Tax protesters in general

[unasI'minous]

Hello everyone,

I have been lurking about for quite some time but have not had much reason to post anything. I have enjoyed all of the dialogue and hope to someday be the target of a diatribe by Stevesy.

I still don't have much to say but have had quite a bit of freshly squeezed grapefruit juice and vodka this evening and am feeling quite saucy.

I have no training in psychology, but find the TP mind-set extremely interesting.

My reason for posting follows. It seems to me that until very recently, the world of d-bag TPs has been the purview of middle aged losers who have generally failed to do anything with their lives and need someone to blame for their problems. This is a general statement as there are some people who actually make a living (mostly engineers, pilots or chiropractors that constitute a small percentage of d-bag TPs) that are just arrogant enough to believe that they can intepret law better than those who are actually trained.

However, recently a family member (not blood thank god) was sitting on my sofa and mentioned that they had been learning some "tips and tricks" for dealing with the IRS. Having some knowledge of this subject, naturally my sphincter quivered. I gathered myself and asked for more information. It seems that a buddy of his recently received a big refund filing a tax return with a 1099 OID related to a Kennedy-esque type mortage elimination deal. After the standard warnings/logic regarding the implications of using such tactics, the relative decided they could not really decide whether or not the process was legitimate or not. Uff da. I really did my best and referred the newbie d-bag to Evans site and everything but I never was much of a master debater.

What's interesting to me is that my non-blood relative is maybe 22 and hasn't had time to screw his life up yet. It seems to me that there seems to be this new, young, I would view as Libertarian, segment that is embracing certain elements of TP philosophy. Is this something that others are seeing around the country as well? It seems like a symptom of our youth being unwilling to do actual work or being afraid to deal with realities of today. So, anyway, i've been typing enough for the vodka to be wearing off. Has anyone else been noticing this new type of TP, or is it just me?

Thanks for listening to the ravings of a drunken newbie. I hope to be able to contribute to actual controversies as I gain status in the world of Quatloosia.

[Demosthenes]

Welcome to Quatloos.

I agree.

I've seen two new demographic groups joining the TP movement in droves:

1) Young Ron Paul fanatics - flaky anarchy types of either gender and of any race. Since they tend to have the attention span of a gnat, I don't think their current fascination will last that long. I think they like feeling caught up in a self-important movement (that narcissism thing.)

2) African Americans - Up until a couple of years ago, I could count the number of black tps on one hand. Now, it seems the Moorish Temple and similiar groups have jumped on the white supremacist and UCC scams all at once. Less narcissism, just pure scam with little or no press because the press avoids covering black on black crime like the plague.

Ironically, I think these newbies are joining the movement just as the diehard TP crowd is losing interest. And by diehard TP, I'm refering to white middle aged males, usually living in rural areas, with limited education, some military experience, who were driven to protesting by a combination of right wing rhetoric and personal financial failure.

[LPC]

It seems to me that there seems to be this new, young, I would view as Libertarian, segment that is embracing certain elements of TP philosophy.

Cf. Shaun Kranish.

Larken Rose was in his late twenties when he decided to stop filing income tax returns, and was 31 or 32 when he asked the IRS to prosecute him.

Hendrickson was about 34 when he mailed a smoke bomb to the IRS, so I'm not sure if he qualifies or not.

The important lesson is that you're only young once, but you can be immature forever.

[Doktor Avalanche]

Thanks for listening to the ravings of a drunken newbie. I hope to be able to contribute to actual controversies as I gain status in the world of Quatloosia.

I see I'm not the only one who drinks and does Quatloos.

[Mr. Mephistopheles]

Welcome to Quatloos.

I agree.

I've seen two new demographic groups joining the TP movement in droves:

1) Young Ron Paul fanatics - flaky anarchy types of either gender and of any race. Since they tend to have the attention span of a gnat, I don't think their current fascination will last that long. I think they like feeling caught up in a self-important movement (that narcissism thing.)

2) African Americans - Up until a couple of years ago, I could count the number of black tps on one hand. Now, it seems the Moorish Temple and similiar groups have jumped on the white supremacist and UCC scams all at once. Less narcissism, just pure scam with little or no press because the press avoids covering black on black crime like the plague.

