Liberty Dollar, Part 3

[Demosthenes]

2. Legal update from Bernard

LEGAL UPDATE: I regret to inform you that our Motion to un-seal the secret documents that the government provided to the US District Court in Asheville and cancel the six month stay has been denied. To make matters worse, the devious little G-boys submitted a sealed request for a SIX-MONTH extension for any action regarding their seizure… and that was granted by the same government friendly court!

It is now obvious that the government has NO case and is trying hard to find something to pin on me… I think that will be impossible… 1) As I did not retire after 25 years at the Royal Hawaiian Mint to become a federal criminal… 2) I know that I am not guilty of violating Section 486 or any of the other counterfeit sections. 3) The Search and Seizure Warrants did not cover the owners of the property seized. 4) I have had NO intention to counterfeit the shitty US coinage! 5) I always rely on the good advice of legal counsel.

The G-boys thought they were raiding a corporation… only to find out that they raided a sole proprietor and now they will have to pay for my defense because I don't have any money. So their game plan is to drive the Liberty Dollar out of business. But that is just not happening… thanks to you and the very engaging silver market. If you have not made a donation… this is a wonderful time to help. Or help yourself by contributing to the Contingency Club.

The current extension of predatory oppression against the Liberty Dollar expires on June 20, 2009 - almost three years after the US Mint posted their warning. Stay tuned for the next update, as the "value vs. fiat currency battle" continues.

The bottom lines is there has never been a "Cease and Desist Order". By G-boys own actions it is obvious they do not want to take the Liberty Dollar to court. So I see this latest development as an endorsement to get as much silver in the hands of the
people as possible. We have open season for another 6 months at least as I would not surprised to see another extension!

Meanwhile, Robert Stientjes the attorney working to recover the seized property, send a letter to the Claimants he represents. Click here for his remarks that are well worth reading by everyone who wish to have their property returned: http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/ ... imants.pdf

[Demosthenes]

From
http://www.rewardtax.com/s-p-law-firm/a ... -stientjes

Rob Stientjes represents clients exclusively before the Internal Revenue Service. He uses his experience and expertise as both a former IRS attorney and a former attorney-advisor at the U.S. Tax Court to navigate cases through the Tax Whistleblower Reward Program to achieve maximum results for his clients.

While employed as an attorney-advisor at the U.S. Tax Court and later as an IRS attorney, Mr. Stientjes acquired vast knowledge in the tax litigation process and in IRS administrative procedure. At IRS, he became familiar with internal IRS policies and customs used in conducting audits and preparing administrative files. He therefore has the ability to create a package for submission under the Tax Whistleblower Reward Program that mirrors an internal IRS administrative file and includes all documents that would be assembled as part of an IRS audit. His work experience and educational background (having obtained an LL.M., Masters of Tax, from The Georgetown University Law Center) make him exceptionally well-versed in the area of tax law.

Employment History: Upon obtaining his law license, Mr. Stientjes was employed as attorney-advisor to the Chief Judge of the U.S. Tax Court in Washington, D.C. He then worked as a Senior Attorney for the Office of Chief Counsel to the IRS. Before becoming a member of the S & P Law Firm, LLC, he was an associate in the tax department for Bryan Cave LLP, one of the largest law firms in the nation, where he was involved in complex tax litigation for numerous Fortune 500 companies.

His background enables him to recognize and understand complex tax planning, shelters, and schemes designed to avoid detection by the IRS. In addition, he has extensive experience in litigating those tax matters from the standpoint of the judiciary, the Government, and private parties. In 2006, when the law creating the Tax Whistleblower Reward Program came into being, he and his law partner, Thomas C. Pliske, created the Stientjes & Pliske, LLC law firm for the purpose of representing clients before the IRS on a nationwide basis. He and his law partner have now created the S & P Law Firm, LLC exclusively to work with individuals in the Tax Whistleblower Reward Program. One hundred percent of his time is devoted to tax whistleblower matters and tax cases involving the IRS.

[Demosthenes]

I am not in the law industry, but even I have heard of Bryan Cave LLP.

I find it fun / ironic that the lawyer's practice specializes in finking-for-profit on people who cheat on their taxes.

