Quatloos is a Marxist Front!

[GoldandSilverEagles]

Alright Mr. "Operative", tell me this:
How can I be required by law to sign and file a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g with the US Federal government that can be used to prosecute me criminally?

The statutory requirement to file an income tax return does not violate a person's right against self-incrimination. The requirement to file an income tax return does not violate the 5th amendment.

Bull!

Filling out a 1040, signing it under "penalty of perjury", and submitting it to the government is little different than volunteering information to the government, on the witness stand, in a court of law. Both testimonies are made under the penalties of perjury.

The only real difference, is that info supplied on a 1040 is written, while the info supplied in court is oral.

The info on the 1040 is supplied in written form, and you can be criminally prosecuted for it.

So, back to my original question...

***How can I be required by law to volunteer info to the government that can be used to criminally prosecute me?

The simple answer is, I can't be.

I have no objections to paying the tax, as long as the laws are provided to me that I am expected to abide by, and that I am not required to waive any rights when I do so.

[SteveSy]

Reality?! When was the last time the IRS or, hell, any fed. agency, sent out a letter asking for information, randomly, received a 5th amendment response and then proceeded to investigate intensely? I suggest that is not a realistic hypothetical.

I doubt many people invoke the 5th on their tax return, to do so would guarantee investigation.

We've hear this before haven't we. Repeating it must make it true.

Oh forgive me you're right. The government would NEVER think anything is amiss if you claimed a 5th amendment privilege on a tax return. They would never put 2 and 2 together to conclude the only reason you can even claim that privilege is because you might frigging incriminate yourself. I mean, no one in the utopian public loving government would assume that your fear of incrimination has anything to do with a criminal act.

[SteveSy]

Alright Mr. "Operative", tell me this:
How can I be required by law to sign and file a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g with the US Federal government that can be used to prosecute me criminally?

The statutory requirement to file an income tax return does not violate a person's right against self-incrimination. The requirement to file an income tax return does not violate the 5th amendment.

Bull!

Filling out a 1040, signing it under "penalty of perjury", and submitting it to the government is little different than volunteering information to the government, on the witness stand, in a court of law. Both testimonies are made under the penalties of perjury.

The only real difference, is that info supplied on a 1040 is written, while the info supplied in court is oral.

Like he said you can claim the 5th, you are not forced to incriminate yourself. Furthermore this does not exempt you from providing the information, it just exempts you from prosecution based on that information.

The info on the 1040 is supplied in written form, and you can be criminally prosecuted for it.

So, back to my original question...

***How can I be required by law to volunteer info to the government that can be used to criminally prosecute me?

Because you can receive immunity based on that information. However, you can not claim the 5th just because you don't want to release the information. You must have a valid reason for doing so, like selling illegal drugs or other offenses which may lead to your guilt in a criminal matter. You'll still be liable for all penalties, interest and possible seizures of your property.

You can thank the Ol' Supreme Court for using verbal acrobatics to totally eviscerate your constitutional rights....The government wants your money, that trumps any constitutional rights you may have.

[MSA]

Alright Mr. "Operative", tell me this:
How can I be required by law to sign and file a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g with the US Federal government that can be used to prosecute me criminally?

The statutory requirement to file an income tax return does not violate a person's right against self-incrimination. The requirement to file an income tax return does not violate the 5th amendment.

Bull!

Filling out a 1040, signing it under "penalty of perjury", and submitting it to the government is little different than volunteering information to the government, on the witness stand, in a court of law. Both testimonies are made under the penalties of perjury.


The only real difference, is that info supplied on a 1040 is written, while the info supplied in court is oral.

The info on the 1040 is supplied in written form, and you can be criminally prosecuted for it.

So, back to my original question...

***How can I be required by law to volunteer info to the government that can be used to criminally prosecute me?

The simple answer is, I can't be.

I have no objections to paying the tax, as long as the laws are provided to me that I am expected to abide by, and that I am not required to waive any rights when I do so.

You are right. Supplying information on the 1040 and providing testimony in court are very similar.

In the case of court testimony, you can be subpoenaed and required to testify. If the court asks you to provide testimony that might incriminate you--i.e., provide evidence that you committed a crime--you can "plead the Fifth" and refuse to testify.

But for any other information--any information that does not incriminate you--you must provide the information. If you refuse to provide that information, the court can jail you for contempt of court. If you lie on the stand, you can be prosecuted for perjury. The Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination is irrelevant in those cases.

The same standards apply for the 1040. If the information you are otherwise required to provide would incriminate you--i.e., would provide evidence that your income was obtained illegally--you can refuse to provide it.

