Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

The Operative
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by The Operative »

Harvester wrote: Yes of course "Wages" are remuneration for employment, the statutes make that clear as "wages" is custom-defined. And as such they qualify as "income" and of course income under the Revenue Acts is taxable. Fortunately for me, and millions of other patriotic Americans, our coffers are full of money that does not qualify as income. AND WE LEGALLY PAY NO INCOME TAX !
Nonsense. You might not be paying income taxes, but if you earn more than any allowed deductions, then you are NOT doing so legally.
Harvester wrote:
The Operative wrote:Even if all a person does is to make their employer happy, that is still a service.
But is it a statutory "service?"
More nonsense. If a person is paid by another person for cutting that person's yard, that is compensation for a service performed and is included in gross income. If a person works at a manufacturing company assembling product, the pay they receive for performing that work is compensation for service and is included in gross income.
Harvester wrote:
The basic argument CTC makes, which is beyond silly, is that the portion of the statute that says "includes" government employees limits the scope of the statement to government employees.
No, that's incorrect. Have you read CTC? It argues that the term "employee" itself is custom defined to a very limited subset of workers. Why custom define such a commonly used word as employee? If all common-term employees make income there's no need to custom define it. Quite simply, they do it to limit the statute to that which Congress can legally tax (it's own stuff/workers).
It is you that are incorrect. The reason there is a definition for certain terms within the tax laws is to ensure that certain classes ARE INCLUDED in the standard definition. It does NOT exclude any other class that is normally within the definition of the term.
Harvester wrote:CTC is correct.
No, it is not. Not even close.
Harvester wrote:But please, continue to argue your losing loyalist proposition which advocates an unconstitutional taking of property rightfully mine. It's fun to watch y'all. And we rebels are taking notes.
Sure. I will keep enjoying my two homes, three cars and other nice things. You can keep practicing and someday you might get promoted from that fry cook position.
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak.
Famspear
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Famspear »

Harvester wrote:Ha! You're not fooling all of us Fambozo, I mean Famspire.
Yes of course "Wages" are remuneration for employment, the statutes make that clear as "wages" is custom-defined.
Yes, wages are custom-defined. But it's custom-defined the way I say it is, not the way Peter Hendrickson says it is. And guess what? The courts agree with me.
CTC is correct.
No. CtC is a tax scam, and it has lost every single time in court.
But please, continue to argue your losing loyalist proposition which advocates an unconstitutional taking of property rightfully mine. It's fun to watch y'all. And we rebels are taking notes.
My proposition isn't "losing," and it isn't "loyalist." And my proposition doesn't advocate an "unconstitutional taking" of your property.

What's the matter with you, Harvester? Really? No matter how many "notes" you "rebels" take, you are losers. You will always be losers. You will be losers in court, and you will continue to be losers in life. Don't like it? Too bad.

8)
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
LPC
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by LPC »

Harvester wrote:
Prof wrote:The basic argument CTC makes, which is beyond silly, is that the portion of the statute that says "includes" government employees limits the scope of the statement to government employees.
No, that's incorrect. Have you read CTC? It argues that the term "employee" itself is custom defined to a very limited subset of workers.
Specifically, CtC argues that the term "employee" is custom defined to a very limited subset of workers, namely government workers.

Which is what Prof said.