[notorial dissent]

Is it my imagination, or is Bernie beginning to sound just a wee bit shrill and nervous, like maybe he isn’t believing his own PR anymore.

I am kind of surprised that the gov’t hasn’t filed charges yet, but then they may just be getting all the little details ironed out or else don’t want to tip off the rest of the ones they are going to be going after.

Either way, I do think Bernie is getting shrill.

[.]

getting shrill

In spite of smoking apparently copious amounts of the evil weed.

Between silver cratering and the feds slowly but surely zeroing in on him, perhaps we'll soon read of a new Church of the 8-ball.

[Demosthenes]

New newsletter.

1st Anniversary of the FBI Raid on the Liberty Dollar

Table of Contents:

1. From the CEO's Desk: Synopsis of the Impact of the FBI Raid on Liberty Dollar and our customers
2. Success Story - New Associate Fernanda Powers
3. A Plug for Sales

1) From the CEO's Desk: Synopsis of the Impact of the FBI Raid on Liberty Dollar and our customers

Today is the 1st anniversary of the Liberty Dollar® raid by the FBI. Much has happened in a year and this newsletter provides a brief synopsis of impact of the FBI raid on Liberty Dollar and on our customers.

November 14, 2007: The FBI initiated simultaneous raids in four locations: 1) Sunshine Mint in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, where all the silver backing the eLDs as well as the gold and silver backing the paper Liberty Dollar Warehouse Receipts were located. 2) Kevin Innes, RCO in Asheville, North Carolina, where the FBI seized 100 of his copper Ron Paul Dollars and his George Carlin tape. What? Is the George Carlin tape some form of evidence? 3) Verify First Technologies in Paso Robles who printed the warehouse receipts lost all receipts. 4) Liberty Dollar Fulfillment Office in Evansville, Indiana, lost all the computers, boxes of files and records, approximately 24,000 Ron Paul copper Liberty Dollars and all the gold, silver, and platinum Liberty Dollars in a variety of sizes and denominations. (I say approximately because all the records were seized and the FBI did not leave a detailed inventory of the seizure.)

Liberty Dollar was definitely in growth mode just prior to the raid. Business was going "gang busters." Ron Paul gold, silver, and copper issues were in hot demand. The half-ounce silver Peace Dollar was available and orders were pouring in. Liberty Dollar Fulfillment Center had added seven people to meet the growing demand.

Now let's take a look at who was affected by the actions of our government agents. The eLD or the digital Liberty Dollar system had 4,795 user accounts holding a total of 111,723 ounces of silver. That means 4,795 people had their private silver seized from them because they chose to store silver with Shelter Systems, LLC. If you are reading this, most likely you are one of those who had your property seized by the FBI.

Let's look further. The last available audit of the warehouse, which included an accounting of physical Silver Liberties backing the paper Liberty Dollar Silver Certificates, shows the following facts:

1) Ten dollar, base Liberty Dollar Silver Certificates currently in circulation representing 71,427.1 troy oz. of silver. This breaks down into 294,322 Liberty Dollar Silver Certificates in circulation with a combination of $10, $5, and $1 certificates. If each Silver Certificate were held by individual people, potentially 294,322 people are affected by the government theft of their private property. If you haven't seen a Liberty Dollar Silver Certificate compared to U.S. paper currency, here is your chance.

Truthfully we don't know how many people are holding Liberty Dollar Certificates, but it is thousands of innocent people.

2) Twenty dollar, base Silver Certificates in circulation at the time of the raid represented 15,600 troy oz. for 70,000 individual certificates representing a combination of $20, $10, $5, and $1 certificates. So potentially another 70,000 people are impacted by the unwarranted and unjust government action.

3) Ninety-six dollar, old Certificates were in circulation representing 96 troy oz. of gold Liberty Dollars.

Many of you had orders outstanding for the Peace Dollars in either the copper or the silver form that were scheduled to be shipped directly from the mint to you. I personally ordered 800 ounces of the $10 Peace Dollars. I had been notified that they shipped via UPS Ground several days before the FBI raid, and they were scheduled to be delivered to me the day of the raid. I watched the UPS website and saw the status of the package change from "Out for Delivery to customer" to "Recalled by Shipper." Unfortunately, I never received the package. Big Brother's tentacles run deep, even into UPS's shipping system to recall packages shipped before the warrant was even signed. But this isn't about me; it's about clearing the air around the Liberty Dollar and the raid and getting clear the legal trail that leads us to where we are right now. This is about what happened and what's being done about this injustice. So far we have looked at what happened.