But you can be required to provide any other information on your 1040. If you lie about your income, you can be prosecuted for that lie. You cannot refuse to testify--or refuse to provide information on your 1040--simply because the government can prosecute you if you lie in your testimony. To hold otherwise would render pointless the concept of testifying under oath.

[Lambkin]

***How can I be required by law to volunteer info to the government that can be used to criminally prosecute me?

How? Very easily: by punishing you if you fail to comply and your non-compliance is discovered.

I know you don't think this is right, but the judicial system just doesn't see it your way and you won't find a majority of citizens to back you up. So if you earn more than the minimum, your options are to comply or hide. You apparently chose the latter. Good luck with that.

[GoldandSilverEagles]

***How can I be required by law to volunteer info to the government that can be used to criminally prosecute me?

How? Very easily: by punishing you if you fail to comply and your non-compliance is discovered.

That makes about as much sense as....chicken poop LoL

[Famspear]

Regarding Steve's comment earlier about the likelihood of being investigated if you claim the Fifth Amendment on your tax return: Based on my experience, that is extremely unlikely. I have never actually had to do that for a client. However, I can tell you that I prepare hundreds of returns every year that include Form 8275 -- which is supposed to be a huge red flag for the Internal Revenue Service. In over 15 years of doing this, I have yet to see the IRS examine a return based on this red flag.

Merely writing "fifth amendment" to describe an item of income on a federal income tax return is probably much less of a red flag that including a Form 8275.

IRS personnel who post here can provide a more authoritative explanation than I can, Steve, but you have to understand that each IRS Service Center processes MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of tax returns each year. A line on a Form 1040 with the words "fifth amendment" on it is a needle in a haystack.

And what would the IRS do if an IRS employee saw that entry on your tax return? What is the IRS supposed to do? What could they do? Exactly what are they going to investigate? You've reported the income, you've (hopefully) computed the tax properly, you've (hopefully) paid the tax -- so, what crime is the IRS going to investigate? Is the IRS going to initiate a criminal investigation of you to find some crime that does not even involve tax evasion, etc., based on your assertion of the privilege on a tax return? An investigation of what? Let's get real, Steve.

I think layman (and laywomen??) have a warped view about what asserting the privilege really means, and how the assertion of the privilege affects the person asserting that privilege.

I myself would certainly assert the Fifth Amendment privilege for myself on a tax return (or anywhere else) -- even if I have committed no crime -- if I ever thought I should do so.

Check this out (Professor James Duane, Regent University Law School):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

You think that the Fifth Amendment's purpose was to prevent things like the requirement that we file a Form 1040? Is that what you're saying, Steve? Are you serious?

EDIT: Steve, the purpose of the Fifth Amendment's privilege against being compelled to be a witness against yourself is, in part, to protect you in cases where the law REQUIRES YOUR TESTIMONY. The purpose of the Amendment is not to prevent Congress from enacting laws that require your testimony. The whole idea is that you assert the privilege.

As a general rule, in cases where you're not required by law to testify, there is no "need" to even have a Fifth Amendment provision regarding this privilege. If you're not legally required to testify, then why would you even need to claim the privilege? You would just say, "Sorry, bubba, I'm not answering that question."

Steve and others who have tried to argue that the Founding Fathers intended that the privilege was intended to prevent Congress from enacting laws requiring testimony, etc., etc., are wrong. They don't understand the purpose of the Amendment, and they don't understand how the privilege was intended to work.

[GoldandSilverEagles]

Regarding Steve's comment earlier about the likelihood of being investigated if you claim the Fifth Amendment on your tax return: Based on my experience, that is extremely unlikely. I have never actually had to do that for a client. However, I can tell you that I prepare hundreds of returns every year that include Form 8275 -- which is supposed to be a huge red flag for the Internal Revenue Service. In over 15 years of doing this, I have yet to see the IRS examine a return based on this red flag.

Merely writing "fifth amendment" to describe an item of income on a federal income tax return is probably much less of a red flag that including a Form 8275.

IRS personnel who post here can provide a more authoritative explanation than I can, Steve, but you have to understand that each IRS Service Center processes MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of tax returns each year. A line on a Form 1040 with the words "fifth amendment" on it is a needle in a haystack.

And what would the IRS do if an IRS employee saw that entry on your tax return? What is the IRS supposed to do? What could they do? Exactly what are they going to investigate? You've reported the income, you've (hopefully) computed the tax properly, you've (hopefully) paid the tax -- so, what crime is the IRS going to investigate? Is the IRS going to initiate a criminal investigation of you to find some crime that does not even involve tax evasion, etc., based on your assertion of the privilege on a tax return? An investigation of what? Let's get real, Steve.

