Clever, other than the getting caught bit

[The Observer]

Taking things to extremes to prove a point isn't a sound argument. Why bother enforcing anything? Since someone will always circumvent the system, it is cheaper to just to the bare minimum.

It wasn't an extreme example. It paralleled the lien filing situation. Both are instances where the government relies on voluntary compliance and punitive laws to govern a situation in our society. You are asking the government to be more preventative by spending more money and burdening business on the speculation that a promoter *might* exploit this. Four incidents over the last 4 years does not justify the cost, effort and time that would be needed to arrive at your solution.

Why are you so hung ho on this particular scheme?

I think the issue is that Burzmali doesn't realize or understand the immensity of trying to solve the problem. In the private sector where you don't have to deal with laws, policies, special interests and politics, and only need a handful of people to make a decision, the solution is simple. And it can implemented with little fuss. So from his viewpoint, it doesn't make sense that the IRS doesn't take a pro-active stance. If I didn't have the bacgkground on the issues involved, I'd be probably be agreeing with Burzie.

If the new centralized lien filing that is being proposed actually gets enacted by Congress, I think it would remove some of the potential problems that Burzmali has been pointing out.

[Burzmali]

The IRS isn't a private company. They are an enormous bureacracy (100,000 employees) with uneven management, goals that fluctuate at Congress' whim, a horribly outdated computer system, a stagnant budget that doesn't improve when they collect more taxes (no incentive).

I guess that's another difference in the manufacturing sector. On this side of the fence, complaining about a lack of resources is never a good explanation...

But, I guess applying problem solving approaches that have help companies save billions just won't work on the government, at least not while the stick is handy at least, so I'll shut up. It seems my feisty attitude lately has already cost me a mod bit (not that I was using it, so no loss I suppose).

[Quixote]

Well, if TIGTA saw fit to mention it, it most have some presence, if only a minor one.

I can't find any mention of fraudulant lien releases by TIGTA. Got a cite?

[Gregg]

Thank heavens that there isn't a "Maim or Kill Poster" function.

Well, not for most people.

I have one, though.

[Gregg]

Thank heavens that there isn't a "Maim or Kill Poster" function.

Ah, but there is.

Webhick implemented it after my Cattle Prod Rev 1.03a couldn't be upgraded for the last forum update. I've found Maim Poster version 2.0 release b, build 00033 to be far more flexible than Cattle Prod, but it takes some getting used to (there's no sound). And thus far I've been unwilling to try the latest beta version of Kill Poster, although of late I have been tempted.

all of which explains why Submarine Vet disappears for weeks at a time

[Gregg]

I live in Valencia County, New Mexico, where the County recorder still records, files and retains paper documents. When I last had access to DataQuick (2006), Valencia County was NOT accessable on-line.

There are many small counties (under 50,000 population) in this country that simply do not have the resources to have on-line records.

I'm not saying that the records need to be online, only that the recorder have access to a computer to check the validity of a document.

Don't know about anywhere else, but in Ohio the recorder will tell you very emphatically that they do not provide legal advice and do not practice legal judegment on any documents filed. You bring it in, have it notarized and pay the fee, they give it a number and stick it in a drawer. It is up to whomever looks at the recorded document to decide if it's worth the paper it's printed on. Look at the TUC circus, they had a legally recorded document that said they could take over a few BofA branches.

[Gregg]

So, back to my original point. The weakness exists, but the government (on all levels, not just the IRS) would rather prosecute offenders than work to fix it. Speaking as a person who handles returns for a private sector firm, if my company ships one defective unit worth $1.50 to a customer, they are within they're right to ask for us to submit mountains of evidence that the none of our stock share the defect and that we are doing all we can to fix the problem that caused it. Rarely do we get the customer that accepts "well, it only happens every four years" as an excuse.

You should never get to the point that you have to use it as an excuse. Fix the problem and please the customer without ever telling them how often it happens. I work in manufacturing and though I don't want Ford to advertise that one in every 2,000,000 cars will break down within 30 days, it is a fact that one will. I try not to emphasize that to the other 1,999,999 customers.

[Burzmali]

Well, if TIGTA saw fit to mention it, it most have some presence, if only a minor one.

I can't find any mention of fraudulant lien releases by TIGTA. Got a cite?

http://www.treas.gov/tigta/semiannual/s ... pt2004.pdf

page 23

Right column

[The Observer]

I have a quibble with the TIGTA cite:

"...The CPA prepared a bogus IRS letter with the forged signature of an IRS employee purporting to remove the tax lien."

If this is an accurate descritption of the incident, then a lien would not be considered released with an "IRS letter." It would require preparation of the Form 668-Z. So it is not apparent that this forgery would have even worked - certainly not to the trained eye and expectations of a title insurance employee who would have experience and knowledge to know that an "IRS letter" is not the document of release. It is possible they were attempting to flim-flam someone else along the way (lender, real estate agent, buyer, etc.) in trying to complete the sale. The fact that the punishment was light (no jail time and a token fine) suggests that there was no appreciable loss from this attempt.

Of course, the description may be inaccurate (and on purpose to avoid giving any detailed information to assist future would-be scammers on improving the forgery) and that the CPA actually did forge a Form 668-Z. But again, the light penalty seems to sugges the scheme never got off the ground.

[Demosthenes]

Real Estate Broker Gets Prison For Tax Evasion
Former Broker Also Sentenced For Impersonating IRS Agent

POSTED: 5:33 pm PST January 9, 2009

LAS VEGAS -- A former real estate broker who admitted that he evaded payment of his federal income taxes for five years and impersonated an IRS agent in order to remove tax liens from his Henderson home was sentenced to one year and one day in federal prison, according to Greg Brower, U.S. Attorney for the District of Nevada.

Michael J. Sabo was sentenced Friday by U.S. District Judge Roger L. Hunt, who also ordered Sabo to pay approximately $95,000 in restitution to the IRS and to serve three years of supervised release following his release from prison. Sabo pleaded guilty on Sept. 29, 2008, to false impersonation of an officer or employee of the U.S. and tax evasion, Brower said.

Sabo owed approximately $95,000 in individual federal income tax for the years 1994 through 1998, Brower said.

Brower said in 2004 and 2005, Sabo pretended to be an IRS Agent and signed and filed with the Clark County Recorder’s Office three fraudulent lien releases for tax liens the IRS had placed on his residence at 2323 Richard Drive in Henderson. Because of Sabo’s actions, three IRS tax liens, totaling approximately $97,000, were released from the property.

In September 2005, Sabo sold the Richard Drive property, thereby avoiding the payment of his federal taxes. Sabo also transferred most of the proceeds of the sale of the Richard Drive property to a nominee, Brower said.

According to the Nevada Real Estate Division, Sabo was first issued a real estate broker’s license in Nevada in 1982. On Aug. 31, 2008, his license expired and was not renewed. Sabo was permitted to self-report to prison by March 9, Brower said.

The case was investigated by IRS Criminal Investigation and the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration and prosecuted by Assistant U.S. Attorneys Brian Pugh and Jeffrey Tao.