Clever, other than the getting caught bit

[Judge Roy Bean]

What Gregg said.

ALTA could put a halt to it in days if it were widespread.

[Prof]

In response to Demo's question, I have never seen a faked release of a federal tax lien; I have run across fake ad valorem lien satisfaction filings.

[webhick]

For example, all lien releases would have to be printed on paper with a non-reproducible background. I've never priced such paper, but given the popularity of checks printed on it, I assume the cost is reasonable. But, that would mean no more lien releases faxed to title companies at closing or to loan officers. And credit reporting agencies would no longer rely on a copy provided by the taxpayer to update their records. It would probably even eliminate the issuance of lien releases by local IRS offices because the printing of releases would be centralized. For every fake release foiled, hundreds of real releases would be delayed, possibly for weeks.

I stand by my hotline non-starter, should it become necessary. It requires no special paper. To cut costs, what the IRS needs to do is partner with one of those 976 number agencies to set up a pay-per-minute line. Then, for each unique lien that gets verified the taxpayer gets a five minute credit (one five minute credit per lien, of course) on the PPM line, after which time they'll have to enter a credit card number to continue. Even after the five minute credit, I bet it would pay for itself.

For a good time call 1x-SELF-AUDIT. Yes I omitted a number. I thought about putting a nine there, but that would mean that it would hook up somewhere in Morristown, PA and I doubt the person on the other end would be too happy about having to say "Oh, yeah, baby, take that 179 expense." or "Oh my God! I'm about to hit the statutory limit!" in a really sexy voice.

[Burzmali]

The solution is first, the title company is on the hook for the amount. Second, the perp is on the hook for the crime. Give Sabo 10 years or so (plus restitution and a fine) to think about how great his idea was and I'll venture he and anyone who hears about hi may reconsider next time. Let a few title companies get stuck paying $90K for an oversight, and you can bet they'll find a better way to verify lien releases. Perhaps they could start calling to verify any IRS lien release, or something else, but if they get stung a few times they'll find a way, trust me.

Isn't take basically saying, "Our system is bad, but we're going to make other people worry about it and fix it"?

Would it really be that hard to throw an authentication server up on the Internet somewhere and print a 16 alphanumeric key on the bottom of the lien/lien release that can be entered to confirm the document's legitimacy? A mailing to all of the clerk's offices and title companies that the IRS has dealt with to inform them of the new feature wouldn't break the bank either.

[The Observer]

For example, all lien releases would have to be printed on paper with a non-reproducible background. I've never priced such paper, but given the popularity of checks printed on it, I assume the cost is reasonable. But, that would mean no more lien releases faxed to title companies at closing or to loan officers. And credit reporting agencies would no longer rely on a copy provided by the taxpayer to update their records. It would probably even eliminate the issuance of lien releases by local IRS offices because the printing of releases would be centralized. For every fake release foiled, hundreds of real releases would be delayed, possibly for weeks.

I stand by my hotline non-starter...

But I think your hotline overlooks what the private sector really wants and needs, a piece of paper that says "lien is released." Something tangible that can be submitted in a court of law to prove that diligent search has been done and that the government has certified that they have no secured interest in the property. I am not sure a electronic voice recording would ever be accepted in place of paper either by the courts or the private sector.

And this is what Burzmali's argument keeps overlooking: businesses rely on the convenience of being able to transmit documents easily and timely in order to avoid delays. To implement some sort of preventative measure to deal with the once-in-a-blue-moon incident like this would just cause an outcry from the title insurance companies, lenders, brokers, real estate agencies, etc. not to mention taxpayers who are trying to get their lives back to normal.

By the way, I didn't see anything in the original article to indicate that Sabo was a TP or was being tutored by a "guru". There are people out there who never drink from the kool-ade vat but can still get themselves involved in a crime to defraud the government. Given Sabo's experience in the real estate industry, I think he had enough knowledge to know that he would need to get the notices of lien off his property to receive the proceeds and that he knew that a lien release was an document that title companies relied on. It was simple as that.

[Demosthenes]

The evidence that Sabo was a tp was in the indictment. There is no evidence that I've seen that his lien release idea came from a guru.

[The Observer]

Isn't take basically saying, "Our system is bad, but we're going to make other people worry about it and fix it"?

Would it really be that hard to throw an authentication server up on the Internet somewhere and print a 16 alphanumeric key on the bottom of the lien/lien release that can be entered to confirm the document's legitimacy? A mailing to all of the clerk's offices and title companies that the IRS has dealt with to inform them of the new feature wouldn't break the bank either.

Wouldn't be difficult at all - the recorders' offices don't care what is printed on the face of the release. But how about when the server crashes and delays escrow closings across the country.?Or until the system or an IRS employee screws up and spits out the wrong code resulting in false negatives that would again cause escrows to fall through or loan attempts to be denied? Or the requestor slips up and hits the wrong key on their input and receives a false negative on the release? Do we want to talk about what would occur if a hacker got in and altered the code database and started their own "lien release" industry?

We really to keep in mind Occam's Razor here.

[Burzmali]

Tens of billions of dollar of software is shipped every year with those same codes, I would wager far more than IRS liens. The odds that an incorrect number is printed is exceedingly low in those systems and if the person enters the code wrong, they look at the number again and try again, no harm no foul. The point of such a system is to provide is simple method for verifying the validity of the document. If the recipients choose not to use the system, that's fine, at least then they get to choose the level of risk they are willing to accept. While it probably isn't wide spread now, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, eventually someone in the TP movement will latch onto this and cost a lot of people money.

[Burzmali]

The evidence that Sabo was a tp was in the indictment. There is no evidence that I've seen that his lien release idea came from a guru.

Isn't it basically unheard of for a TP to get original after bouncing from guru to guru like he did?

