Tax protesters in general

[Gregg]

If you are really interested in doing some work to help fight affinity fraud etc... might I suggest you look at http://www.eagleresearchassociates.org/about-us.php
it's a non-profit that works to expose fraud, I do some research for them from time to time.

[buck09]

What's interesting to me is that my non-blood relative is maybe 22 and hasn't had time to screw his life up yet. It seems to me that there seems to be this new, young, I would view as Libertarian, segment that is embracing certain elements of TP philosophy. Is this something that others are seeing around the country as well?

Yes - Demo hit it with the link to Ron Paul, but I think he was the conduit to TP thinking, not the cause of it. Instead, what I've seen with younger folks (vs. me at the ripe old age of 30) is that they're suckered into the gold-standard nonsense. From there, you go deep down the conspiracy hole with G. Edward Griffin's Federal Reserve world domination delusions. Once you've bought into that, pretty much any conspiracy is fair game.

The other angle I've seen is that, for many youth 9/11 was the absolute most tragic event of their lives, much like boomers and the Kennedy assassination. Many get into the writings of the "truth movement". Some turn to older people around them, who have bought into different conspiracies over the years and find that grandiose conspiracies are all around us.

I've long since given up talking sense to any conspiracy minded kook over 40, and just smile politely when their views are espoused in my company. For the rest, kicking the legs out from under their newly-crafted delusional framework can be a lot of fun.

[Number Six]

Why do people become tax protesters or non-filers? For some, it suits their view of things, after being kicked around like dogs. For others, those well-off, who become disturbed by the military, government overreach, slow-paying, chiselling clients and employers, people around them who are gaming the system in other ways. The negative attracts the negative. Chances are that if you feel like a black sheep, you will meet others who seemingly have been dealt bad cards by life. There is usually a slick, con-man around, with other opportunists, who size up the potential disgruntled former taxpayer, and feed a bunch of good-sounding legalese to this recruit. Who is really street-wise when it comes to statutory tax law and avoiding potentially criminal law? Not many...never had a law course in high school or college, let alone a decent primer on ethics. Common sense is another matter.

[Demosthenes]

I think greed and an unrealistic sense of self-importance are also two pretty important driving forces for tps.

[aprilinva]

I agree with Demosthenes completely. I think the issue is actually very simple at its core: most tax protestors suffer delusions of grandeur and believe themselves to be heroes and unique from the "sheep" around them.

[Lambkin]

Why do people become tax protesters or non-filers? For some, it suits their view of things, after being kicked around like dogs.

I think their sense of being kicked around is largely imaginary. They are no more oppressed than other people who manage to pay their taxes, they just have a well-developed sense of entitlement and will go to any length to feed it.

Chances are that if you feel like a black sheep, you will meet others who seemingly have been dealt bad cards by life.

Yeah, seemingly that could be the reason but many people are dealt bad cards and still manage to do the right thing for their long-term financial and personal well-being, and avoid going off the deep end into loonyland. I think TPs have a lot in common with dopers in sport and other varieties of lying, cheating sneaks. One of the cornerstones of their entitled world-view is that everyone is corrupt and so only fools have ethics.

[Thule]

I think greed and an unrealistic sense of self-importance are also two pretty important driving forces for tps.

A little bit of chicken and egg, I suppose. In my experience, people who are constantly down on their luck tend to be susceptible to smooth-talking hucksters who basicly tell them that "It's not your fault that you live in a dump and can't hold on to a job, it's the Illuminati/Big Gov etc etc".

In addition, if said huckster can provide them with an opportunity to "Fight the Good Fight" and basicly be someone of importance, they're hooked for life, on TP-stuff, MLM and what not. Once someone tell them that they are important, it's hard to break away and realize that they've been played like a banjo.

Of course, this only covers the "lower end" of the TP-movement. As for the dentists, chiros and such, I suspect that greed and self-importance has to be there from the start for them to be sucked in. That, or a no-good husband....

