesium 25% • Zinc 30% • Selenium 30% • Copper 25% • Manganese 25% • Chromium 25% • Molybdenum 25% • Chloride 8% • Choline 15%
Makes one24 look a little feeble by comparison, right?

And, if you give up the brand names but want to stay with the "natural" ingredients, check out GNC's Ultra Mega Green. Here is the label. The quantities of some of the nutrients are a little scary - but you can always cut down on the amount. The price: $25 for a one-month supply, obviously proportionately less for smaller doses. Less than half of one24, and you get much more.

Let's not kid ourselves here - you would never join these guys for the product. Lots of other stuff on the market beats it twelve ways to Sunday for less money. What's that leave? You join to recruit. What's that make one24 again?

Nice job, webhick.
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Re: one24

Postby wserra » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:14 pm

Brandybuck wrote:It was explained to me that everyone buys the products for their own personal use, and that's all the sales that are needed.


When a court decides whether a particular MLM is legit or a pyramid scheme, one of the factors it considers is the percent of income which comes from selling products vs. fees from new distributors - in other words, whether the business is sustained by product sales or recruiting. In making that analysis, only sales to non-distributors count, not sales to yourself or your downline. Webster v. Omnitrition Int'l, 79 F.3d 776 (9th Cir. 1996).
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Re: one24

Postby webhick » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:16 pm

JamesVincent wrote:The plan is explained as being designed for someone to build a slow build to retirement. Meaning if you work part time at it and sign one person a month in 24 months if everyone does the same thing, you should be making $100k /month residual.

What about selling product? Is this company selling the promise of earning easy money by selling the promise of earning easy money to someone else who will in turn sell the promise of earning easy money by...oh you get the point.

If you do absolutely nothing but pay your autoship and use the product then you have the potential to make $2400/ month plus silver bonus every month residual without doing anything.

Actually, according to the Gold compensation plan, if you do absolutely nothing but your autoship (you don't actually have to use the product, you could just let it sit), you will never see more than - at best - $100/month because everything beyond that goes to the person who grabs your unused green ticket. If I choose to only sell their product and not recruit - no matter how well I do at that or how much commission I have coming to me through the silvers, I'll never see more than that $100 per month because the company is so focused on recruiting that it will severely penalize you for not doing so.

I know I have been using it as a meal replacement for breakfast for the 2 weeks Ive had it and feel a little better and have had some weight loss. Could be from not eating the high sugar cereals and what not i was eating.

It may be because you're taking in more protein first thing in the morning instead of sugar. If you did a bowl of oatmeal in the morning instead, you'd be saying the same thing (also because fiber - something not found in Nutra-something - aids in weight loss).

Does the overall company seem well?

It's really looking like a pyramid scheme, so no.

Does it seem like the non-MLM MLM that it has been advertised as?

First of all, there's no such thing as a non-MLM MLM. If a compensation package says that you (at one level) make money by marketing, also recruit someone (at another level) to make money by marketing and you make some money off their marketing, then it's a MLM no matter what it says. That's the whole point of it. To have multiple levels of marketing.

Does the change in direction away from a typical suck in as many people as you can and live off the work of others MLMs make it different? Or is it a different and unique way to do the same thing at the end of the day?

This MLM is putting far more focus on recruiting and expanding the sales force than it is selling product. Last night when I looked (the site has been down for the better part of today), there is one page devoted to the product, and a multi-page (16ish?) PDF devoted to the compensation packages, of which only one directly connects your sales to your commission - all the others are based on the company wide sales which can easily be based almost entirely on the required $60 autoship for all the greens and silvers.

Ive looked at a lot of them over the years and have done several of them and had no joy while a lot of others made a mint. Most of them if you arent in at the beginning you get left behind and just slave your rear off to make your upline rich and you break even. Seemed to me with the way they did things it changed that up a little and evened it out a little.

This one isn't all that different. Someone has to be at the bottom of the pyramid and only the people who get in early make any money.