Liberty Dollar Associates and RCO's tend to be in one of several places regarding the raid:

1) One category of victim flat out believes that Liberty Dollar was never raided and that we staged the whole thing and ran off with your money. Those of you who believe this should contact Thomas R. Ascik, Assistant U.S. Attorney by calling his number 828-271-4661. Mr. Ascik's name and signature are on every document filed by the Department of Justice so far in the Asheville Division of the United States District Court for the Western District of North Carolina.

2) The second category believes that the raid definitely happened, and since the Liberty Dollar is still around in some shape or form, then Liberty Dollar should make good on their order either in the form of a refund from current revenue or by actually filling the order with currently produced Liberty Dollars. If you think that through you should realize that is not possible because we exist on a shoestring. The government's strategy seems to be to starve the Liberty Dollar to death. This has been a near event several times during the last year. We continue to make progress; unfortunately, the thousands of dollars required to make everyone whole do not exist.

3) The final category of victims believes firmly that if we somehow manage to change the money, we could actually change the world. They suffered losses of personal private property as a result of the FBI's actions. They believe the government actions were wrong and that we the people have a right to contract without the threat of force from our government. Further, we believe we have a right pay for what we want with what we choose and that the time for this monetary battle is now!

Regardless of where you are in these three categories, everyone wants their property back. Some have the means to wait it out. For others, the confiscated Liberty Dollars represent their entire retirement savings, and they need their property back now!

What is being done to engage the government legally and lawfully to get every single Liberty Dollar returned?

Just prior to the FBI raid on the Liberty Dollar, Bernard von NotHaus initiated a Declaratory Judgment lawsuit that named the U.S. Treasury, US Department of Justice, and the U.S. Mint. Filed in the US District Court in Evansville, Indiana, it specifically requested that the US Mint should stop all activities designed to scare people away from the Liberty Dollar because the Liberty Dollar was not breaking any laws. This would have ended the argument by adjudication simply and cleanly. Either we are operating legally or not. Let a judge decide and be finished with it. The government didn't want to follow that process to truth and justice. They decided that a raid and seizure was in their best interests.

After the raid Bernard proceeded to attempt to initiate a class action lawsuit in Idaho where Sunshine Mint had been holding all the Liberty Dollars that backed both the eLibertyDollars and the Silver Certificates on behalf of Shelter Systems, LLC. Many of you signed up for the class action lawsuit. This was an ill-fated attempt at justice hamstrung from the beginning by a scoundrel of an attorney who walked away with thousands of dollars in legal fees and never did a damn thing!

Finally, Bernard created the Contingency Club and retained Robert Stientjes, the attorney who now represents a core group of people who are demanding the return of their property. Stientjes filed a "Motion for Return of Property" on behalf of Shelter Systems, LLC and twelve additional plaintiffs. This is no longer a class action lawsuit. Shelter Systems, LLC is the company that held all the silver backing the Silver Certificates and the eLibertyDollars. When the matter of Liberty Dollar's legality is resolved, a receiver will manage the return of the silver to all holders of Silver Certificates and eLD's. The return of the property taken from the Evansville office is a separate legal action and should proceed quickly after we win back the silver seized from the warehouse.

The government filed a sealed civil forfeiture action against the Liberty Dollar's seized property on May 29, 2008. The Court granted a stay in the case, essentially allowing the government an additional six months to find evidence they haven't yet found after two years of investigation. It is clear they do not want the people to scrutinize their actions.

October 21, 2008: The magistrate judge granted the government another six-month stay, again via a sealed motion. We are faced with a waiting game very similar to the sieges in the wars throughout history. We must thrive in the face of suppression by the enemy.

Our mission is to change the money because by changing the money, we change the world! Our success does not rely on our "knowledge." All the books about the Fed or money system don't make one ounce of difference. The only thing that matters is our unwavering stand for the future that we envision: "A world where money has known value; and people do not sell out their power to governments or politicians for empty inflationary promises made today and paid for with the labor of generations of hardworking men and women."