[SteveSy]

I think greed and an unrealistic sense of self-importance are also two pretty important driving forces for tps.

Greed? I have never understood this nonsense. It's exactly equivalent to saying "You're greedy because you won't pay off the mob when they come around to collect their protection money. They are protecting you after all. Every one else has to pay it why do you think you're immune?"

It's not greed to want to keep what you worked for and not hand it to someone else who did little to nothing for you or did things you don't want them doing and charging you for it.

Sure the federal government needs taxes to operate, there's no argument there. However they don't need the amount of taxes they're getting and they certainly don't need to have direct access to everyone's paycheck via an income tax. They don't need to intrude on our lives at every turn. We simply don't need a nanny State. The world would not end if they stopped collecting the income tax. We would not all live in squalor, have broken roads, children working in factories nor viruses and disease running rampant.

Besides, only someone totally brainwashed could actually convince themselves or be convinced that the government was given the power to collect a perpetual tax from the earnings of every single person in the US on an everyday basis. It's simply absurd considering what was written and had transpired back when this country was formed. Like I've said a thousand times we went to war becuase of a petty sugar tax and a less than 1% tax on printed goods. The majority weren't even affected by the silly tax to England, it was just the fact that they had the balls to tax us. The articles of confederation failed becuase they wouldn't even allow the government the power to enforce collection of taxes. Are we to assume they totally and utterly flipped and gave the government the power to not only forcibly collect taxes but also to collect an unlimited amount on a perpetual basis from everyone's earnings without even a war in progress? What the hell are you people smoking?

Many of the younger people have issue because they see what you missed. they haven't been programmed yet like you are. They see billions and trillions of tax dollars going to places they don't want anything to do with. They see our government bailing out industries and on the other hand doing nothing while our jobs go overseas. They don't want to be controlled. They don't want to hear how their government is really helping and it to their benefit that they pay the taxman when all its really doing is taking their money and wasting it on nonsense.

I think you'll find as the economy gets worse you'll see more and more TP's. It has nothing to do with greed. When people have extra cash they can handle being ripped off to a certain degree. When money gets short and times get tough it becomes unacceptable.

[.]

unacceptable

So, Sybil, are you finally getting around to encouraging armed insurrection?

Just kidding.

I actually agree with some (few of the) things you have to say, but any additonal lack of tax compliance in a weak economy won't be due to your imagined philosophical reasons, it'll be due to the marginal moron trying to pay his bills who falls into some delusional TP trap, which boils down to EXPEDIENCE.

The same thing that motivated so many of the delusional crowd who have already been convicted and imprisoned. That is to say, self-interest. Another way of saying greed.

Nothing wrong with self-interest ("greed," colloquially,) without it we wouldn't have an economy worth talking about. To claim that "younger people" (who just overwhelmingly voted for an inarguably tax-and-spend liberal) generally have any idea of who wants to tax them less is clearly ridiculous.

Opposition here to TP mindlessness and stupidity has nothing to do with being "brainwashed" regardless of how you may envision it. More TPs will be a pure expression of their expedient personal greed. And, in some (or many) cases, also their narcissism.

[RyanMcC]

It's not greed to want to keep what you worked for and not hand it to someone else who did little to nothing for you or did things you don't want them doing and charging you for it.

I would classify some tax protesters as "desperate and delusional" rather than greedy. Greedy would be filing a false refund claim for thousands of dollars you didn't pay (actually that would be fraud/theft, but you get the point). Atleast when tax protesters make false refund claims it is generally only for the ammount they actually paid, I will give them that much.

In fairness, the government is capable of being greedy sometimes too.

Sure the federal government needs taxes to operate, there's no argument there. However they don't need the amount of taxes they're getting and they certainly don't need to have direct access to everyone's paycheck via an income tax. They don't need to intrude on our lives at every turn. We simply don't need a nanny State.