Ironically, I think these newbies are joining the movement just as the diehard TP crowd is losing interest. And by diehard TP, I'm refering to white middle aged males, usually living in rural areas, with limited education, some military experience, who were driven to protesting by a combination of right wing rhetoric and personal financial failure.

Do you think the rise in the Moorish Temple types has anything to do with the Jackson and Snipes trials?

[absdes96]

I must concur with the commenters above.

My father was in law enforcement for 30 years and spent the last five years of his career educating senior citizens on scams and frauds. Some of my learning on this issue came from him.

Although I have grown up and have lived in mostly urban areas, I have spent enough time (and have extended family) in the rural areas of southern Illinois to see that Tax Protesting is often (though not always) just one head on the mythical hydra. What I have found is that there are accompanying beliefs of many government conspiracies, a blending of fundamentalist views of the Bible with Libertarian & Anarchist-type polictical views, an ususal emphasis on privacy, independence, weapons ownership, and survival techniques.

Years ago I had conversation with someone who was what I considered to be up to his neck in this sort of movement. I will never forget a cynical (yet somewhat sobering) statement that this man made. I wish I could remember what he said verbatim: "What if I am delusional? Look around you...are most people who you see and know any less delusional or deceived? Look at what most people are chasing after in their lives...unbridled consumerism, a school and university system that cranks out drones, and an overall unwillingness on the part of most people to stand up for the strongest of their convictions. At least I have not lost my soul or dignity. I have little concern about appearing crazy or idiotic. I do not fear the drones who wear badges or who wear black robes, etc...."

While I agree with the parcels of truth in this man's statement, his comments do not negate the fact that this country is still full of very good, very intelligent, and very honest people in all vocations and in all walks of life. Further, even if the individual income tax is somehow injust or immoral, I can think of other far more pressing economic or social injustices that are well worth one's time and effort. Further, I have to wonder if comments made on the condition of our society (rampant corruptions, etc.) aren't a little disingenuous.

Anyway, I would caution your relative to stand guard against the rhetoric. There is something about our younger generation where things that "shock" or are "obscure" or are "extreme deconstructionist" tend to hold a lot of allure - a lot like the "anti-establishment" mantras of the 60's and 70's.

[Demosthenes]

Do you think the rise in the Moorish Temple types has anything to do with the Jackson and Snipes trials?

I've tracked back the spread within the Moorish Temple types to 1999, which is the same year that Snipes got involved with the Commonwealth Trust scammers in Philly.

The Nuwaubian cult in Georgia had a handful of members of the Montana Freemen come down to Georgia to teach them Freemen techniques in the late 1990s around the same time that Snipes tried to purchase the land neighboring the Nuwaubians to build his private army training camp.

[Demosthenes]

Folks, are you forgetting the other group of "tax protestors"?

The new poster addressed that in the initial post.

Rich educated tax protesters are pretty rare. We just tend to see a disproportionate number of them here because those are the ones with enough income to be worth prosecuting.

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

Agreed. One of the things my high school teachers taught me: If you want to avoid being sued, never have a more than a marginal income and no assets. Lawyers will not touch you because there is nothing for them to gain from doing so.

Same applies to tp's. If you are wealthy enough, you will have enough documented income and receipts for some account somewhere to build a solid case that you have not been paying your taxes. On the other hand, if you take cash jobs and bank at the liquor store, pawn or gun shop, nobody is going to care enough to go after you.

[Prof]

Here is an example of a "greedy little piggy" and a much more typtical "refund" scam (as compared to CTC, etc.):

From http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_ ... cheme.html:

Express-News - Two brothers were each sentenced Tuesday to five years of probation for their part in a tax-fraud scheme that tried to get nearly $115,000 in refunds from the federal government.
Richard J. Muñoz and José O. Muñoz could have faced 18 months to 24 months in prison for their guilty pleas to conspiracy to defraud, but U.S. District Judge Fred Biery granted them probation after learning they had paid $16,000 of the $22,000 that they illegally obtained from the government.

