Donna Marie Stancer - A New Age tax-avoiding Sovereign

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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby Burnaby49 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:04 am

ArthurWankspittle wrote:Hilfskreuzer Möwe - Ah, the good old days when Britannia waived the rules.
Burnaby49 wrote:You're losing me as a poster for a while in any case. Starting next week I'm off on a six week European jaunt.
Yes, we don't have the internet in Europe... :mrgreen:
Seriously, if you get nearby, we can try to arrange something.


If they have internet availability on Saturn it would be about as much use to me as the purported internet availability in Europe. I'm a technological dinosaur. I'm sending this from an old standard plain vanilla desktop. Ipods, Ipads, UpYoursPads, laptops, whatever, those things are all totally alien to me. I use Internet Explorer by choice (Webhick, please don't punish a sad, feeble old man for that pathetic confession). I don't even have a cellphone, I use a plugged-in-the-wall landline. When I go downtown on Skytrain (a great elevated rapid transit system in Vancouver) I'm enjoying the view out the window while everybody is poking on devices totally unknown to me. I even pay pay all my bills by regular mail.

So when I travel I'm cut off from Quatloos and eveything else on the web. When I want to communicate with my wife (she and I rarely travel together. She is in Israel at the moment and I won't see her for 2 months. I travel with a long-time beer swilling friend) I buy a phone card and talk to her from a payphone.
"Yes Burnaby49, I do in fact believe all process servers are peace officers. I've good reason to believe so." Robert Menard in his May 28, 2015 video "Process Servers".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeI-J2PhdGs

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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby wserra » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:50 pm

AndyK wrote:Perhaps Quatloos needs an additional forum dedicated to our northern wackadoodles?


I don't think we need a separate forum for 'em. We have clearance, Clarence. Roger, Roger. What's our vector, Victor?

And don't call me "Perhaps".

Ahem.

The more wackos, from either side of the border, the better. Threads about Canadian nutcases are welcome, if only because, if the U.S. has to deal with 'em, Canada should too. But I don't think we have enough Canadian posters to occupy a forum, and the U.S. regulars don't have the resources there that we have here.
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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby Hilfskreuzer Möwe » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:16 am

Burnaby49 wrote:
AndyK wrote:Never heard of the "hundred flower" issue but it sounds intriguing. Maybe it includes this guy?

http://deanclifford.info/

You're losing me as a poster for a while in any case. Starting next week I'm off on a six week European jaunt. So if any other Canadians are lurking in the background with issues to relate it's a good time to surface.


My reference to "Hundred Flowers" was to that phase of the Maoist Cultural Revolution where opposing and variant opinions were solicited from the masses. For a very short and discrete period. While the analogy is loose, I think something like that is happening in Canada with (to steal Meads v. Meads language) the OPCA communities. The long-time gurus are in disorder, and court responses have been emphatic. The following is thrashing around for a plausible leader and concept. I hope to have a chance to explore that at some point with forum members, to see their own opinions.

Please enjoy your holiday, Burnaby49. I'm a more than a touch envious. Again, betraying my interests, myself and my companion have a longstanding objective of some long, peculiar European excursions. To elaborate, I do not think many persons would go out of their way to visit concrete factories in Novorossiysk, but hey, we're a little weird... OK, a lot weird...

I am very familiar with Dean Clifford, and hope at some point to collate my observations of him and the "Freeman-on-the-Land" movement as a whole. I very much look forward to engage with the Quatloos community in what might, perhaps, be called intellectual archeology to line up the Freemen and Sovereign Citizens. My familiarity with the latter is restricted.

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That’s you and your crew, Mr. Hilfskreuzer. You’re just like a vampire, you must feel quite good about while the blood is dripping down from your lips onto the page or the typing, uhm keyboard there... [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNMoUnUiDqg at 11:25]

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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby Hilfskreuzer Möwe » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:28 am

AndyK wrote:Perhaps Quatloos needs an additional forum dedicated to our northern wackadoodles?


Maybe, though perhaps the jurisdiction should be a little broader. I think an arm of this infection is flowing through the British Commonwealth.

In my own mind I am still piecing together what I see, in Canada, and what progression(s) (if any) may be derived from that. With that proviso, my guestimate is the following.

1. Many schemes and concepts emerged in the U.S.A.

2. Some were transferred holus bolus to Canada. There they foundered.

3. Crude local adaptations arose. They too failed.

4. From this a series of increasingly different anti-state schemes arose, with the most "successful" (ie. as a parasite meme) being the "Freeman-on-the-Land" concept.

