The Stupidity of the Slave Argument Redux #137

[jg]

You must be ignorant of the fact that a church does not usually file anything to be tax exempt.
Indeed, some churches choose to file the form and have financial information recorded with the IRS; but the vast majority of churches never have to file any tax form.

See http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf for more information:

Congress has enacted special tax laws applicable to churches, religious organizations, and ministers in recognition of their unique status in American society and of their rights guaranteed by the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States. Churches and religious organizations are generally exempt from income tax and receive other favorable treatment under the tax law; however, certain income of a church or religious organization may be subject to tax, such as income from an unrelated business.

later on page 3:

Automatic Exemption for Churches
Churches that meet the requirements of IRC section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS.
Although there is no requirement to do so, many churches seek recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS because such recognition assures church leaders, members, and contributors that the church is recognized as exempt and qualifies for related tax benefits. For example, contributors to a church that has been recognized as tax exempt would know that their contributions generally are tax-deductible.

What contract do you imagine a church might have with the government?

[GoldandSilverEagles]

You must be ignorant of the fact that a church does not usually file anything to be tax exempt. Nope. I am well aware of that fact, though most churches are not.


Indeed, some churches choose to file the form and have financial information recorded with the IRS; but the vast majority of churches never have to file any tax form. Wrong. NO CHURCH has to file said contractual agreements to be tax exempt.

See http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf for more information:

Congress has enacted special tax laws applicable to churches, religious organizations, and ministers in recognition of their unique status in American society and of their rights guaranteed by the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States. Churches and religious organizations are generally exempt from income tax and receive other favorable treatment under the tax law; however, certain income of a church or religious organization may be subject to tax, such as income from an unrelated business.

later on page 3:

Automatic Exemption for Churches
Churches that meet the requirements of IRC section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS.
Although there is no requirement to do so, many churches seek recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS because such recognition assures church leaders, members, and contributors that the church is recognized as exempt and qualifies for related tax benefits. For example, contributors to a church that has been recognized as tax exempt would know that their contributions generally are tax-deductible.

What contract do you imagine a church might have with the government?

A "contract', an agreement of incorporation, per 26 usc 501(c)3.

[.]

since I have not filed since the early 90's

Ah, yes, it's always good to publicly admit to what is either willful failure to file and/or outright evasion for each of the last 15 or so years.

Unless, of course, you are so impecunious that you haven't had gross income in excess of the exemption amounts and standard deductions to which you were entitled in every one of those years. Other than that, I predict that you will ultimately come to regret your crowing about your actions or lack thereof on a board such as this.

[Pottapaug1938]

I was remembering, this morning, that one of the classical Marxist/Communist arguments against capitalism was that, under it, workers were just "wage slaves"; and that under a Marxist/Communist system, the workers would own the means of production and would be working for their own benefit, not the benefit of some rich capitalist. Absolute BS, of course; but my point here is not to discuss Marxism.

My point is that tossing around the "slave" label is easy to do; but if you went back in time and talked to the slaves in North America, or even go over to Africa and Asia today where slavery is still practiced and talk to slaves -- by which I mean people held to uncompensated service or labor, as the property of another, you'd see a BIG difference between THEIR kind of slavery and any kind about which you may choose to whine. Then, I hope, you's realize how lucky you were not to be a REAL slave....

[LPC]

I have "tithed," giving away one tenth of the first fruits to those who provided spiritual growth to me, even though those gifts were not deductible. Can you say the same?

I give FRN's away for metaphysical purposes. FRN's are energy, thus they follow the laws certain of energy. One of them is the 'law of circulation'. If you want more of something, give it away! Put it into circulation! Give it away to someone, AND IT WILL COME BACK!!!

With that I would agree.

Can you say that you have tithed for purely spiritual reasons and without any expectation of a tax deduction?

Somewhat. I have tithed for spiritual purposes, and for purposes of material gain, but since I have not filed since the early 90's, i can claim I've done it for reasons outside of a tax deduction.

Sorry to hear about what would be either your past financial troubles or your future legal troubles.