In spite of all that the government has taken from us and their obvious attempts to starve the Liberty Dollar out of business, we are still here and we are not afraid!

The Liberty Dollar and all the people who have participated and partnered with us, in my experience, stand for good judgment, open-mindedness, inclusiveness, long-term thinking, and an unshakable commitment to authentic communication, empowerment, innovation and collaboration. The world needs the Liberty Dollar and what it stands for. I for one am in the fight for the long term. I am an American and my government answers to me.

2) Success Story - New Associate Fernanda Powers

I asked you to send in your Liberty Dollar success stories and you have. Fernanda Powers is an example of an American who has taken a stand. A stand for a private silver backed currency in her community. Thank you Fernanda for being courageous, having conversations about money and community as you spend Liberty Dollars during your day. Here is the story she sent in:

You said you wanted to hear our success stories, so here is my experience with spending $15.00 in Liberty Dollars today. A friend of mine ordered ten pounds of lamb bones from a local butcher for me and today I finally picked them up from her. It turned out all I had to pay with were my Liberty Dollars, but not enough FRN cash. I figured she'd be warm to the idea of Liberty Dollars, so I asked her what she thought of using a local currency (as a general question). She said she liked the idea but that you'd need a lot of people involved to make it work. I then told her a bit about the Liberty Dollar, as this private silver-backed currency I'm playing around with. She said "Now that intrigues me even more." So I told her a bit more, then offered a $10 piece to pay for my lamb bones. She said: "Well, I guess the best way to get started is to... get started," and she took it.

Later tonight I went out for dinner in my small town for a planned ladies' night out. The cost of the evening was $8.50, so I planned to pay $5.00 in ALD and $3.50 in FRN (but I made sure I had the full amount in FRNs). I gave my money to the lady who was collecting the money, and told her a bit about the Liberty Dollar. She said I should ask Judy, the restaurant owner, if she'd take it, so I took my money to her and showed her the $5.00 ALD. I started to explain a bit what it was and she just took it from me and put it in her pocket, so I took that as a yes, then went back to the lady collecting the money and gave her my remaining FRNs, saying Judy had accepted it.

Anyway, these are my first two experiences. Nothing earth shattering, but encouraging to me. I will see if I can spend my remaining 70 ALDs (from the initial special offer) while I'm waiting for the new ALDs from the Associate package to arrive."

3) A plug for Sales

Finally an obvious plug for business. Your generous purchases are what have kept us going and keep us going. We have several hundred of the Peace Dollar Errors remaining and less than 100 of the Hallmarked and Numbered editions of the same Peace Dollar errors. We have less than 20 each of the Tenth Anniversary Set with four silver liberties First Day of Issue and Limited Numbered Edition.

The new brochures at the $50 base are on sale now at our cost of 5 cents each. Let's blast them out and spread them around as you spend Liberty Dollars. We are offering the Merchant Counter Mats at a great price and these are great as we head towards a move down to the $20 base.

Thanks again for your support and your courage as we work together to transform a money system that rewards moochers into a money system that honors the free exchange of value for value.

Dan Priest,
Liberty Dollar CEO

[.]

eLD or the digital Liberty Dollar (...) Shelter Systems, LLC. If you are reading this, most likely you are one of those who had your property seized by the FBI.

Most of "those who had your property seized by the FBI" are probably the money-laundering portion of the clientele. Real paytriots take physical delivery of their metals so they can warn other people to stay away from them and their metals in their remote well-stocked-with-survival-rations-and-weapons mountain compounds.

One category of victim flat out believes that Liberty Dollar was never raided and that we staged the whole thing and ran off with your money.

This is funny stuff on many levels. Ignoring the fact that everyone who ever bought any form of anything from them is a victim including perhaps even the money launderers, what you're left with is a collection of nut-balls who bought silver at $10, $20 and $50 from VonNutball, the biggest nut-ball of all, and all of whom now own silver worth less than $10/ounce.

A lot less, considering that any given pile of coins would have to be refined and assayed to be sold anywhere other than eBay. If you have less than 100 silver LDs, you would be lucky to net $5/ounce in melt value.