The brothers ran a check-cashing business and filed fraudulent tax returns using identifying information of residents of Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic and mailboxes in the U.S. The brothers filed more than 50 tax returns and attempted to get more than $114,000 in refunds.

They obtained more than $22,000 before the Internal Revenue Service caught on.

Biery, who completes 30 years on the bench today, ordered the brothers to pay the rest of the restitution by July 6.

Note that the court allowed probation. I wonder why?

[aprilinva]

I have long-lasting ties with the quintessential tax protester. His beliefs and the beginning of his official protestations date back 25+ years. He is a very intelligent man in many areas. It took me a long time to fully grasp his mind set. After watching his journey, I have come to the conclusion that there must be a handful of people who recognize the insecurities and, dare I say, mental illnesses that cause a person to cling to the fringe elements of many of the interests of your standard tax protester. Do you believe that is the case? That there are concerted efforts by out and out charlatans to lure these people into buying books, and maybe take a perverse pleasure in seeing their followers destroy their own lives? Because that is what happens - their lives are slowly and systematically destroyed and the relationships they hope to have with family and children are rendered impossible. Or are these tax protestors damaged enough before they run into the charlatans that they would have destroyed their lives anyway? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Any thoughts are appreciated, simply for my own ruminations. Thanks.

[Demosthenes]

You can't become a tax protester unless something turns off your common sense switch. With some, it's mental issues (narcissistic personality disorder is the diagnosis in almost every criminal trial psych eval). For others, it's a financial disaster (bankruptcy, failed business, etc.) My guess is that for most, it's a combination of the two.

Tax denial isn't an isolated disease; it's more like a symptom of a bigger problem. Many many people have an irrational hatred of the federal government, and the tax man is one of the very few tangible contacts that most people have with the federal government.

[Judge Roy Bean]

Thanks for listening to the ravings of a drunken newbie. I hope to be able to contribute to actual controversies as I gain status in the world of Quatloosia.

I see I'm not the only one who drinks and does Quatloos.

No, you are far from alone. To do Quatloos after 9:00PM requires Patron.

[absdes96]

I have long-lasting ties with the quintessential tax protester. His beliefs and the beginning of his official protestations date back 25+ years. He is a very intelligent man in many areas. It took me a long time to fully grasp his mind set. After watching his journey, I have come to the conclusion that there must be a handful of people who recognize the insecurities and, dare I say, mental illnesses that cause a person to cling to the fringe elements of many of the interests of your standard tax protester. Do you believe that is the case? That there are concerted efforts by out and out charlatans to lure these people into buying books, and maybe take a perverse pleasure in seeing their followers destroy their own lives? Because that is what happens - their lives are slowly and systematically destroyed and the relationships they hope to have with family and children are rendered impossible. Or are these tax protestors damaged enough before they run into the charlatans that they would have destroyed their lives anyway? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Any thoughts are appreciated, simply for my own ruminations. Thanks.

aprilinva,

I will give you my nickel's worth:

First, I would agree that there seems to be an irrational hatred of the Federal Government by fringe groups. Yet, I am also mindful that the strong dislike of tax collectors goes back at least as far the New Testament of the Bible - in fact, "tax collectors" were in a whole different social category than the "sinners". Also, hatred of taxes (excise, tarriffs, etc.) by common people seems to characterize the history of this country. Taxes were a major issue at the start of the Revolutionary War, Shay's Rebellion, the Whiskey Rebellion, and the Civil War. Some judges on this forum might resent my saying this, but... I suppose we can be grateful that it is the court dockets that are being filled today and not the graveyards on the issue of taxes. But there are casualties (broken relationships, jail, loss of standing in the community, etc.) nonetheless.

Second, I would also concur that long-standing and unresolved disappointments in life can lead a person to take unncessary (and sometimes dangerous) risks. Sometimes even a moderately intelligent person will exchange her/his faculties for "hope" or "meaning" or "being a part of a crusade" of some type - people from all walks of life in every profession have done this.