[Demosthenes]

The evidence that Sabo was a tp was in the indictment. There is no evidence that I've seen that his lien release idea came from a guru.

Isn't it basically unheard of for a TP to get original after bouncing from guru to guru like he did?

No.

[Burzmali]

The evidence that Sabo was a tp was in the indictment. There is no evidence that I've seen that his lien release idea came from a guru.

Isn't it basically unheard of for a TP to get original after bouncing from guru to guru like he did?

No.

Really? I mean, of the last thirty or forty losses on this board, I don't think I've heard anything that was "new" in any sense. Part of the whole "drinking the kool-aid" analogy came about because someone is feeding the TP the information (which they drink up like kool-aid). Even on LPC's tax protestor FAQ, the latest I seem to remember a precedent setting case was in the 90s.

From the indictment posted, it looks like Sabo spammed with TP garbage until 2001, went quiet for 3 years, and then went after the liens. Based on what I've read here, it sounds like he found a new guru somewhere in that 3 years who told him to shut up and wait, and then later to go after the liens. It's the 3 year gap that throws it for me, it just doesn't make sense to me that he would be a hardcore TP for years, then give it up, and then decide that forgery was the way to go after what appear to be living a normal life for a while.

[The Observer]

Tens of billions of dollar of software is shipped every year with those same codes, I would wager far more than IRS liens. The odds that an incorrect number is printed is exceedingly low in those systems and if the person enters the code wrong, they look at the number again and try again, no harm no foul. The point of such a system is to provide is simple method for verifying the validity of the document. If the recipients choose not to use the system, that's fine, at least then they get to choose the level of risk they are willing to accept. While it probably isn't wide spread now, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, eventually someone in the TP movement will latch onto this and cost a lot of people money.

The problem is that once you add the key code to the lien, it becomes another component of the lien that requires verification - a verification that is intangible and cannot be legally transferred or reproduced for another party with interest in the matter. Quixote's example of why watermarked/non-reducible backgrounds shows the problem of not being able to fax or photocopy of the document that would satisfy the receiving party as being a authentic document applies here as well - how would title insurance ABC convince lender XYZ that the code they received was authentic? The only way would be for each involved party to have to call in and verify it independently. And again the question would arise about verifying that what ABC is claiming to have received over the phone is as authentic as what XYZ received.
Most would view it as tedious and an obstacle to doing business - especially in light of the fact that title insurance is covering any potential loss.

You are asking for an added layer of protection based on the results of one case over the last four years - and without any evidence that this has occurred anywhere else. If title companies are not lining up at the door of Congress and screaming for new legislation to protect them, then I would have to wager that they have no problem doing business under the current system. And I would surmise their lack of interest in change has to do with their appraisal of the cost of business.

In the past I have thought that the IRS should make copies certified lien releases available to anyone, (just not the taxpayer) willing to pay for the cost of issuance so that all vested parties could be assured that the property in question was not saddled with the tax lien. But I realized early on that this would not really settle the issue since again no one would be certain if party A's copy of the lien release was any more or less authentic than party B's or C's copy.

[Burzmali]

As I said, an ounce of prevention. If the IRS had spotted a CTC return the year before CTC was "published" and reacted even minimally, how many millions could have been saved? As far as I am concerned, Sabo has handed the IRS that warning, now they can either fix the weakness or pray that no one packages it for delivery to the TP masses. History has shown that the government prefers the latter approach, but I can always be optimistic.

[Demosthenes]

Really? I mean, of the last thirty or forty losses on this board, I don't think I've heard anything that was "new" in any sense. Part of the whole "drinking the kool-aid" analogy came about because someone is feeding the TP the information (which they drink up like kool-aid). Even on LPC's tax protestor FAQ, the latest I seem to remember a precedent setting case was in the 90s.

Someone has to pour the koolaid for others to drink...

Spend some time on places like Sui Juris and you'll see hundred of posts from people trying to come up with something shiny and new.

A recent example would be the 1099OID scheme.

[Burzmali]

Someone has to pour the koolaid for others to drink...

I just, but those folks tend to nice colorful pasts, and this guy doesn't seem to be anything more than a Realtor. Maybe his scam came from the junction of those two fields, most of the other examples I could find of fake lien releases were from Realtors and related professions.

Spend some time on places like Sui Juris and you'll see hundred of posts from people trying to come up with something shiny and new.

I tried once, but my brain tried to climb out my nose and hide behind the sofa...

And while they do try, most of their junk is pretty derivative (Refused for Cause didn't work, but I know Rejected for Cause will!)

A recent example would be the 1099OID scheme.

I guess, but would you like to wager that some reasonable number of people have managed to use 1099OIDs to get fraudulent refunds over the years before SJ brought the matter to a head?

[Demosthenes]

A good example of a tp group that tried to file phony lien releases in the early 1990s was the Juris Christian Assembly. When the clerk-recorder refused to accept the bogus document, they put a pipe bomb under her car, shot through her office window, and broke into her home. They held a gun to her head, and cut her up brutally with a knife. They "dry-fired" the gun at her several times with warnings that she should accept their bogus documents and then sodomozed her with the gun.

In comparison, Sabo's IRS document forgery was pretty tame stuff.

[.]

Is there a block-poster function on this board?

[webhick]

Is there a block-poster function on this board?

Yes, click on the person's name, which brings you to their profile. From there, you can click "Add foe." That'll hide their posts.

[Demosthenes]

Webhick, what does "Add friend" do?

[webhick]

Webhick, what does "Add friend" do?

Adds them to your control panel so you can easily see if they're online and quickly send them private messages. If the template supports it (which I can't remember configuring it to do so, but will see about including it in the revision), it will also highlight their posts on the forum.