I agree we don't need the government intruding more in our lives, and I agree they increasingly do. I also agree the income tax is bad for a number of reasons (severe lack of respect for property rights, it largely relies on the "honor system" for collection and for not making a refund claim you aren't entitled to, too many loopholes, too intrusive, too much social engineering via the tax code, allows the government to grow too large and spend irresponsibly, it is probally a leading cause of financial troubles for many people, too many others to list)..

Besides, only someone totally brainwashed could actually convince themselves or be convinced that the government was given the power to collect a perpetual tax from the earnings of every single person in the US on an everyday basis.

Given the numerous court rulings on the subject, it seems only someone totally brainwashed could actually convince themselves that the government wasn't given the power to collect a perpetual tax from the earnings of every single person in the US on an everyday basis (atleast a quarterly basis).

Are we to assume they totally and utterly flipped and gave the government the power to not only forcibly collect taxes but also to collect an unlimited amount on a perpetual basis from everyone's earnings without even a war in progress? What the hell are you people smoking?

Yes, and I plead the 5th.

Many of the younger people have issue because they see what you missed. they haven't been programmed yet like you are. They see billions and trillions of tax dollars going to places they don't want anything to do with. They see our government bailing out industries and on the other hand doing nothing while our jobs go overseas. They don't want to be controlled. They don't want to hear how their government is really helping and it to their benefit that they pay the taxman when all its really doing is taking their money and wasting it on nonsense.

I largely agree with you there. I used to wonder if we would ever pay down our national debt to a reasonable level. Now I wonder if we will ever stop adding to it.

Another point you often make (which I agree with) is the immorality of putting things on the national credit card to force future generations still unborn to pay for it.

Even with the income tax, I don't see us having a balanced budget anytime soon (even with massive cuts in spending). If we eliminated the income tax the budget deficit would only get larger leaving future generations with an even larger bill.

If the Income Tax is immoral, and leaving future generations with a large debt is immoral, what do you propose be done? Spending cuts alone is not a realistic answer (even though the government's current course of action isn't very realistic either in my opinion).

I think you'll find as the economy gets worse you'll see more and more TP's. It has nothing to do with greed. When people have extra cash they can handle being ripped off to a certain degree. When money gets short and times get tough it becomes unacceptable.

There probally is a correlation between economic ability to pay and willingness to drink the kool-aid, so you might have a point.

[Imalawman]

How coincidental! I just learned that my best friend's younger brother just got involved with tax protesting groups and was trying to convince my friend to join him. Fortunately, he didn't fall for it in the least. But this guy is around 23 or so, already been involved with Ron Paul, Amway (excuse me, Quixstar), and paytriot nonsense. He's smart, but I think frustrated by the glorious future he was promised by the many MLM companies he's been involved with. This frustration has forced him to quick and easy fixes instead of looking at hard work and study as the answer.

While I'm on this... I have noticed a huge connection between MLM members and tax protesting. I bet that around 80% of all MLMer's were Ron Paul supporters. Maybe the same delusion that would lead somebody to think that you could get rich from following the MLM program is the same one that leads one to believe that the income tax is the largest fraud ever perpetrated.

[Demosthenes]

I have noticed a huge connection between MLM members and tax protesting.

+ Debt elimination scams
+ Medical quackery

[Lambkin]

this guy is around 23 or so, already been involved with Ron Paul, Amway (excuse me, Quixstar), and paytriot nonsense. He's smart,

Here's hoping for a new definition of "smart". This person is displaying one of the more tragic forms of abject stupidity. Maybe he can speak coherently or work a quadratic equation but he is an idiot nevertheless.

[Lambkin]

Many of the younger people have issue because they see what you missed. they haven't been programmed yet like you are. They see billions and trillions of tax dollars going to places they don't want anything to do with. They see our government bailing out industries and on the other hand doing nothing while our jobs go overseas. They don't want to be controlled. They don't want to hear how their government is really helping and it to their benefit that they pay the taxman when all its really doing is taking their money and wasting it on nonsense.