From an excerpt from CtC published on Hendrickson's own website:
Peter Hendrickson wrote:It is clear that the common characteristic of those in the enumerated list of "employees" in this special definition [in 26 USC 3401(c)] is that of being someone paid by the federal government (or an entity created and/or controlled by the federal government) for services rendered.
Seriously, we've been through this before. Are you claiming that Hendrickson doesn't mean what he says?
Harvester wrote:Why custom define such a commonly used word as employee?
Congress didn't "custom define" the word "employee," but wanted to make sure that government employees and corporate officers are subject to withholding.
Harvester wrote:If all common-term employees make income there's no need to custom define it.
Which is why Congress didn't "custom define" the word "employee," but just expanded the meaning to make sure that government employees and corporate officers are subject to withholding.
Harvester wrote:Quite simply, they do it to limit the statute to that which Congress can legally tax (it's own stuff/workers).
An interpretation of the Constitution for which you have no authority whatsoever, and which is contradicted by numerous Supreme Court opinions, such as Charles C. Steward Machine Co. v. Davis, 301 U.S. 548, 580-581 (1937):
Supreme Court wrote:“But natural rights, so called, are as much subject to taxation as rights of lesser importance. An excise is not limited to vocations or activities that may be prohibited altogether. It is not limited to those that are the outcome of a franchise. It extends to vocations or activities pursued as of common right.”
As well as countless Circuit Court opinions, such as:
“Turning first to their basic contention, indeed the one on which all the others rest, that the relation of domestic employment does not come within Art. 1, Section 8, and is therefore immune from the imposition of federal taxes and burdens, we find ourselves in no doubt that appellants are neither historically nor etymologically correct in their claim in substance that excises are limited to taxes laid on the manufacture, sale or consumption of commodities within the country, upon licenses to pursue certain occupation and upon corporate privileges only. It is true that taxes of the kind referred to are excise taxes but it is also true, as was held in Steward Machine Co. v. Davis, that the excises which Congress has power to impose are not limited to vocations or activities which may be prohibited altogether or to those which are the outcome of a franchise, but extend to vocations or activities pursued as of common right. The term ‘excise’ is and was before and at the time of the adoption of the Constitution a term of very wide meaning.”
Abney v. Campbell, 206 F.2d 836, 841 (5th Cir. 1953), cert. den. 346 U.S. 924 (1954).
“[Hamzik] contends only that he does not have a tax liability and subsequent deficiency because all federal income taxes are ‘indirect taxes’ and the Commissioner has not produced the statutes defining the ‘revenue taxable activity’ that would make Hamzik subject to or liable for any tax under Title 26. The tax court properly rejected Hamzik’s arguments as frivolous.”
Hamzik v. Commissioner, 25 Fed. Appx. 911, KTC 2001-589 (9th Cir. 2001), (affirming the decision of the Tax Court and imposing sanctions of $250 for bringing a frivolous appeal).
“Furthermore, Olson’s attempt to escape tax by deducting his wages as ‘cost of labor’ and by claiming that he had obtained no privilege from a governmental agency illustrate the frivolous nature of his position. This court has repeatedly rejected the argument that wages are not income as frivolous, [citations omitted] and has also rejected the idea that a person is liable for tax only if he benefits from a governmental privilege.”
Olson v. United States, 760 F.2d 1003, 1005 (9th Cir. 1985).
“All individuals, freeborn and nonfreeborn, natural and unnatural alike, must pay federal income tax on their wages, regardless of whether they have requested, obtained or exercised any privilege from the federal government."
United States v. Sloan, 939 F.2d 499, 501 (7th Cir. 1991), cert. den. 112 S.Ct. 940 (1992).
“Similarly, Latham’s instruction which indicated that under 26 U.S.C. § 3401(c) the category of ‘employee’ does not include privately employed wage earners is a preposterous reading of the statute. It is obvious that within the context of both statutes the word ‘includes’ is a term of enlargement not of limitation, and the reference to certain entities or categories is not intended to exclude all others.”
United States v. Latham, 754 F.2d 747, 750 (7th Cir. 1985).
“To the extent Sullivan argues that he received no ‘wages’ in 1983 because he was not an ‘employee’ within the meaning of 26 U.S.C. § 3401(c), that contention is meritless. Section 3401(c), which relates to income tax withholding, indicates that the definition of ‘employee’ includes government officers and employees, elected officials, and corporate officers. The statute does not purport to limit withholding to the persons listed therein.”
Sullivan v. United States, 788 F.2d 813, 815 (1st Cir. 1986).
“Petitioner’s assertion that he is not a person required to pay tax as he is not an officer, employee or elected official of the United States, a State, or any political subdivision thereof, or of a corporation, is wholly meritless.”
United States v. Rice, 659 F.2d 524, 528 (5th Cir. 1981).
“[P]laintiff’s claim that only public officials can be taxed is completely frivolous and without merit.”
McAffee v. United States, 84 AFTR2d ¶99-5536(N.D.Ga. 1999) (sanctions imposed in the amount of $500 for filing a frivolous claim).
Dan Evans
Foreman of the Unified Citizens' Grand Jury for Pennsylvania
(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
Nikki

Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Nikki »

BREAKING NEWS :!:

Harvester just got the role of the Scarecrow in the upcoming remake of The Wizard Of Oz based primarily on his heartfelt rendition of the Scarecrow's theme song.

Those who heard it commented that he sounded like he was singing it as his own personal theme song.
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Thule »

Nikki wrote:BREAKING NEWS :!:

Harvester just got the role of the Scarecrow in the upcoming remake of The Wizard Of Oz based primarily on his heartfelt rendition of the Scarecrow's theme song..
Bahhh. Leave to Harv to parrot some age-old song instead of coming up with something of his own.
Survivor of the Dark Agenda Whistleblower Award, August 2012.
Optimus Prime

Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Optimus Prime »

Lets look at this statement.
The Operative wrote:If a person(B) is paid by another person (A)for cutting that person's yard, that is compensation for a service performed and is included in gross income.
A true statement.
This is a service because the relationship between person A and person B is that of a customer and a service provider. The customer pays the price determined by the service provider. The customer is paying for the result of the service provider's labor (a mowed lawn).

