Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

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Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby NYGman » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:36 am

Listing to NPR this morning while getting ready for work, and heard about this: http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2 ... y-lobby-sc

Looks like there may be more to this antiquities deal than meets the eye. Not only are these looted articles, but it looks like Hobby Lobby got some bogus receipts to "enhance" tax deductions.

While they may get away with pleading ignorance towards the smuggling, I would be interested to see how they justify tax fraud. When you are planning on doing something shady, "evade tax" you probably should not do it with looted antiquities. I see big trouble ahead. The head of the company was directly involved here.
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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby noblepa » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:25 pm

But, but, but, he's a good Christian. The Supreme Court said so. Therefore the rules don't apply to him if they go against his religious faith.

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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby notorial dissent » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:01 pm

NYGman wrote:Listing to NPR this morning while getting ready for work, and heard about this: http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2 ... y-lobby-sc

Looks like there may be more to this antiquities deal than meets the eye. Not only are these looted articles, but it looks like Hobby Lobby got some bogus receipts to "enhance" tax deductions.

While they may get away with pleading ignorance towards the smuggling, I would be interested to see how they justify tax fraud. When you are planning on doing something shady, "evade tax" you probably should not do it with looted antiquities. I see big trouble ahead. The head of the company was directly involved here.

Since the head(s) of the company are essentially the company in this case, and considering what has been going on, if I read the articles right there is more damage coming. I would suspect at this point the illegal antiquities are just the tip of it. I would suspect that the company itself will eventually be implicated as part of the antiquities scam and the hiding and rearranging of funds to pull all this off, and it could get real nasty after that. I think the phrase commingling of funds will come it to it.
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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby noblepa » Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:07 pm

notorial dissent wrote:
NYGman wrote:Listing to NPR this morning while getting ready for work, and heard about this: http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2 ... y-lobby-sc

Looks like there may be more to this antiquities deal than meets the eye. Not only are these looted articles, but it looks like Hobby Lobby got some bogus receipts to "enhance" tax deductions.

While they may get away with pleading ignorance towards the smuggling, I would be interested to see how they justify tax fraud. When you are planning on doing something shady, "evade tax" you probably should not do it with looted antiquities. I see big trouble ahead. The head of the company was directly involved here.

Since the head(s) of the company are essentially the company in this case, and considering what has been going on, if I read the articles right there is more damage coming. I would suspect at this point the illegal antiquities are just the tip of it. I would suspect that the company itself will eventually be implicated as part of the antiquities scam and the hiding and rearranging of funds to pull all this off, and it could get real nasty after that. I think the phrase commingling of funds will come it to it.


True. If he were using Hobby Lobby, Inc. funds to buy antiques for his personal collection, even if the purchases were above board and legal, he could be in big trouble with the IRS. Wouldn't the amounts paid be considered taxable income to him, personally?

Then there's the possibility of defrauding other stockholders. I know that Hobby Lobby is a family owned business, but it is still a corporation, although it is probably a closely held company, meaning it has a limited number of stockholders and is not traded on any public exchange. If he made personal purchases with company money, that would dilute the value of the other stockholders' equity. I believe that would be fraud.

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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby NYGman » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:08 pm

I am sure this will all be chalked up as some left wing ploy to bring down Hobby Lobby for it's pro-religious views on many controversial social issues, but these (religion and politics) aspects should not be discussed here. I do not believe this has any political motives, so let's refrain from those discussions, except to say this has nothing to do with the companies policies or owners beliefs. This is tax fraud, amongst probably a whole lot more. This isn't a targeted persecution of the richeous, but prosection of a common tax fraudster, taking receipts to minimize tax.

Had to say that because I see this argument coming.
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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby NYGman » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:09 pm

NYGman wrote:I am sure this will all be chalked up as some left wing ploy to bring down Hobby Lobby for it's pro-religious views on many controversial social issues, but these (religion and politics) aspects should not be discussed here. I do not believe this has any political motives, so let's refrain from those discussions, except to say this has nothing to do with the companies policies or owners beliefs. This is tax fraud, amongst probably a whole lot more. This isn't a targeted persecution of the richeous, but prosection of a common tax fraudster, faking receipts to minimize tax.

Had to say that because I see this argument coming.
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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby The Observer » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:41 pm

NYGman wrote:I am sure this will all be chalked up as some left wing ploy to bring down Hobby Lobby for it's pro-religious views on many controversial social issues, but these (religion and politics) aspects should not be discussed here. I do not believe this has any political motives, so let's refrain from those discussions, except to say this has nothing to do with the companies policies or owners beliefs. This is tax fraud, amongst probably a whole lot more. This isn't a targeted persecution of the richeous, but prosection of a common tax fraudster, taking receipts to minimize tax.

Had to say that because I see this argument coming.