Hey, I think the government wastes most of the money I give it, and what they don't waste they spend on killing brown-skinned people around the world. But the income tax is still legal. There's a difference between being angry and being an angry idiot.

I think you'll find as the economy gets worse you'll see more and more TP's. It has nothing to do with greed. When people have extra cash they can handle being ripped off to a certain degree. When money gets short and times get tough it becomes unacceptable.

Steve, Steve, Steve... still hoping for a revolution. You think the masses are going to rise up and smash the state? Why didn't they elect Ron Paul instead of Obama anyway, or was Ron Paul not righteous enough? Give it your best shot buddy, have your revolution and let us know how it goes. I have a feeling I won't notice since it's "not happening".

[Number Six]

Some of the tax protestors are ideological in original cause, not wanting to perjure themselves, buying the complicity argument. Most modern leaders like Lynn Meredith and Pete Hendrickson are just con-artists and their followers are dupes and rubes who have no good source of objective information to test Henderson's ideas--I countered a potential "recruit" of his who thought he might give it a whirl. Together with the MLM connection, there are cultic connections, seeking political and religious saviors from life's tedium. The lack of uniformity in tax/law enforcement, up to 1997 or so--such as has existed many years ago is another rationale--all excuses. I believe tax enforcement needs to get a lot tougher because of the risk of anarchy. I could paint a black picture of what anarchy would be like based upon the history of revolts--roving gangs of armed thugs--I wonder how the t.p.'s would feel then?

[wserra]

Tax denial isn't an isolated disease; it's more like a symptom of a bigger problem. Many many people have an irrational hatred

I know I cut Demo off in mid-sentence, but I think she's onto something important, and I'd like to generalize. People have irrational dislikes for lots of things. The "dislike" part of that phrase leads them to espouse alternatives, and the "irrational" part leads them to espouse alternatives that don't work.

Those of you who read the MLM forum here see how two other "irrational hatred"s go hand-in-hand - mainstream jobs and mainstream medicine. [I had gotten this far in the post yesterday, then had to quit it to work. In the interim, Imalawman (MLMs) and Demo (medical quackery) made the points.] A physician named George Lundberg made the well-known observation that there is no such thing as "alternative medicine". To be sure, there are alternatives in medicine - which among multiple treatment options or differential diagnoses to choose. But the general case is that there are methods which have been proven to work, and methods which haven't. Only the former are "medicine". If an "alternative" treatment is proven to work, it becomes medicine. Foxglove became Digoxin. If not, an MLM sells it.

I ran across a terrific article which illustrates the point well in the "Science-Based Medicine" blog. It's called "Alternative Flight", written by one Mark Crislip. He argues that people need to be free to choose their mode of flight "based on alternative concepts of gravity and alternative airplane design". It's very funny, and I'm sure you can see where it's going. Devices fly, or they don't fly, both of which are proven by testing them. If they fly, they're airplanes. If they don't, they're wrecks. The idea of "alternative" is misplaced here.

It's the same with MLMs and TPs. As has been repeatedly observed here, if any TP stuff actually worked, the Gates and Buffetts of the world would leap on it. It would not then be called "protesting", it would be called "law". If MLMs worked for others than those at the top of the pyramid - hell, I'd leap on it. I'd love to work from home. I waste half my life travelling and sitting in courtrooms, away from my family.

Rational people see this. It's those made irrational by personal failure, or by hatred of government or medicine, who don't. Scammer bait.

[grixit]

I have noticed a huge connection between MLM members and tax protesting.