5. From Canada, the Freemen spread to commonwealth jurisdictions, chiefly the UK, but also Australia and New Zealand.

This is loose phylogeny, and I hope to develop it further. I feel very comfortable commenting on the situation in Canada. My capacity to evaluate what is going on in the UK is restricted, though as an initial threat assessment I think what has occurred is a shift in consumer market, but use of the same ideas. Frankly, I have a poor capacity to assess what is going on south of the Equator, and I would be so very glad to hear from someone who is wielding a bayonet in that theatre. I know there are things going on - I see the key terms and citations - but I do not have context.

It's all game of epidemiology, I suppose.

SMS Möwe
That’s you and your crew, Mr. Hilfskreuzer. You’re just like a vampire, you must feel quite good about while the blood is dripping down from your lips onto the page or the typing, uhm keyboard there... [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNMoUnUiDqg at 11:25]

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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby Hilfskreuzer Möwe » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:42 am

grixit wrote:


Are you familiar with Operation Unicorn?[/quote]


I was not, until you had mentioned this. I have not yet had an opportunity to pour through the timeline in exhausting detail, but it's sure fun to play with these things!

My favorite alternative history is in the Ostkrieg of WWII. I'll not belabor the point; everything is there. My preferred source for commentary is David Glantz, and if you have any interest in that theatre, send the fellow a request for the literature he self-publishes for nutjobs who are as obsessed as himself. His brief book on possible alternative progressions of that theatre are a wargamer's heaven.

[Explanation: Lt. Col. David Glantz was the U.S. military's top analyst of Soviet operational and strategic theory, running from the Soviet's historic experience. The guy writes like a scientist. (My original profession.) Glantz's commentary on anything is astonishing. If you have any interest on military history in this domain, look him up. He is The Man.]

On the subject of WWI, I have been reading texts published by Terence Zuber which argue that there really was no such thing as the Schlieffen Plan and the German's operations in early WWI are best simply assessed as a 'meeting action', then exploitation of opportunity. Zuber's got a lot to say that is plausible. It's interesting, approaching a century from the conflict, that we still have to ask so much about what happened on so basic a level.

SMS Möwe
That’s you and your crew, Mr. Hilfskreuzer. You’re just like a vampire, you must feel quite good about while the blood is dripping down from your lips onto the page or the typing, uhm keyboard there... [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNMoUnUiDqg at 11:25]

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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby wserra » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:23 am

Hilfskreuzer Möwe wrote:
AndyK wrote:Perhaps Quatloos needs an additional forum dedicated to our northern wackadoodles?


Maybe, though perhaps the jurisdiction should be a little broader. I think an arm of this infection is flowing through the British Commonwealth.


Fair enough. Let's see how it goes. If there's enough material being posted on Commonwealth mishugas, it would take five minutes to gather it up and use it to start a new forum.
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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby webhick » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:59 pm

I was thinking that we'd just start two subforums. Each called Non-US with one under TP and the other under Sovereign.

This would allow us to accommodate our friends from across the pond as well as the ones from the north and make the forum a little more inviting to non-US users in general.
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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby wserra » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:47 pm

OK, sounds good.
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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby AndyK » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:13 pm

When establishing the new forums (topics ?); don't forget the umlauts.
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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby Burnaby49 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:54 pm

webhick wrote:I was thinking that we'd just start two subforums. Each called Non-US with one under TP and the other under Sovereign.

This would allow us to accommodate our friends from across the pond as well as the ones from the north and make the forum a little more inviting to non-US users in general.


Do you want me to go back and try and find all the various New Topics that would fit into these forums? Most would be mine.

What about cross-border issues? There have been a few MLMs and such that have involved both Canada and the US.
"Yes Burnaby49, I do in fact believe all process servers are peace officers. I've good reason to believe so." Robert Menard in his May 28, 2015 video "Process Servers".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeI-J2PhdGs

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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby wserra » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:00 pm

Burnaby49 wrote:Do you want me to go back and try and find all the various New Topics that would fit into these forums? Most would be mine.


Sure. Thanks. Note 'em here and we'll move 'em.

What about cross-border issues? There have been a few MLMs and such that have involved both Canada and the US.


OP's choice of forum?
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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby Burnaby49 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:09 pm

Here you go, one-stop-shopping for at least most of the Canadian topics. Mostly mine but a few that aren't. I located these through two admittedly imperfect search methods, I went through my past postings and I went through the "Sovereign Citizen and Redemption Scam" and "Tax Protestors, Pure Trusts, and Other Stupid De-Tax Schemes & Scams" board lists. Since Wankspittle is the only other frequent non-American poster that I can recall I also went through his/her posts and found a few British related ones that Wankspittle had started. Perhaps Wankspittle can add some other topics to this list also. I even managed to get Hilfskreuzer Möwe's first topic posting!

My search of my own postings could only locate 491 of my 647 total. I don't know where the missing 156 went or what they related to. Maybe they were "unpersoned" in the great purge of 2012.

I didn't go back in the two forums past about mid 2011 so I may have missed something buried in the older stuff.