I think layman (and laywomen??) have a warped view about what asserting the privilege really means, and how the assertion of the privilege affects the person asserting that privilege.

I myself would certainly assert the Fifth Amendment privilege for myself on a tax return (or anywhere else) -- even if I have committed no crime -- if I ever thought I should do so.

Check this out (Professor James Duane, Regent University Law School):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

You think that the Fifth Amendment's purpose was to prevent things like the requirement that we file a Form 1040? Is that what you're saying, Steve? Are you serious?

EDIT: Steve, the purpose of the Fifth Amendment's privilege against being compelled to be a witness against yourself is, in part, to protect you in cases where the law REQUIRES YOUR TESTIMONY. The purpose of the Amendment is not to prevent Congress from enacting laws that require your testimony. The whole idea is that you assert the privilege.

As a general rule, in cases where you're not required by law to testify, there is no "need" to even have a Fifth Amendment provision regarding this privilege. If you're not legally required to testify, then why would you even need to claim the privilege? You would just say, "Sorry, bubba, I'm not answering that question."

Steve and others who have tried to argue that the Founding Fathers intended that the privilege was intended to prevent Congress from enacting laws requiring testimony, etc., etc., are wrong. They don't understand the purpose of the Amendment, and they don't understand how the privilege was intended to work.

Since when did it become a "privilege" (exercising the 5th amendment) in order to protect one's self?

I almost 4got, "slaves" are granted "privileges" in order to protect themselves from one's "Masters".

[RyanMcC]

EDIT: In other words, Gold, if you're worried that you might incriminate yourself on a federal income tax return, that's not a legally valid excuse for not filing the return, or for lying on the return. If you earned $100,000 in illegal drug sales, simply report the income and label it "FIFTH AMENDMENT."

Wouldn't simply labeling the income "sales" be adequate as well?

Would you be able to deduct anything you paid to your drug mules as a "courier fee"? Okay, that might be pushing it..

[jkeeb]

I have prepared returns for prostitutes under the program that IRS has to prepare returns for low-income individuals. The income is reported on the line for "other income" and no expenses are allowed--forgot the code section or reg. The returns are processed normally and probably don't even generate a high DIF score.

I have seen other prepared returns with income on line 21 (depends on the year) with notations of illegal income. There is no procedure to report this to any higher ups and the electronic RTVUE does not show any notation. In fact, there are rules against reporting this beyond IRS.

However, screwing with the jurat with "fifth amendment" included, will get a return an extra look. There are specific rules for examiners regarding rewriting the jurat.

[Duke2Earl]

The income tax is illegal crowd isn't worried about the nature of their income. They aren't going to lie about the source and indeed aren't the slightest bit worried about income from illegal sources. What they are going to lie about is the AMOUNT. And they want to be free to lie about the amount of income and suffer no consequences. And somehow their distorted minds (or the vacancies that pass for minds) think the 5th amendment is implicated somehow...don't ask me how.

[Cpt Banjo]

Would you be able to deduct anything you paid to your drug mules as a "courier fee"? Okay, that might be pushing it..

This reminds me of an old case involving a conviction for willful failure to file a return, where the defendant had obtained his income from liquor activities during Prohibition. The decision, written by Justice Holmes, held that income from illegal activities is included in gross income and that the 5th Amendment did not absolve the defendant from refusing to file a return. It then concluded with this lovely paragraph:

It is urged that if a return were made the defendant would be entitled to deduct illegal expenses such as bribery. This by no means follows but it will be time enough to consider the question when a taxpayer has the temerity to raise it. U. S. v. Sullivan, 274 U.S. 259, 264 (1927)

The issue is now covered by Section 162(c), disallowing deductions for bribes and other illegal payments.

Holmes's comments on the 5th Amendment are also worth noting:

If the form of return provided called for answers that the defendant was privileged from making he could have raised the objection in the return, but could not on that account refuse to make any return at all. We are not called on to decide what, if anything, he might have withheld. Most of the items warranted no compaint. It would be an extreme if not an extravagant application of the Fifth Amendment to say that it authorized a man to refuse to state the amount of his income because it had been made in crime. But if the defendant desired to test that or any other point he should have tested it in the return so that it could be passed upon. He could not draw a conjurer's circle around the whole matter by his own declaration that to write any word upon the government blank would bring him into danger of the law. [citations omitted] In this case the defendant did not even make a declaration, he simply abstained from making a return.

[The Observer]

Locking this topic down as we near the 100 post limit since the thread no longer addresses the question of how many Quatloosians can dance on the cover of Das Kapital.