Yes, but a difficult issue to overlook due to the fact that the owner has put himself out on the hypocritical limb by holding out to be a strict observer of his religious beliefs. "Thou shalt not steal" and "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" comes to mind quickly. So I think it is not a problem as long as the comments focus on the owner's hypocrisy and not on Christianity in general.
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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby Gregg » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:52 am

noblepa wrote:But, but, but, he's a good Christian. The Supreme Court said so. Therefore the rules don't apply to him if they go against his religious faith.


Please remember and respect out policy regarding posts about politics or religion. I'm leaving this, but it looks close to the line from between the gun slits here in the Well Armed Bunker Complex
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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby noblepa » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:34 am

Gregg wrote:
noblepa wrote:But, but, but, he's a good Christian. The Supreme Court said so. Therefore the rules don't apply to him if they go against his religious faith.


Please remember and respect out policy regarding posts about politics or religion. I'm leaving this, but it looks close to the line from between the gun slits here in the Well Armed Bunker Complex


I apologize if I crossed the line.. It was intended as a joke, not as a critique of his religious views. Its just that the whole situation seemed so hypocritical.

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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby bmxninja357 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:46 am

Gregg wrote: Bunker Complex


I kinda thought you had a bunker complex. Well, an archie bunker complex at any rate....

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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby Burnaby49 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:14 am

I keep saying this but one day, one day ninja, I'll get administrative approval to ban you for comments like that. I could, as a moderator, ban you temporarily but libertarian first amendment fanatics like wserra would just step in and reverse me. But one day, one day, when wes is sleeping . . . . .
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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby Gregg » Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:49 pm

I dunno, I kind of deserve some of it. I am an admitted arrogant son of a bitch.
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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby Number Six » Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:12 am

I'm just waiting for the day when a scammer's ties to Confucius', Plato's or Socrates' belief systems are off limits to slams against how they may use their religions as cover for fraud.

There is no telling where an investigation like this may lead and I hope they are pursued, but 20 million or so is not huge in the area of IRS investigations. Frank DiPascali in the Madoff scam ended up being charged for tax evasion among other things, though the "boss" always paid his taxes on supposed investment income.
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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby The Observer » Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:07 pm

Number Six wrote:There is no telling where an investigation like this may lead and I hope they are pursued, but 20 million or so is not huge in the area of IRS investigations.


What makes you say that? Why would the IRS consider underreporting of $20 million in income not "huge?" What evidence do you have that proves that statement?
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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby LaVidaRoja » Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:01 pm

This is sufficiently high profile that the IRS will likely want to pursue it. Of course, Justice could quietly offer a plea deal and no one would ever know what all happened.
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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby AndyK » Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:37 pm

As to the pursuit, there are at least three sides to this coin.

First is the simple failure to report and/or pay taxes (evasively or not). That is a civil (not as in polite) matter which follows the normal path of IRS investigation, audit, a series of letters and notices, and finally a visit to Tax Court.

However, all of the above can be totally derailed if option the second comes into play: The case and investigation gets referred to IRS' Criminal Tax Division. Should there be findings of violations of any of the criminal statutes, they are forwarded to the Department of Justice with a recommendation for prosecution. DoJ reviews the material and makes the determination whether to prosecute or not. Should this be the path the investigation follows, $20,000,000 plus high-profile taxpayers would lean in the direction of prosecution. However, prosecution is discretionary and subject to factors such as workload, precedence, and subtle outside influences from heavily-donated politicians.

Finally, we come to the third side of the coin: the civil and criminal aspects of the smuggling itself.

Needless to say, if the government decides to pursue all potential charges, the family will be spending the next few years in and out of various courtrooms.
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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby Burnaby49 » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:01 pm

Canada has almost exactly the same process.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeI-J2PhdGs

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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby Number Six » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:34 am

OK, definitely a real target; I must have been reviewing bigger frauds and thought the HL alleged fraud would have been larger.
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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby NYGman » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:41 am

The whole thing stinks, this is going to be a huge problem for them. Let's see how it plays out. I am sure they are completely ignorant to the fact that anything they did was wrong. Then again, if you don't mind a little looting of artifacts, what's a little tax evasion on top. We shall hear how they never intended to buy looted goods and the tax issue was an honest mistake, or done by others without the family knowledge.

This is one to watch, but I do fear claims of religious persecution will creep in, and I really don't think it relevant.
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Re: Hobby Lobby tax evasion?

Postby ASITStands » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:37 pm

interesting . . .

Does the fact Hobby Lobby settled with the U.S. Government make any difference?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-men-who-trade-isis-loot-1502017200

Last month, Oklahoma City-based arts-and-crafts retailer Hobby Lobby settled claims with the U.S. government by paying a $3 million fine and surrendering artifacts believed stolen in 2010 and smuggled from Iraq. In response to the claims, which are related to allegations of trading items looted prior to the emergence of ISIS, Hobby Lobby said it would surrender the artifacts, pay the fine and adopt new procedures for buying cultural property.


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