Let's look at that silver plan. Let's say there are 50,000 silvers in the company, you've got ten silvers and ten personal recruits (100 shares), and Bob (who got in early) has 40,000 silvers and 24 personal recruits (960,000 shares), and the sales for the month are $3,000,000 (that's all the silvers on autoship for $60/month). The 8% pool would consist of $240,000, making the share price $4.80. You get $480 and Bob gets $4,608,000. ::COUGH:: For the love of all things good and right in the world, someone please tell me I miscalculated that.

And also, if you think I am trying to advertise for myself, pull my article and send me a PM with what you think.

Actually, we don't allow referral links regardless of whether or not you're trying to advertise yourself. I'm now getting the impression that you want me to delete every post with a minor infraction and send a little note to the person letting them know...what I think. Well, I don't think this warrants a PM, but last night I, when I corrected your post, I was thinking "Oh, Project Runway finale. I hope Mondo wins."

I dont want to be out building up a company and have it shot down as the worst scam in 10 years.

Well, it's kind of run-of-the mill. Hohum pyramid scheme. Now, Madoff: that was a scam.
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Re: one24

Postby JamesVincent » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:58 am

Nice.
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One24

Postby wserra » Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:01 pm

JamesVincent wrote:
wserra wrote:OK, James, I'll bite. Which ones do you believe offer a realistic possibility of doing that?


Realistically, with a minimum of cash upfront or ongoing? One24 seems to be doing well for me and others right now.


OK, let's look at "One24".

First of all, I can't find a site that doesn't belong to an individual distributor - in other words, the company as a whole appears not to have a site. Every top google hit went to a distributor's site. If someone finds one, please post it. Otherwise, though, I seem to have no choice but to link to a distributor's site for reference. That sucks, and I won't do it. If in fact the company has no site, that itself is very suspicious. Whassamatta, want to be able to play the "Oh, that was the distributor's fault" game should the ceiling fall?

So anyway, take a look at a couple of promotional videos by the One24 owner, one Mark Seyforth (1, 2). (I know that these are individual distributor commercials as well, but I need to illustrate my points, and better linking to Youtube than to a distributor site.) The usual unfettered hype: unique opportunity, revolutionary company, yada yada. Make $100K per month! $200K per month!

Doing what? Seyforth only mentions one thing: signing people up. Nearly ten minutes of video blather, and no mention of a product. Draw a picture of a pyramid for Winky Dink, boys and girls.

So do they actually have a show product? It appears that they do. It's yet another superfood, something called "NatraBurst". (Since there are now about 10^8 "superfoods" out there, sooner or later some enterprising MLMer is sure to market the world's first "ultramegananofood". Signing up new recruits will still be more important.) Is that it - one thing? Yep, it is. Google if you want to see, since I won't link to a distributor's site. How much? Well the distributors' sites don't tell you - who cares, you join to recruit - but you can find it elsewhere. It's $80 for a one-month supply. For nearly $1K per year, it should be pretty bleedin' good, right?
Image
So: for $1,000 per year, you get 80% RDA of vitamin C, 50% of vitamin A, 25% of calcium, and minor or negligible amounts of everything else.

Something tells me that any business that depended on selling this stuff would go broke in a week. But we know that "One24" doesn't depend on product sales anyway.

Sorry, James, if you're still around. One24 sucks just as badly as any MLM which is not simply a gifting scheme. You say that you are doing well. I don't call people liars without proof, but I don't buy what they say in their self-interest without proof either. On paper, this ripoff has nothing whatsoever to recommend it. Therefore, if you were using your own alleged success to pitch this to me, I'd ask you to sign for me to get copies of your tax returns. You decline, that's the end.

So should it be for everyone.
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Re: one24

Postby webhick » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:26 pm

I merged Wes's thread with the other thread we had on One24.

BTW, the main site appears to be 124Online.com.
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Re: one24

Postby wserra » Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:50 pm

webhick wrote:I merged Wes's thread with the other thread we had on One24.


Thanks, webhick. I must be losing it. Didn't notice there was an "other thread".

BTW, the main site appears to be 124Online.com.