[GoldandSilverEagles]

since I have not filed since the early 90's

Ah, yes, it's always good to publicly admit to what is either willful failure to file and/or outright evasion for each of the last 15 or so years.

Unless, of course, you are so impecunious that you haven't had gross income in excess of the exemption amounts and standard deductions to which you were entitled in every one of those years. Other than that, I predict that you will ultimately come to regret your crowing about your actions or lack thereof on a board such as this.

The thing that kills me about attitudes like this, other than ones arrogance/snobbery in filling their egos need for using big words in order to impress others (i.e. impecunious...definition: lack of cash) rather than talking in plain English, is that you think the irs doesnt already know about this.

I've written them for years asking all sorts of questions under the sun. They know where to find me. Years ago I was under federal indictment (on non tax related charges,) and released.

The feds know where to find me if they want me. It is clear that I am not doing anything that would cause for them to want to locate me/serve me/indict me, since they have done none of those things after I was released from federal custody years ago.

...Toto I don't think we're in Kansas anymore....

[Duke2Earl]

[ You folks have so-o sold yourself on the mirage that you (think) you know me...so well. You folks don't know squat about me. Yet your huge ego's demand that you keep insisting that you do.

I know you are a self confessed criminal. I know you have no connection to actual reality. I know you lie. I know you haven't a clue what slavery actually entails. I know you are so full of excrement that your eyes are undoubably brown. All this I know from what you have written here... or did you lie about that as well? What else do I need to know?

[Gregg]

The thing that kills me about attitudes like this, other than ones arrogance/snobbery in filling their egos need for using big words in order to impress others (i.e. impecunious...definition: lack of cash) rather than talking in plain English, is that you think the irs doesnt already know about this.

I've written them for years asking all sorts of questions under the sun. They know where to find me. Years ago I was under federal indictment (on non tax related charges,) and released.

The feds know where to find me if they want me. It is clear that I am not doing anything that would cause for them to want to locate me/serve me/indict me, since they have done none of those things after I was released from federal custody years ago.

...Toto I don't think we're in Kansas anymore....

Forgive me, I have trouble keeping up with your stories, imaginary friends and whatnot, but is this the indictment where Irwin Schiff got you off scot free with only a month (or a year, whatever)?

[Demosthenes]

Yes. Lindsey and i go back to the early '90's. He helped me in a federal case and his help won me a victory.

Years ago I was under federal indictment where I made the very stupid mistake in showing an undercover narc (my neighbor, at the time,) an 'illegal' explosive (illegal in that I did not possess a 'license') . He turned me in and I was facing up to 30 years. Lindsey got me off with a year of jail time. His plea was based on lack of jurisdiction in that the explosive had not entered into interstate commerce. He was right and we won!

Years ago I was under federal indictment (on non tax related charges,) and released.

Why can't I find a docket number for your case in PACER?

[ASITStands]

Yes. Lindsey and i go back to the early '90's. He helped me in a federal case and his help won me a victory.

Years ago I was under federal indictment where I made the very stupid mistake in showing an undercover narc (my neighbor, at the time,) an 'illegal' explosive (illegal in that I did not possess a 'license') . He turned me in and I was facing up to 30 years. Lindsey got me off with a year of jail time. His plea was based on lack of jurisdiction in that the explosive had not entered into interstate commerce. He was right and we won!

Years ago I was under federal indictment (on non tax related charges,) and released.

Why can't I find a docket number for your case in PACER.

Uh? Because you don't know where to look? I have both the docket and case from Lexis.

As I attempted to explain a long time ago, "Gold and Silver Eagles" was indeed released on time served (less than a year) for a misdemeanor charge, with the felony charge dropped.

And, yes, Lindsey Springer had something to do with it.

I'll not say more without GaSE's permission, so don't ask.

[Demosthenes]

Is the case pre-PACER?

[Imalawman]

So, if the US Government imposes high tariffs on all goods imported into this country would that cause you to be a slave?

Ok, Mr. Lawman I'll play your game.

No. I am well aware that excise taxes are placed on articles that one purchases. They are a voluntary tax. If you don't want to pay the tax, don't buy the widgets.