Yet some of these very same nut-balls who once thought VonNutball was a monetary god now accuse VonNutball and his nut-ball successor of scamming them.

What a surprise.

[notorial dissent]

Were I to make a WAG about this, I would be minded to think that the ones who had their money socked away into actual metals, were probably, and I nearly gag in using this term here, “legitimate” clients of von Nutjob and company, and should most likely eventually have their now highly devalued tokens returned to them. I guess von Nutjob forgot to make his stuff deflation proof.

I say this, because, anyone with any level of sense, and his rank and file customers exhibit none, who was actually trying to launder any real quantity of money would go for something easily portable, which precious metals aren’t, and easily transferable, which again they aren’t.

So, my WAG is that the holders of any sizable, or maybe not so sizable quantity of “warehouse receipts” is more than likely toast on a spit right now, and as the old saying goes “Lucee, you got a lotta ‘splainin’ to do”. I would bet that the FBI and the IRS are busy matching Libbies right now to see who gets first crack at who. It is not going to be a happy time for any of that group of “clients”. The likelihood of any of them every seeing even a cupronickel dime back out of this is like less than slim and none I should think. Ditto on the e-gold or whatever they were calling it. These are the ones I would look at real close for money laundering and asset hiding. I haven’t looked at it recently, but I would suspect that von Nutjob’s vigorish, was a whole lot cheaper than what the usual going rate that real money lauderers charged for their services. The problem is you get what you pay for. It might even have worked if von Nutjob hadn’t had such a big mouth and ego, but then that is usually what trips most people/con artists up eventually.

As far as the ones who actually bought into the con game, they “may” get their metal back, if they can prove ownership, although I wonder if all the appropriate taxes have been collected and paid, which could put a real crimp in their plans.

One category of victim flat out believes that Liberty Dollar was never raided and that we staged the whole thing and ran off with your money.

This in particular is a hoot, since I don’t think von Nutjob, or his current scapegoat are or were smart enough to have thought of that, as it would have been far too easy and such a simple way to end the con and walk away scott free with all the marbles, leaving a trail of dumbstruck and saddened customers who couldn't believe such a noble enterprise had come to an end by the hand of some evil outside force, and they would have been dumb enough to have swallowed it. No insurance, no proof, and no liability.

[SteveSy]

A lot less, considering that any given pile of coins would have to be refined and assayed to be sold anywhere other than eBay. If you have less than 100 silver LDs, you would be lucky to net $5/ounce in melt value.

Considering they contain 1 ounce of .999 silver I would say, as always, you haven't a clue. It would really depend on when someone purchased them.

What a surprise.

The only surprise is that you haven't figured out how obvious it is you talk really big but most likely live in some one bedroom apartment somewhere with a few hundred, at most between paydays, in the bank. I think over the years I've seen you mention at least ten different types of very successful businesses you have personally run and numerous other ventures, like the last, a heavy hitting super successful retired investment broker. I know, I know, you have more money and know more about everything than I would ever know because you're this and you've done that....save it.

I think it's really sad some of you are getting your kicks out of people losing their money simply because the government in their infinite wisdom seized all of the supply, owned by those holding the certificates, and still to this day have not charged anyone involved with a crime. Lots of accusations, which a lot of you have swallowed whole, but as suspected they can't seem to get their crap together enough to even follow through. In fact he's still doing business, boy they really got the evidence on him....simply pathetic. This could go on for another ten years without change and the same kool-aid drinkers would still be regurgitating the same "he's money laundering" nonsense.

The biggest thing all of you miss is, these people were not holding LD's to make a profit. If that was their intention they would have simply bought the silver from any dealer. They used these to protect the value of their money. The U.S. dollar has lost over 90% of its value in the last 75 years. Of course no one would have suspected the government would sink so low and choose to seize, a better word would be stole because the government is going to keep it, the assets indefinitely backing the certificates.

[Nikki]

Steve:

If I offer to sell you what I claim is a chunk of .999 silver at the market price, will you take my word for its purity or will you require an assay? If you'll take my word for it, I've got a pile of iron pigs and a can of aluminum paint.

If you, as a rational purchaser, demand an assay, who pays for it? Dollars to donuts you'll demand a certified assay frtom the seller before buying.

