Tax protesters in general

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Gregg
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Re: Tax protesters in general

Post by Gregg »

Again, it's not a matter of greed, following rules or anything like that. The law is so repugnant to freedom and liberty that its unfathomable to a lot of people that it could be constitutional in the first place. Even if it was no one has the right to place that kind of control on another in a land that was formed out of the demand for freedom and liberties.

It's greed, Stevey. Greed and rationalization. Every time I see you Patridiots carrying on about freedom and being oppressed I remind myself that the people I saw in Somalia pay no income tax, have no intrusive government to interfere with their lives and live in perfect harmony with nature. And then I also remember that in nature, a lot of really violent and ugly things happen to the bunnies and the does. I like to think I'll give up some of my "freedoms", starting with the freedom to rape, kill, pillage and burn, for the greater good. I never saw a Somali who I considered better off than the average US citizen because they had a less intrusive government. But if you want to go there and prove me wrong, I'm sure we could get a few people here to pony up the coin for your 1 way ticket over.
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Famspear
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Re: Tax protesters in general

Post by Famspear »

Gregg wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
SteveSy wrote:You're gonna piss off that kitty and its gonna throw down that melon cap.
I always respect the melon cap, and would never put it down hastily or mistreat it in any way.

We should have contests to be the weekly or monthly "Attendant Pro Melon Cap" whose duties shall consist of assuring that the Melon Cap "Football" (a small case that holds the Melon Cap during hand to paw combat and contains the codes to activate the Melon Cap's most secret functions) is never more than a few feet away.
Wait a minute. Melon cap? Melon cap? I always thought it was a citron vert tranche.
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Gregg
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Re: Tax protesters in general

Post by Gregg »

You may be right and I may be using the non-Illuminati slang term. In order to be sure we should contact the Ministry of Heraldry and Styles.
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Famspear
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Re: Tax protesters in general

Post by Famspear »

Gregg wrote:You may be right and I may be using the non-Illuminati slang term. In order to be sure we should contact the Ministry of Heraldry and Styles.
This New World Order stuff can get so technical.......
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
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Re: Tax protesters in general

Post by Judge Roy Bean »

jg wrote:....The government can not take out however much it wants whenever it wants with the income tax. This is not an issue unless one is ignorant or misinformed of the existence of the law making process.
Actually, I disagree. Congress is part of "the government" and there is no higher power that stops Congress from taking "however much in wants whenever it wants." It's simply a matter of what political and sociological trend has attained sufficient power in Washington.

TP's don't like the trends (plural) and have concocted their own alternative world-view.
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Famspear
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Re: Tax protesters in general

Post by Famspear »

SteveSy wrote:
[ . . . ]It's exactly equivalent to saying "You're greedy because you won't pay off the mob when they come around to collect their protection money. They are protecting you after all. Every one else has to pay it why do you think you're immune?"
I agree that "greed" is not the sole motivation for all tax protesters. I would also posit that greed is not even a significant motivation for many of them.

But of course Steve is wrong. The idea that "everyone else has to pay, why do you think you're immune" is not the basis for the moral and legal rightness of taxation.

I have long been fascinated with this mindset that falsely equates forced exaction of taxes by the government with forced exaction of tribute by the mob. People like Steve seem to over-focus on the economic aspect and the coercive aspect of taxation and mob extortion (which are of course similar) and to ignore the legal dimension. Protesters profess to be horrified by the coercive nature of both the legal process of taxation and the illegal process of mob extortion, and they profess (apparently or impliedly) to see no substantive difference between the legal process of taxation and the illegal process of mob extortion, etc. This is intellectual dishonesty on the part of tax protesters.

Many tax protesters, on a gut, emotional level, seem unable to come to terms with the reality of political and legal authority when it comes to U.S. federal income taxation. To many of them, the only thing that is important is that their money is being taken by force, without their individualized consent. They accept neither the legal right nor the moral right of the government to take their money by force without their individualized consent, even where that is being done in accordance with laws formally enacted through the legislative process prescribed by the very Constitution that the tax protesters falsely profess to adore. Instead, they whine on and on and argue that the Constitution is being violated. This is false rationalization. This is also the same sort of nonsense that one would find with a person who argues that he should not have to obey vehicle traffic laws because he has not consented to those laws on an individualized basis, or that the traffic laws are not in conformity with the Constitution.

Steve, the government has both the moral and the legal right to take your money without your permission. In a representative democracy, a republic, such as ours, tax laws are enacted through a legal and political process. Those laws often are not enacted wisely, and the money exacted through the tax collection process often is not wisely spent, but as a general proposition that does not affect the moral and legal right of the United States government to do what it currently does with respect to taxation.

Of course, the executive branch of government and the taxpayer often have disputes over what the law actually is and how it should be applied. When disputes arise, the judicial branch of government may be called upon to decide who wins and who loses. And the legislative branch may be influenced to change the law for the future.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
SteveSy

Re: Tax protesters in general

Post by SteveSy »

Gregg wrote: Every time I see you Patridiots carrying on about freedom and being oppressed I remind myself that the people I saw in Somalia pay no income tax, have no intrusive government to interfere with their lives and live in perfect harmony with nature.
I never said we're like Somalia, nor have I ever claimed they were better off. I also never claimed we were like any super controlled society like North Korea. However, I do believe we've lost a lot of freedoms, rights, liberties in the last 100 years. Did we have the freedom to rape, kill, pillage and burn a 100 years ago no we didn't. Just because we had freedoms doesn't mean we we doomed to be stuck in the pre-industrial age, rampant disease and all dirt roads forever until we allowed the government to tax our paychecks and control nearly every aspect of how we live.
SteveSy

Re: Tax protesters in general

Post by SteveSy »

Of course, the executive branch of government and the taxpayer often have disputes over what the law actually is and how it should be applied. When disputes arise, the judicial branch of government may be called upon to decide who wins and who loses. And the legislative branch may be influenced to change the law for the future.
You can believe what you wish but if anything has failed its the design of the judicial branch. With the ability to appoint for life and to selectively choose, not based on qualifications but how they will rule the system was doomed and has failed to protect the citizens against the other branches of government. This was seen in the Dred Scott case, Charles River Bridge, Jenson and the many cases that followed in the FDR era. You can place your faith in a judicial branch of government that is appointed by, paid by and selectively hand picked by the very branch of government seeking to violate our rights. They don't look at the constitution as a means to limit government, they mostly look at it from the view of how they can allow usurpation to continue unabated these days and its no surprise considering how the jurists get their jobs.

You certainly wouldn't be so accepting of a large corporation appointing, paying for and hand picking its own magistrates in all disputes made against them. It certainly wouldn't be any surprise at all if the company practically got away with murder and never lost any major cases against them, but you are more than supportive of the outcome when the government does it.

We no longer have a representative government I'm sorry to say, no more than Blagojevich is representing Illinois.
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grixit
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Re: Tax protesters in general

Post by grixit »

Ho hum, i see from the responses that Steve is hiting all his macros again. It's so much more interesting here since i put him on ignore.
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LPC
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Re: Tax protesters in general

Post by LPC »

grixit wrote:Ho hum, i see from the responses that Steve is hiting all his macros again. It's so much more interesting here since i put him on ignore.
I find it to be more peaceful, also.

I still see the parts of his messages that other people choose to quote, and that's more than enough.
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