The income tax is voluntary - just deal with exempt funds. Become a pastor or deal only with Municipal Bonds. Or make money from overseas work and make less than the exclusion allowance. Finally, you do not have to stay here, you can go anywhere and renounce citizenship. btw - have you ever read Nozick's theory of distributive justice? You would probably like it and your arguments would at least have some semblance of coherence to them.

You're an odd one for sure.

[ASITStands]

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

Translation - the federal government has an absolute right and the absolute ability to tax your income/wages/earnings (or any other related synonym). A matter you seem to keep avoiding. I have a few ideas why you refuse to acknowledge the governmental right, but there are women and children reading this.

Reading Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co., 157 U.S. 429 (1895), the second decision, "[P]rior to the adoption of the Constitution ... Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Delaware, New Jersey, Virginia, and South Carolina assessed their citizens upon their profits from professions, trades, and employments." At 559.

And, reading Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co., 158 U.S. 601 (1895), the first decision, "At the time the Constitution was framed and adopted, under the systems of direct taxation of many of the States, taxes were laid on incomes from professions, business, or employments, as well as from "offices and places of profit."" At 632.

In other words, the Power of Congress to tax incomes from professions, business, trades, employments, and offices and places of profit, changed little from before the Amendment to after, notwithstanding the interpretation placed on it by most tax deniers.

I'm not suggesting "Gold and Silver Eagles" is denying an income tax or denying liability.

GaSE thinks he is being oh so clever by not filing and only working jobs where he gets paid in cash (a supposition on my part). I bet GaSE does not travel either (or does so on a limited basis) which has caused him to have a small, myopic, narrow, bucolic view of the world, which effectively stops at the horizon for him. And yet he probably knowingly or unknowingly uses a number of services that are funded in part, or in their entirety by income taxes, which implies by extension that GaSE lives a double standard. Sad. Very sad.

I think GaSE should very well have reserved silence in regard to his filing or not.

[ASITStands]

Is the case pre-PACER?

Nope.

[GoldandSilverEagles]

Now, getting back on point there GaSE, the 16th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States states: "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

Can you, in a reasonably brief fashion, explain why you think the federal government does not have the right and privilege to tax your income (earnings, wages, or other related synonyms)? You have avoided the issue, or just refused to address it and yet as an Amendment to the Constitution it is the highest law possible.

You're not one of those people that only obeys the law(s) when it is in your favor, and break any laws that do not work in your favor are you? Please say no, please say no, please say no.

No...no...no

More later, my roomy needs the PC.

[Brandybuck]

No...no...no

More later, my roomy needs the PC.

Another excuse. It's been over a day and he still hasn't answered. Does he think we're going to forget that he hasn't answered the question?

[GoldandSilverEagles]

No...no...no

More later, my roomy needs the PC.

Another excuse. It's been over a day and he still hasn't answered. Does he think we're going to forget that he hasn't answered the question?

Are you a government agent? You sound just like one.

Tell me something funny boy: B4 I answer the Capt's question, exactly what obligation do I have to answer any questions posted to me? lol

Once you answer my question, with an intelligent answer, then I will begin answering The Captains.

Your clock is ticking.....

[Brandybuck]

Are you a government agent? You sound just like one.

No, I'm just this guy. Why do you think I'm a government agent? Have you been dodging their questions too?

Tell me something funny boy: B4 I answer the Capt's question, exactly what obligation do I have to answer any questions posted to me? lol

You have no obligation whatsoever. But the question has been asked three times already, and you have dodged answering it for two days. You claim you don't have time to answer it, yet you appear to have time to respond to other posts. Methinks you're stalling.

The question asked is BASIC and CENTRAL to the entire tax denial movement, that I cannot imagine that you need yet further time to consider it. Surely you have a ready answer at hand. So what is it?

[Paul]

The moron really doesn't understand a word anyone is saying.

[Tax Man]

No...no...no

More later, my roomy needs the PC.

Another excuse. It's been over a day and he still hasn't answered. Does he think we're going to forget that he hasn't answered the question?

Depends on what the roommate looks like and how short her shorts are.........