The Stupidity of the Slave Argument Redux #137

[Joey Smith]

Since the "slave" talk has come up again, it is also time for that question:

How can one be a "slave" when they are 100% perfectly free to leave at any time?

To the contrary, they are "slaves" only to their own stupidity.

[cynicalflyer]

If you bend the word "slave" to mean "anyone who owns a debt" then it "works", I suppose.

But the fact of the matter is that no one, especially and specifically the Founders, equated taxation per se with slavery. Now, taxation without meaningful representation (i.e. suffrage of those being taxed) was considered akin to slavery, but was not ever equated with actual slavery. Given that real, honest to goodness slavery existed at the time it would have been, er, ballsy to so claim. But, given that the TP squawkers are free to vote, that peters out, too.

[MSA]

I have one response when I see those people, I step around them and refuse to give tham any spare change.

They'd only accept Libbies, anyway.

[Pottapaug1938]

Either that, or they live somewhere well off the beaten track, living a nondescript life which they feel they don't deserve, are minimally educated, and live in a world of victimhood.

[Mr. Mephistopheles]

Either that, or they live somewhere well off the beaten track, living a nondescript life which they feel they don't deserve, are minimally educated, and live in a world of victimhood.

[grixit]

Actually, back then slaves did not pay taxes. Owners paid taxes.

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

I have one response when I see those people, I step around them and refuse to give tham any spare change.

They'd only accept Libbies, anyway.

That's just cruel, using their coin cup as a trash receptacle........

I nearly chocked on a m&m while reading that.

[GoldandSilverEagles]

Since the "slave" talk has come up again, it is also time for that question:

How can one be a "slave" when they are 100% perfectly free to leave at any time?

To the contrary, they are "slaves" only to their own stupidity.

I can hear a phrase that Yoda would likely respond with...'Such a small point of view you have.'

And yes, I did make that quote up. lol

This is a very easy issue to answer, minus your arrogance. lol

There are different forms and levels of being/becoming a "slave"

First off lets look at some definitions for "slave":

* Main Entry: 1slave
* Pronunciation: \ˈslāv\
* Function: noun
* Etymology: Middle English sclave, from Anglo-French or Medieval Latin; Anglo-French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclavus, from Sclavus Slavic; from the frequent enslavement of Slavs in central Europe during the early Middle Ages
* Date: 14th century

1 : a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
2 : one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence
3 : a device (as the printer of a computer) that is directly responsive to another
4 : drudge, toiler
— slave adjective

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slave

When I have used the word "slave" in Quatloos, I am referring to US citizens being financial "slaves" to the US government.

And yes, you are quite correct, US citizens are free to leave this country whenever they wish, barring they are not incarcerated, or released on any bond.

However, when a US citizen does leave this country, and earns "money" abroad, (i.e. outside of US jurisdiction, and or soil) the US government demands they are liable for income taxes due on said earnings. I find that definition 1 and 2 above are most fitting for my example.

The bottom line: Part of your earnings are owned by another entity. I can't think of a simpler way to put it.

Now the courts have ruled that no law requires you to work and if you don't work, your not liable for the tax.

Ahhh ha! Free at last!!! WooHoo!!! ~ Well, no... not exactly...

So, if US citizens decide not to work, what other legal financial alternatives does a US citizen have other than sucking off the welfare system?

And if the masses of US citizens decide to revolt by not working, who will fund the welfare systems?

The unfortunate part about my example is that US citizens (aka creations and slaves of the US government) will not like not appreciate hearing this, and I will likely be labeled harshly for doing so.

The US government created this legal status, the "US citizen". Since US citizens are the legal creations of the US government, they are also at their mercy, as are alll slaves to their Creator, their Master.

We the people created the US government. We are the CREATORS, and they are the Created.

It was v-e-r-y savvy, on their parts in how they turned that reality around when they created the "US citizen".

Now, I expect SHARP criticism to this post.

However, SHARP criticism does not change this reality, it's just makes the critic feel a little better.

[Demosthenes]

However, when a US citizen does leave this country, and earns "money" abroad, (i.e. outside of US jurisdiction, and or soil) the US government demands they are liable for income taxes due on said earnings.

Thanks for admitting that you are indeed aware of the laws that makes your income taxable.

[Imalawman]

Since the "slave" talk has come up again, it is also time for that question:

How can one be a "slave" when they are 100% perfectly free to leave at any time?

To the contrary, they are "slaves" only to their own stupidity.

I can hear a phrase that Yoda would likely respond with...'Such a small point of view you have.'