A New Age Sovereign
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=9136

The Misbegotten Fruits of the Internet
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=9221

Another Canadian sovereign convicted
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=9027

They make 'em dumb in Canada too
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5876

More Gibberish from Canadian Tax Dodgers
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9129

A Tax Court Judge Goes Ballistic
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9112

It's spreading to the UK
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=8350

The Stupidity Spreads to the U.K.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6936&start=20

British press coverage of 'freemen'
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=7853

Porisky Strikes Again!
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8968

Canadian tax evaders caught in the Matrix!
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9055

This time it's an assassinated businessman's estate
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8320

More Poriskyites bite the dust!
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8317

Toronto Sun column on Porisky
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8307

Speedy Justice - Canadian Style
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8314

Another Canadian Sovereign (Keith David Lawson)
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8223

Stewart v. Canada
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8120

More Sovereign nonsense tried in Canada
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=8986

The infection is heading north!
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7827

Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=8805

A Canadian Sovereign gets bailed out by his mom
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8841

Another Canadian Sovereign
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8684

The Aquatic Dominion of Canada
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8400

Private Sector Act dot Com
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=9258
"Yes Burnaby49, I do in fact believe all process servers are peace officers. I've good reason to believe so." Robert Menard in his May 28, 2015 video "Process Servers".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeI-J2PhdGs

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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby wserra » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:37 pm

Thanks for locating those, Burnaby. I created per webhick's idea "Non-U.S." sub-forums under both the TP and Sov forums, and moved the threads you located to the appropriate one.
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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby Burnaby49 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:41 am

Looks good. The one problem I have with the classification of Canadian cases is the same one I have with American cases. Where does tax end and sovereign start? Most of my tax cases have some sovereign component. In some it is obvious that the sovereign gibberish is only being used to rationalize tax evasion and the fools involved really don't follow to any sovereign philosophy. This covers the Porisky followers, none of whom seem to me to be real sovereign believers. But some others seem to be true believers who's tax protester positions are only one component of a larger overall life-view. Tax or sovereign? As a tax guy I tend to go with tax.

Probably not really an issue. With the relatively few postings in your new non-US forums it isn't much of a chore to check out both.
"Yes Burnaby49, I do in fact believe all process servers are peace officers. I've good reason to believe so." Robert Menard in his May 28, 2015 video "Process Servers".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeI-J2PhdGs

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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby Chados » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:12 am

I like the split because it lets me more easily find those outstanding Canadian decisions you all post. Sad that our judges usually don't write like that, though one of our locals would give Rooke A.C.J. a run for his money. I always enjoy reading his orders.

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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby grixit » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:43 am

Well done, administrators!
I voted for Hillary, and i didn't even get a stupid tshirt!

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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby grixit » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:48 am

Hilfskreuzer Möwe wrote:
grixit wrote:
Are you familiar with Operation Unicorn?



I was not, until you had mentioned this. I have not yet had an opportunity to pour through the timeline in exhausting detail, but it's sure fun to play with these things!

[/quote]

Exhausting detail is correct. Each chapter covers a single day or less, hour by hour. The material is posted in several forums, but this is the best : http://alternatehistoryfictory.yuku.com. It's full of knowledgeble history buffs offering intelligent critique.

So far, i believe your ship is still afloat. Feel free to ask about it.
I voted for Hillary, and i didn't even get a stupid tshirt!

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Re: A New Age Sovereign

Postby wserra » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:11 am

Burnaby49 wrote:The one problem I have with the classification of Canadian cases is the same one I have with American cases. Where does tax end and sovereign start?


Agreed. I didn't do any classifying. I left the threads where the OP had put them, and just moved them to the sub-forum.

AFAIR, we've never had any discussion about thread placement. Personally, I've done what Burnaby suggests: if there is an anti-tax element to the nonsense, it goes in the tax forum. If not, the Sovrun.

BTW, it occurred to me that I had started a thread about Menard a couple of years ago when I ran across him somewhere, so I moved that here too.
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Re: Donna Marie Stancer- A New Age tax-avoiding Sovereign

Postby Burnaby49 » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:52 pm

I've moved this discussion and retitled it. When I started the discussion back in early 2013 I thought it was essentially a Canadian sovereign issue. However developments have shown it to be, at heart, a tax evasion issue. Stancer is now on trial for the tax evasion scheme she promoted that is reported in this discussion. I'll update with trial information later.
"Yes Burnaby49, I do in fact believe all process servers are peace officers. I've good reason to believe so." Robert Menard in his May 28, 2015 video "Process Servers".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeI-J2PhdGs

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Re: Donna Marie Stancer - A New Age tax-avoiding Sovereign

Postby Burnaby49 » Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:50 am

Donna Marie's trial has started and, at this point, we have two reports on it;

http://www.kelownanow.com/watercooler/n ... e_Expenses

http://globalnews.ca/news/2089498/alleg ... l-charges/

The basis for the charges is;

Donna Marie Stancer and her business partner Deanna Lynn LaValley were charged with filing false income tax returns between 2010 and 2012 by claiming $191 million in false expenses. The two Vernon women owned the tax preparation firm DeMara Consulting Inc., before it was shut down after a 2012 raid by the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA).