I don't think so. Open that page, you'll see (upper center-right) "Your One 24 PC Is", followed by a name that I'm not going to repeat - the url resolves to something else. If you see what I mean, maybe we ought to redact that link to avoid advertising the guy's business. If you don't see it, I'm not sure what's going on.

Weird, right? Only distributors' sites available.
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Re: one24

Postby webhick » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:15 pm

wserra wrote:I don't think so. Open that page, you'll see (upper center-right) "Your One 24 PC Is", followed by a name that I'm not going to repeat - the url resolves to something else. If you see what I mean, maybe we ought to redact that link to avoid advertising the guy's business. If you don't see it, I'm not sure what's going on.


You only see that if you've visited a distributors site first. This is because a lot (if not all) distributor sites are really subdomains of 124online.com. Clear all the 124online.com cookies first and you'll see the main site without any sign of a distributor. You'll know you've got it if you click on "Put me on the waiting list NOW" and it says "Thank you for your interest in participating in One24! To add your name to the Waiting List, please visit the personalized site of the person that referred you."
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Re: one24

Postby wserra » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:49 pm

webhick wrote:Clear all the 124online.com cookies first and you'll see the main site without any sign of a distributor.


On the money. Among the many things I like about Q: smart people showing me things I didn't know.
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Re: one24

Postby JamesVincent » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:49 pm

Sorry Wes had to other things going on to worry about. I actually didnt say I was doing well, I said I was doing about what I figured for the amount of time and effort Ive been putting into it. So far I have 2 people in my downline and made $18 something last month. As I said before Im not dropping a penny or spending much time at it until it breaks even so that will be another 5-6 months as I see it. I dont expect an MLM to suddenly change my world or anything like that and I dont go into things thinking that they will run themselves or thinking that the money will pour in.

I will tell you though. Since I started in one24 Ive met even more networkers and seen some of the things they do, both good and bad. Theres a reason networkers have the reputation they have and Ive seen them up close and personal. I dont agree or disagree with your opinion of MLMs as I have seen both sides of it. It is a fact that some people make very good money out of MLMs and some people never make a dime. Well see how one24 continues to work through it and grow. By the way, the reason I said something about it being different is theres a cap on how much income you can make through it. It doesnt matter when you sign up, the first ones in can still only make so much. probably in another 2 years the company will be making good money when people start hitting that cap. It looks like its a long-term deal, not an upfront get in and get out deal.
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Re: one24

Postby Judge Roy Bean » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:30 pm

JamesVincent wrote:... probably in another 2 years the company will be making good money when people start hitting that cap. It looks like its a long-term deal, not an upfront get in and get out deal.


Actually, the norm is to run until the bottom cannot scrape any more business from the saturated market then start another version with a different product.
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Re: one24

Postby JamesVincent » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:50 pm

Judge Roy Bean wrote:
JamesVincent wrote:... probably in another 2 years the company will be making good money when people start hitting that cap. It looks like its a long-term deal, not an upfront get in and get out deal.


Actually, the norm is to run until the bottom cannot scrape any more business from the saturated market then start another version with a different product.



And yet there are plenty of companies who have been around for many, many years and still exist and operate at a profit. And they have already released another product, a product for lactose intolerant people since the first product didnt take that into consideration. The burn out you describe is caused by an unregulated amount of growth which one24 addressed by limiting the amount of people who could be brought in at anytime through the use of the one person a month idea. Been there, done that before. There are also plans already for more and different products and international licensing that have already been put in motion.

Honestly, I am not Merril or any of the other idiots that post on here. I actually can have an intelligent conversation about ideas and things you might not agree with. Every argument you have can have a counter-argument. If the whole idea of a MLM bothers you that much, sorry. Ive seen both sides of the argument and argued both sides and at the end of the day it comes down to what you believe in. Are there bad ones out there? Sure are. Are there ones out there that work and people do well in? Sure are. Do certain people make more money than others? Sure do. Do some people never make anything out of the MLMs they enroll in? Sure do. Do some people become millionaires out of the MLMs they enroll in? Sure do, I know several of them. Talk to some of them on an almost daily basis.
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