And yes, I did make that quote up. lol

This is a very easy issue to answer, minus your arrogance. lol

There are different forms and levels of being/becoming a "slave"

First off lets look at some definitions for "slave":

* Main Entry: 1slave
* Pronunciation: \ˈslāv\
* Function: noun
* Etymology: Middle English sclave, from Anglo-French or Medieval Latin; Anglo-French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclavus, from Sclavus Slavic; from the frequent enslavement of Slavs in central Europe during the early Middle Ages
* Date: 14th century

1 : a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
2 : one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence
3 : a device (as the printer of a computer) that is directly responsive to another
4 : drudge, toiler
— slave adjective

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slave

When I have used the word "slave" in Quatloos, I am referring to US citizens being financial "slaves" to the US government.

And yes, you are quite correct, US citizens are free to leave this country whenever they wish, barring they are not incarcerated, or released on any bond.

However, when a US citizen does leave this country, and earns "money" abroad, (i.e. outside of US jurisdiction, and or soil) the US government demands they are liable for income taxes due on said earnings. I find that definition 1 and 2 above are most fitting for my example.

The bottom line: Part of your earnings are owned by another entity. I can't think of a simpler way to put it.

Now the courts have ruled that no law requires you to work and if you don't work, your not liable for the tax.

Ahhh ha! Free at last!!! WooHoo!!! ~ Well, no... not exactly...

So, if US citizens decide not to work, what other legal financial alternatives does one have other than sucking off the welfare system?

And if the masses of US citizens decide to revolt by not working, who will fund the welfare systems?

The unfortunate part about my example is that US citizens (aka creations and slaves of the US government) will not like not appreciate hearing this, and I will likely be labeled harshly for doing so.

The US government created our legal status, the "US citizen". Since we are the legal creations of the US government, we are also at their mercy, as are alll slaves to their Creator,their Master.

We the people created the US government. We are the CREATORS, and they are the Created.

It was v-e-r-y savvy, on their parts in how they turned that reality around when they created the "US citizen".

Now, I expect SHARP criticism to this post.

However, SHARP criticism does not change this reality, it's just makes the critic feel a little better.

So, if the US Government imposes high tariffs on all goods imported into this country would that cause you to be a slave?

If we got rid of the income tax, but kept the other taxes, would you still be a slave?

Could we still have government and you not be a slave? Or is your only solution to not have a government?

[jcolvin2]

However, when a US citizen does leave this country, and earns "money" abroad, (i.e. outside of US jurisdiction, and or soil) the US government demands they are liable for income taxes due on said earnings.

Thanks for admitting that you are indeed aware of the laws that makes your income taxable.

There is a fairly health foreign earned income exclusion. In 2009, the amount is $91,400. No US tax is due at all on foreign earned income in amounts less than or equal to $91,400. The US only taxes unearned foreign income and earned foreign income in excess of $91,400. Moreover, if you are paying taxes to another country, the foreign tax credit will come into play. If you reside in another advanced industrial democracy, little or no US tax will be due, because of the operation of the exclusion and the credit.

[BBFlatt]

So, if US citizens decide not to work, what other legal financial alternatives does one have other than sucking off the welfare system?

I've always considered subsistance farming to be an almost perfect tax sheltering activity.

[Brandybuck]

Could we still have government and you not be a slave? Or is your only solution to not have a government?

A radical anarcho-libertarian would say that anyone accepting the authority of a government is a slave. And if you take their logic to its extreme, they're somewhat right. But it's used as a rhetorical device.

Paranoid Paytriot People, on the other hand, seem to use the word "slave" as meaning anyone but themselves. If you pay taxes, you're a slave. If you have a mortgage, you're a slave. If the cops tell you to turn down your music at 2:00am because it's keeping the neighbors awake, you're a slave.

[wserra]

Paranoid Paytriot People, on the other hand, seem to use the word "slave" as meaning anyone but themselves.

Actually, they seem to reserve it for people a lot better off than they are.

[GoldandSilverEagles]

However, when a US citizen does leave this country, and earns "money" abroad, (i.e. outside of US jurisdiction, and or soil) the US government demands they are liable for income taxes due on said earnings.

Thanks for admitting that you are indeed aware of the laws that makes your income taxable.

Talk about twisted logic. LMAO!!! I have admitted nothing. LOL! ~ Being aware of what the US government demands is not an admission of any liability, or make me liable in any way, shape, or form. LOL!!

This info is readily available online. I obtained the info online. Does that make me liable because I have access to the internet? Lol....

[Famspear]

However, when a US citizen does leave this country, and earns "money" abroad, (i.e. outside of US jurisdiction, and or soil) the US government demands they are liable for income taxes due on said earnings.