The news reports said;

Stancer said the scheme was allegedly taught to her by a number of associates at meetings she attended in Alberta. The 62-year-old detailed how she was taught “how to use T5s and T5008s, and how to use the criminal code”.

In front of the jury of seven women and five men, Stancer said she checked the CRA website for warnings, and then read all the bulletins on the website to find information about the use of T5, T5A, and T5008 forms.

“We had spent quite a bit of time talking to people about it, people who had used it in the past,” explained Stancer.


The T5A is an information slip sent from financial institutions such as banks and mutual funds to taxpayers showing their investment income for the year. It is supposed to be included as part of the filed income tax return. The T5008 is;

The T 5008 is essentially a summary of transactions done by you over the year and reported to CRA by the broker. This is for your information only but you do have to record all the transactions in schedule 3.

This is what CRA's website says about the T5008:

Completing your income tax return

This information slip does not have to be attached to your return, but you have to keep it if CRA wishes to see it.

This information slip reports the amount paid or credited to you for securities you disposed of or redeemed during the year indicated. These transactions may be on account of income or capital. For more information see Bulletin IT-479, Transactions in Securities. ...


You can take a look at the T5 and T5008 here;

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/t5/t5-14b.pdf

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/t5008/t5008-14b.pdf

Government tax reporting forms! Exciting stuff indeed!

I have to admit ignorance as to how this scheme is supposed to work. I've not heard details of a tax evasion method using these documents. The news article gives this vague description;

DeMara Consulting opened on January 3rd, 2011 and closed its doors in September 2013 following the raid conducted by the CRA. During that time, the company would help members file the Remedy returns for a charge starting at $400. The very complicated process involved taking a person’s income, filing for a business licence, claiming debts into capital losses, and claiming personal expenses as business expenses. The end result would be to reduce or eliminate taxes owing to the government.


But the judge wan't allowing a defense based on any possible interpretation that the scheme was legitimate;

But the Remedy was not legal, and the $191,145,031 in false expense claims for at least 240 clients and resulting refunds were not legal either. Justice Allison Beames made this point very clear to the jury, so they would not get confused during the testimony.
“There’s no legitimacy to the Remedy,” Beames said directly to the 12 person jury. “It was not a legal method for a tax return. It was an inappropriate way to file.”


Unfortunately it is a jury trial which means that there will be no written decision which might explain how their scheme was supposed to work. A trial by judge would probably have resulted in a judgment but all we'll get from a jury is guilty or not guilty.

I can't see how they could find her guilty, she was only trying to help people;

KELOWNA – A BC Supreme Court trial is underway for two Okanagan women accused of trying to bilk the Canada Revenue Agency out of almost $10 million.

Donna Marie Stancer and Deanna Lynn Lavalley are facing fraud and tax evasion charges.

It’s alleged they tried to claim false capital and business losses of more than $191 million to benefit themselves and 220 clients of their now closed Vernon tax preparation company, DeMara Consulting.

The pair called their tax reduction plan The Remedy.

Testifying in her own defence Thursday, Stancer told the judge and jury: “I was convinced it was a legitimate way to file income tax. I wanted to help other people. There seemed to be a lot of people who needed assistance.”


I'll bet their clients didn't know that they "needed asistance" until Donna Marie offered it for a fee. If you read the first few posts in this discussion Stancer is not as innocent and gullible as she seems to be portraying herself at trial. As I said in an earlier post;

Our holistic sovereign tax evader has finally been charged. She, and her partner, are charged with filing false income tax returns on behalf of an unspecified number of clients that the Canada Revenue Agency claims included $191 million in false expenses. It appears their scheme was a bust with only $53 thousand of the claimed $10 Million in refunds paid out. The article describing all this (below) doesn't explain the point I find most interesting; how the claimed expenses would have triggered refunds of only 5% of the expense amounts. Only thing I can think of is that her clients claimed expenses well in excess of their reported income. Stupid if correct since we don't have your OID system (or whatever it is you Americans have, never figured it out, something to do with interest) that allows refunds in excess of taxes actually paid. All that going into negative territory does is get the CRA interested in you.

This isn't a first time for Stancer. She already has a conviction on exactly the same offense back in 1989 which our "give everybody a second chance" government pardoned. She must have taken that as an endorsement of her scam.
"Yes Burnaby49, I do in fact believe all process servers are peace officers. I've good reason to believe so." Robert Menard in his May 28, 2015 video "Process Servers".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeI-J2PhdGs


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