[SteveSy]

Steve:

If I offer to sell you what I claim is a chunk of .999 silver at the market price, will you take my word for its purity or will you require an assay? If you'll take my word for it, I've got a pile of iron pigs and a can of aluminum paint.

Do you honestly believe no one has figured out if their fake or not by now after all of this time....geesh. Certainly the government would have made that claim if it were true in their ridiculous indictment.

If you, as a rational purchaser, demand an assay, who pays for it? Dollars to donuts you'll demand a certified assay frtom the seller before buying.

Made a lot of gold and silver purchases over the years....can't think of one single time I asked for an assay to prove the .999 written on the coin was real. Can't recall anyone else has either all the times I was purchasing them. If he had just opened shop you might have a point.

[fortinbras]

made a lot of gold and silver purchases over the years....can't think of one single time I asked for an assay to prove the .999 written on the coin was real. Can't recall anyone else has either all the times I was purchasing them.

Your experience - and those of other people - probably was confined to coins issued by the actual governments (past or present) of actual countries. Under those circumstances the issuing countries' laws may have guaranteed the purity and weight, and the coinage itself had an established reputation among numismatists. Not so with Von NotHaus's shekels -- which his lawyer insisted isn't advertised as a "coin" -- especially considering that so much depends on Von NotHaus's personal reliability, and the recent "errors" of his shekel-stamping operation. Real coins of real countries not only have a known and publicized value among collectors, if the country still exists there is some assurance of exchanging the coin for bona fide US currency of a reasonably predictable amount. No such assurance with Von NotHaus's shekel. For one thing, it's substantially overpriced for its metallic content compared with the US Mint's Silver Eagle and Gold Eagle, similarly with the Canadian Gold Mapleleaf and Silver Mapleleaf. And there is no government anywhere on earth that is legally bound to accept it for any purpose.

[.]

blah, blah, blah

Poor Sybil. Beyond having a really poor memory and no comprehension of how physical metals other than U.S. coinage are bought and sold, he seems to resent success.

[notorial dissent]

A lot less, considering that any given pile of coins would have to be refined and assayed to be sold anywhere other than eBay. If you have less than 100 silver LDs, you would be lucky to net $5/ounce in melt value.

Considering they contain 1 ounce of .999 silver I would say, as always, you haven't a clue. It would really depend on when someone purchased them.
I wondered when you would chime your three cents worth in, and as usual, cluelessly as ever. The Libbies are only marked as 1Oz, .999 pure, there is no proof of that, and no metal buyer worth his profession would touch them other than as suspect. Any buyer will take them at the discount they will have to pay to have the metal assayed and smelted, since otherwise they are worthless. Whatever collector’s value they may have will eventually evaporate as they become just one more curiosity worth more for whatever metal they contain than anything esthetic, and as pointed out above, in the metal business quantity is everything.

What a surprise.

The only surprise is that you haven't figured out how obvious it is you talk really big but most likely live in some one bedroom apartment somewhere with a few hundred, at most between paydays, in the bank. I think over the years I've seen you mention at least ten different types of very successful businesses you have personally run and numerous other ventures, like the last, a heavy hitting super successful retired investment broker. I know, I know, you have more money and know more about everything than I would ever know because you're this and you've done that....save it.
And as usual, you are fond of stating the obvious, the above comment was, is, and will remain true with regards to your humble self, “you have more money and know more about everything than I would ever know because you're this and you've done that”, and covers almost everyone you are likely to ever come in contact with.