Lastly, I would be careful not to take too harsh of a view of this individual that you have a relationship with. As much as I value critical thinking, education, and contributing meaningfully to community...I also believe that these culturally constructed (western) notions of "respectability"..."order"..."law abiding"...and dare I say, "common sense", are sometimes worthy of criticism and ridicule as well. (We have "respectable" citizens that have administered water-boarding techinques on Guantanamo detainees!) The best people I know are always one-inch away from becoming radicals...yet they know that caution, sobriety of judgment, and compassion for others are the essence of a life well-lived.

Have a Blessed '09....

[TheSaint]

I have spent enough time (and have extended family) in the rural areas of southern Illinois to see that Tax Protesting is often (though not always) just one head on the mythical hydra.

After that intro, I'm surprised you didn't mention Omega.

[LPC]

I have come to the conclusion that there must be a handful of people who recognize the insecurities and, dare I say, mental illnesses that cause a person to cling to the fringe elements of many of the interests of your standard tax protester. Do you believe that is the case? That there are concerted efforts by out and out charlatans to lure these people into buying books, and maybe take a perverse pleasure in seeing their followers destroy their own lives?

No.

I think that the charlatans fall into two categories:

1. They share the disease of their victims and so believe the snake oil they sell; or

2. They are simply out to make money and don't care about the mindset of the victim any more than any other predator cares about the victim.

[LPC]

You can't become a tax protester unless something turns off your common sense switch. With some, it's mental issues (narcissistic personality disorder is the diagnosis in almost every criminal trial psych eval). For others, it's a financial disaster (bankruptcy, failed business, etc.) My guess is that for most, it's a combination of the two.

Tax denial isn't an isolated disease; it's more like a symptom of a bigger problem. Many many people have an irrational hatred of the federal government, and the tax man is one of the very few tangible contacts that most people have with the federal government.

Yes.

Amen.

What she said.

[unasI'minous]

First, I appreciate you all making me feel welcome. Extending my first thread to two pages is flattery that is appreciated and will be encouraged in the future.

Second, I think absdes96 hit my specific situation on the head with the comments regarding the shock factor that youth today gravitates toward. It has felt like the dude's yanking of my chain has taken precedent over reason. I have done what I can in his case and he'll get what he deserves (hopefully) if he files a bogus return. Who knows though?

Lately, the refunds on bogus returns appear to be flying out quicker than the IRS can follow up on them. This is one of the most frustrating things in that my chain yanker knows someone that got a $300K+ refund filing a return that is so obviously bogus and I assume very different from prior filings that it seems like the system should be able to at least set them aside for a few weeks so a person can actually look at them. Wouldn't reason trump congressional pressure to process returns in a timely fashion or whatever other factor is causing the IRS to issue the refunds on these things? I think the OID actually had himself as the payee and payor. It makes it much harder to convince someone that they're stupid when their stupid friends are paying off their mortgages and buying new cars with money the government sent them for nothing.

Man I'm a loser. The fireworks are going off and I'm here typing on Quatloos.

Also, I apologize for my racy language last night. Vodka bad.

Happy New Year.

[Demosthenes]

Wouldn't reason trump congressional pressure to process returns in a timely fashion

No.

[absdes96]

I have spent enough time (and have extended family) in the rural areas of southern Illinois to see that Tax Protesting is often (though not always) just one head on the mythical hydra.

After that intro, I'm surprised you didn't mention Omega.

The Saint,

I recall reading about this scam in the Chicago Tribune some years ago. Before I sold out to become an analyst for a large insurance & financial carrier, I worked in a non-profit organization that focused on preventing senior citizens from becoming victims of schemes and frauds. Through this experience, I became well-acquainated with the "characteristics" of financial frauds. I do not possess the detailed knowledge of the groups (names and people) that many of you folks do.

I must say, reading through many ariticles and entries on this site has prompted me to give consideration to volunteering some time to the cause, rather than for a salary. Also, reading through this site and the court cases that are posted has enabled me to educate and refresh myself quickly.

With the baby boomers (the largest sector of our nation's population) moving into retirement, I cannot help but think there will be no shortage of scammers out to make a dollar.