Thanks for admitting that you are indeed aware of the laws that makes your income taxable.

Talk about twisted logic. LMAO!!! I have admitted nothing. LOL! ~ Being aware of what the US government demands is not an admission of any liability, or make me liable in any way, shape, or form. LOL!!

This info is readily available online. I obtained the info online. Does that make me liable because I have access to the internet? Lol....

Liability is not dependent on whether you "admit" liability, pal. Refusing to admit liability has no legal effect.

[Randall]

However, when a US citizen does leave this country, and earns "money" abroad, (i.e. outside of US jurisdiction, and or soil) the US government demands they are liable for income taxes due on said earnings.

Thanks for admitting that you are indeed aware of the laws that makes your income taxable.

Talk about twisted logic. LMAO!!! I have admitted nothing. LOL! ~ Being aware of what the US government demands is not an admission of any liability, or make me liable in any way, shape, or form. LOL!!

This info is readily available online. I obtained the info online. Does that make me liable because I have access to the internet? Lol....

So....not only have you been shown the law, you have found it on your own.

[GoldandSilverEagles]

So, if the US Government imposes high tariffs on all goods imported into this country would that cause you to be a slave?

Ok, Mr. Lawman I'll play your game.

No. I am well aware that excise taxes are placed on articles that one purchases. They are a voluntary tax. If you don't want to pay the tax, don't buy the widgets.

If we got rid of the income tax, but kept the other taxes, would you still be a slave?

This isn't about me, it about the people of our country. To answer your question, that depends on what "other taxes" you are referring to.

Could we still have government and you not be a slave?

I have no problem with constitutional consumption taxes, unless lawyers find some loop-holes to slip the income tax into that taxing category.

Or is your only solution to not have a government?

If the government does business down the barrel of a gun, then I say no.

People believe there are many forms of government, I am only aware of two.

1. the people control the government.

2. The government controls the people.

I believe all governments are off shoots of these.

[Famspear]

Gold, this may help you a bit.

First distinguish between liability for the tax and criminal culpability.

LIABILITY FOR THE FEDERAL INCOME TAX

Example: If you receive $50,000 in a particular year in compensation for services you perform for someone else and you have no offsetting deductions other than the standard deduction and personal exemption, you have liability for federal income tax. There is nothing you can admit or not admit that will change that. It's the law.

Further, your "awareness" of the tax law is irrelevant. You owe the tax regardless of whether you are aware of the law or not. You also owe the tax whether or not you have "seen" the law. Period.

CRIMINAL CULPABILITY

If you are charged with federal tax evasion, the government has to prove three things to convict you.

First, the government must prove that a federal tax was owed. Again whether you were "aware" of the law or whether you had "seen" the law is legally irrelevant on the issue of whether the tax was owed.

Second, the government must prove an affirmative act on your part to evade or defeat either the assessment of the tax or the payment of the tax. A mere failure to act is not enough to make you criminally culpable under section 7201 (though a mere failure to act could be enough for other tax crimes, such as willfully failing to file a tax return or pay the tax).

Third, the government must prove that you acted "willfully." This means that there was the voluntary, intentional violation of a KNOWN legal duty. There is no requirement that you have "seen" the law -- only a requirement that you were AWARE OF THE EXISTENCE of the law. The fact that you have been posting in this Quatloos forum could be used against you to persuade a jury that you are AWARE of the law.

Note: The fact that you disagree with the proposition that you owe the tax IS NOT IN AND OF ITSELF A VALID LEGAL DEFENSE. You can "believe" that the law doesn't make you liable for the tax and YET AT THE SAME TIME be AWARE of the EXISTENCE of the law.

Gold, what the Supreme Court has ruled is that an actual good faith belief based on a MISUNDERSTANDING that is CAUSED by the COMPLEXITY of the tax law may be a valid defense -- that is, this KIND of actual belief may negate "willfulness."

Notice, that not just any old actual belief will necessarily work. As the appeals court stated in the Willie case, an actual belief is not necessarily enough. The actual belief must be the KIND of actual belief that negates WILLFULNESS.

People who post on the internet in places like Quatloos are in effect creating a "record" that can be used against them on the issue of willfulness -- which again relates to the voluntary, intentional violation of a KNOWN legal duty.

The key is AWARENESS of the law -- and an actual belief that the various courts' interpretations are somehow "wrong" will not necessarily negate criminal culpability.

[GoldandSilverEagles]

My my...the Quatloos 'spin doctors' of the income tax have been burning up their keyboards 2day...