I think it's really sad some of you are getting your kicks out of people losing their money simply because the government in their infinite wisdom seized all of the supply, owned by those holding the certificates, and still to this day have not charged anyone involved with a crime. Lots of accusations, which a lot of you have swallowed whole, but as suspected they can't seem to get their crap together enough to even follow through. In fact he's still doing business, boy they really got the evidence on him....simply pathetic. This could go on for another ten years without change and the same kool-aid drinkers would still be regurgitating the same "he's money laundering" nonsense.
As usual, your usual unsupported and unsupportable view of reality. I don’t think anyone here is “getting their kicks” out of people losing their money one way or another. The victims lost their money because 1) they were too clueless to see a con when it came up and knocked on their door, and 2) because they refused to listen when saner heads advised them of the danger and stuck their heads in the sand. Yes, lots of accusations, and an ongoing investigation. While it may come as a shock to your ego, but the DOJ does not operate on your schedule and at your convenience, and final charges will be filed when the investigation is completed, not when it suits you. It will not be another 10 years before charges are filed, but it very likely won’t be tomorrow either. If you want evidence of the validity of the charges, why haven’t the big losers in this filed suit for recovery of their property, there is certainly nothing stopping them, maybe because they would just as soon not attract anymore attention to themselves than they already have coming???? Get a clue Stevie, there is no reason in sanity that anyone would pay a ridiculous premium for silver they would never have any use for in the form of “warehouse receipts” when they could buy it legitimately without the paper loss. There is only two reasons for doing it that way, either trying to hide assets or launder money.

The biggest thing all of you miss is, these people were not holding LD's to make a profit. If that was their intention they would have simply bought the silver from any dealer. They used these to protect the value of their money. The U.S. dollar has lost over 90% of its value in the last 75 years. Of course no one would have suspected the government would sink so low and choose to seize, a better word would be stole because the government is going to keep it, the assets indefinitely backing the certificates.
Specious and silly argument at best Stevie, if that were the case, then they could have bought an equal amount of silver for an honest price, and been in the same boat. Why should you pay $10 for an ounce of silver, that may not even be an ounce, when you can go and buy a silver eagle that really is an ounce of silver, is a tolerably decorative and real coin in its own right, and pay what was the then going rate for them. So, to put it bluntly, that excuse like the rest of your excuses doesn’t pass the sniff test, as it reeks of self deception. The people who actually were holding the items are not out anything, except for the gross overpayment they put out for questionable silver. The people whose orders weren’t filled have a complaint against von Nuthouse for not carrying on a legitimate business, and the ones who were foolish enough to leave the silver with were taking a risk regardless, since there was no guarantee the silver would ever be there.

Steve:
If I offer to sell you what I claim is a chunk of .999 silver at the market price, will you take my word for its purity or will you require an assay? If you'll take my word for it, I've got a pile of iron pigs and a can of aluminum paint.

Do you honestly believe no one has figured out if their fake or not by now after all of this time....geesh. Certainly the government would have made that claim if it were true in their ridiculous indictment.
So far as I have heard, the gov’t isn’t interested in whether or not they were lying about the weight and purity, but about currency fraud and money laundering, considerably weightier charges than simple consumer fraud, which in my opinion they were guilty of as well. The crowd von Nutjob was catering to aren’t that bright, and wouldn’t know how to convert the silver if they had to, other than trying to commit currency fraud, and we’ve already seen where that ended up.

If you, as a rational purchaser, demand an assay, who pays for it? Dollars to donuts you'll demand a certified assay frtom the seller before buying.

Made a lot of gold and silver purchases over the years....can't think of one single time I asked for an assay to prove the .999 written on the coin was real. Can't recall anyone else has either all the times I was purchasing them. If he had just opened shop you might have a point.

Depends on the source doesn’t it? If I am buying coins, I generally assume they are what they say they are, I am buying for the value of the coin not the metal, and I make it a point to know what I am buying and what I am supposed to be looking for. If I am buying for metal, I want and expect to see an assay certificate from someone reputable. Yes Stevie, we are all well aware of your financial acumen, so your above statement will come as a surprise no one here.

[SteveSy]

I wondered when you would chime your three cents worth in, and as usual, cluelessly as ever. The Libbies are only marked as 1Oz, .999 pure, there is no proof of that, and no metal buyer worth his profession would touch them other than as suspect. Any buyer will take them at the discount they will have to pay to have the metal assayed and smelted, since otherwise they are worthless. Whatever collector’s value they may have will eventually evaporate as they become just one more curiosity worth more for whatever metal they contain than anything esthetic, and as pointed out above, in the metal business quantity is everything.

Whatever...you're just trying your best to smear someone based on nothing as usual. You have no evidence to support a single thing you're saying. As I said before if what you say is true the government would have certainly made that claim. They haven't so you're just being a smear merchant.