+ Debt elimination scams
+ Medical quackery

Anger at family court and social services. There are a lot of people who have lost custody of their children, or who have been through a traumatic divorce, who claim to be victims, not of a cold bureaucracy or incompentent or even biased officials, but of a dedicated assault on society. They paint themselves as principled guardians of "tradtional values", who have been persecuted for their steadfastness by enemies of "the family". These are mostly middle aged men with evangelical christian leanings. Those who have lost custody often have websites dedicated to their children. They also often list their wives as victims because they obviously only testified under pressure or brainwashing.

Such people add alimony and child support to taxes as examples of government "theft".

[jg]

Greed? I have never understood this nonsense. It's exactly equivalent to saying "You're greedy because you won't pay off the mob when they come around to collect their protection money. They are protecting you after all. Every one else has to pay it why do you think you're immune?"

Comparing the US government to the mob is ludicrous. Why don't you go try your approach to an Afghan tribal leader?

It's not greed to want to keep what you worked for and not hand it to someone else who did little to nothing for you or did things you don't want them doing and charging you for it.

You are right- if you define greed so as to not include selfishly denying or ignoring the tax laws passed in this country. It is the citizens job to get what they deserve from their representatives (though I do agree we are not doing that very well at all lately).

Sure the federal government needs taxes to operate, there's no argument there. However they don't need the amount of taxes they're getting and they certainly don't need to have direct access to everyone's paycheck via an income tax. They don't need to intrude on our lives at every turn. We simply don't need a nanny State. <snip whining and complaining>

So your solution is to whine and complain on the Internet or to deny or ignore the tax laws passed in this country?
Your dissatisfaction, unwillingness or inability to make change is not an excuse to not file and pay income taxes.

Many of the younger people have issue because they see what you missed. they haven't been programmed yet like you are. They see billions and trillions of tax dollars going to places they don't want anything to do with. They see our government bailing out industries and on the other hand doing nothing while our jobs go overseas. They don't want to be controlled. They don't want to hear how their government is really helping and it to their benefit that they pay the taxman when all its really doing is taking their money and wasting it on nonsense.
I think you'll find as the economy gets worse you'll see more and more TP's. It has nothing to do with greed. When people have extra cash they can handle being ripped off to a certain degree. When money gets short and times get tough it becomes unacceptable.

So you endorse that they should whine and complain on the Internet or to deny or ignore the tax laws passed in this country?
Their dissatisfaction, unwillingness or inability to make change is not an excuse to not file and pay income taxes.

Happy New Year (even though there is nothing new in your rant) !

[Demosthenes]

Anger at family court and social services.

Oooh. Good point.

[Judge Roy Bean]

Tax denial isn't an isolated disease; it's more like a symptom of a bigger problem. Many many people have an irrational hatred

....
I ran across a terrific article which illustrates the point well in the "Science-Based Medicine" blog. It's called "Alternative Flight", written by one Mark Crislip. He argues that people need to be free to choose their mode of flight "based on alternative concepts of gravity and alternative airplane design". It's very funny, and I'm sure you can see where it's going. Devices fly, or they don't fly, both of which are proven by testing them. If they fly, they're airplanes. If they don't, they're wrecks. The idea of "alternative" is misplaced here.

It's the same with MLMs and TPs. As has been repeatedly observed here, if any TP stuff actually worked, the Gates and Buffetts of the world would leap on it. It would not then be called "protesting", it would be called "law". If MLMs worked for others than those at the top of the pyramid - hell, I'd leap on it. I'd love to work from home. I waste half my life travelling and sitting in courtrooms, away from my family.

Rational people see this. It's those made irrational by personal failure, or by hatred of government or medicine, who don't. Scammer bait.

It's market-driven. The promoters are garden-variety entrepreneurs. There will always be a percentage of a population that is more than just suspicious of the motives of people in government (rightfully so, IMHO). Some harbor a mistrust of institutionalized quasi-authoritarian collections of experts with alphabet soup after their names (like doctors and attorneys). All you have to do is tap into that suspicion and feed it with a believable alternative schema and you and some number of those you recruit along the way can make money. Ain't it a great country!!!!