As usual, your usual unsupported and unsupportable view of reality. I don’t think anyone here is “getting their kicks” out of people losing their money one way or another. The victims lost their money because 1) they were too clueless to see a con when it came up and knocked on their door, and 2) because they refused to listen when saner heads advised them of the danger and stuck their heads in the sand. Yes, lots of accusations, and an ongoing investigation. While it may come as a shock to your ego, but the DOJ does not operate on your schedule and at your convenience, and final charges will be filed when the investigation is completed, not when it suits you. It will not be another 10 years before charges are filed, but it very likely won’t be tomorrow either. If you want evidence of the validity of the charges, why haven’t the big losers in this filed suit for recovery of their property, there is certainly nothing stopping them, maybe because they would just as soon not attract anymore attention to themselves than they already have coming???? Get a clue Stevie, there is no reason in sanity that anyone would pay a ridiculous premium for silver they would never have any use for in the form of “warehouse receipts” when they could buy it legitimately without the paper loss. There is only two reasons for doing it that way, either trying to hide assets or launder money.

What a frigging retard. People pay a premium all the time for stuff over and above its smelt value or its piece value. You just show how oblivious you are to reality. No one purchased these for their silver resale value. They purchased them so that their dollars would retain value not necessarily equal to the true value of silver. In fact its completely obvious the notes were denominated higher than the spot silver price. It was clearly stated so. Yet, you continue to chime in with your ridiculous, totally retarded, accusation that people were duped in to buying these for over the spot silver price. Only a total moron would make such a statement knowing that the literature clearly and unambiguously states the exact opposite.

Specious and silly argument at best Stevie, if that were the case, then they could have bought an equal amount of silver for an honest price, and been in the same boat.

Whatever....silver doesn't have a dollar amount written on it. Why don't people buy nickle and copper instead of using coined money. Jesus you truly are a piece of work.

You're either far to dense to get it or you are on a smear campaign based on nothing but your feelings.

Don't forget the dollar has lost over 90% of its value...it's worth virtually nothing if the coins are melted down and the notes are backed by nothing but good faith, which is obviously worth little since they have lost so much purchase value.
While you sit there and spew your garbage there is no doubt a currency backed by something will always beat the U.S. dollar over time. The U.S. dollar does nothing but lose value overtime.

No one has been ripped off, no one was scammed, no one has been charged or convicted with anything. Everyone made the choice to purchase these notes. They only people who got ripped off were those who were unlucky enough to hold certificates for assets that the government seized, the government ripped them off not NorFed. In fact if you were lucky enough to own the minted coins from several years ago, you would have made a fortune on ebay reselling them for double or more their face value.

You claim people having these things are idiots and clueless because their smelted value isn't equal to their face value. Exactly how much do you get when you smelt a coined U.S. dollar? You'll avoid that conversation and spew more garbage about how the government backs them....so what? FRN's continually lose value and are wanted less and less by foreign nations hence their devaluation.

If a company were able to issue currency and coins backed by a precious metal and used widely enough I would gladly accept them over U.S. money. I would be an idiot not to considering how pathetic our government is run and how much debt they've accumulated making U.S. dollars a poor choice.

[webhick]

Layoff the frickin' name-calling, guys.

[SteveSy]

Layoff the frickin' name-calling, guys.

Fine, I only dish out what's given. I'll refrain....

[webhick]

Layoff the frickin' name-calling, guys.

Fine, I only dish out what's given. I'll refrain....

I haven't even read this thread since Demo posted the latest newsletter. I just happened to catch a bit of name-calling as I was scrolling down and rather than figure out who did it, who started it, quote the text in question, and issue a personalized public notice I figured a general one-off would do.

Seems that there aren't too many people who want to act like adults and like to make excuses for behaving contrary to their age. Fine, act like children. I'm sick of seeing it and sick of seeing the excuses that going along with it. I'm on hiatus.

[Arthur Rubin]

I suppose that it's not any more illegal to "counterfit" the Libbys, but using an alloy with the same density as silver, and silver plating, than it was to create them in the first place. I suppose there could be a trademarked symbol on it somewhere, but it doesn't seem likely that von Nuthouse would have registered the trademark, nor does he have any real money to pay for prosecution of trademark infringement, so it would seem reasonably safe.

[SteveSy]

http://libertydollar.org/rco/pdf/trademark-contract.pdf