Now,if the relationship between person A and person B was that of employer-employee. The employee would receive the price (hourly wage) determined by the employer. The employer would be paying for the employee's labor (time on job), not for the result of that labor (a mowed lawn).

Now, let's combine these two "If a person (B) is paid by another person(A) for cutting that person's yard and person (B) employs person (C) to do the actual work, then person (B) is receiving compensation for a service and person (C) is receiving compensation for service.

I have just used the word "service" in two different contexts within the same sentence.

In the first context, "a service" is a thing purchased by a consumer with no physical characteristics, and it can be represented by its plural usage "services".

In the second context, "service" is a singular act between the employer and the employee. Where the latter places himself under the direction and control of the former.
There is no plural usage in this context.

The Congress of the United States understands the difference between these contexts and has constructed the definitions of wages with this understanding.

Section 3121 wages is constructed with the context of "service". All usage of service is in the singular and is not preceded with an "a" marking it as an article.

Section 3401 wages is constructed with the context of "a service". All usage of service is in the plural as "services".

Section 61 is constructed on the context of "a service" as it states; "compensation for services"; including commissions, fees, fringe benefits and similar items.

Commissions are paid to an agent or employee for transacting a piece of business or for performing a service. Calculated as a percentage on the amount of his transactions or on the profits to the principal. (Employee performs the services of the employer for the customer.)

Fees are a recompense for an official or professional service. (Customer pays a fee to the government or a business(employer) for a particular service; Employer uses fee to pay employee for performing that service.)

Fringe Benefits are side, non-wage benefits which accompany or are in addition to a person's employment such as paid insurance, recreational facilities, sick leave, profit-sharing plans, paid holidays and vacations, etc. (Benefits are paid from the profits of a business)
Nikki

Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Nikki »

Interesting logic.

Now, all you have to do is explain how your conclusion is totally different from the result of every single court case which has decided that wages and salaries are gross income for the purpose of computing income taxes.
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Pottapaug1938
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

Nikki wrote:Interesting logic.

Now, all you have to do is explain how your conclusion is totally different from the result of every single court case which has decided that wages and salaries are gross income for the purpose of computing income taxes.
It's very simple -- Optimus has found "magic words" which, presto-changeo, make the income tax go "poof!" and vanish in a puff of CtC smoke.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture." -- Pastor Ray Mummert, Dover, PA, during an attempt to introduce creationism -- er, "intelligent design", into the Dover Public Schools
The Operative
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by The Operative »

Optimus Prime wrote:Lets look at this statement.
The Operative wrote:If a person(B) is paid by another person (A)for cutting that person's yard, that is compensation for a service performed and is included in gross income.
A true statement.
This is a service because the relationship between person A and person B is that of a customer and a service provider. The customer pays the price determined by the service provider. The customer is paying for the result of the service provider's labor (a mowed lawn).

Now,if the relationship between person A and person B was that of employer-employee. The employee would receive the price (hourly wage) determined by the employer. The employer would be paying for the employee's labor (time on job), not for the result of that labor (a mowed lawn).
Nonsense. An employer pays an hourly wage expecting a certain level of productivity or results. In both cases, each person is being paid for their productivity which was accomplished through their labor. Whether a person receives money for cutting a lawn or receives money from an employer, it is income.
Optimus Prime wrote:Now, let's combine these two "If a person (B) is paid by another person(A) for cutting that person's yard and person (B) employs person (C) to do the actual work, then person (B) is receiving compensation for a service and person (C) is receiving compensation for service.

I have just used the word "service" in two different contexts within the same sentence.
Person 'B' has a lawn care business and one employee (Person 'C') that he pays $10 per hour. Person 'A' pays Person 'B' $50 for lawn care. Person 'B' and Person 'C' perform the lawn maintenance and it takes one hour. Person 'C' is paid by Person 'B' for performing lawn care work or $10. That is an expense for Person 'B' and gross income for Person 'C'. The $50 that Person 'A' paid to Person 'B' was for performing lawn care work and that amount, less allowable expenses, is gross income to Person 'B'.
Optimus Prime wrote:In the first context, "a service" is a thing purchased by a consumer with no physical characteristics, and it can be represented by its plural usage "services".

In the second context, "service" is a singular act between the employer and the employee. Where the latter places himself under the direction and control of the former.
There is no plural usage in this context.

The Congress of the United States understands the difference between these contexts and has constructed the definitions of wages with this understanding.
<SNIP>
Let's assume that your semantical games are correct. They are not, but we will assume they are. Section 61 clearly states...
Except as otherwise provided in this subtitle, gross income means all income from whatever source derived, including (but not limited to) the following items:
Even if "compensation for services" does not mean wages paid by an employer to an employee, wages are still a part of "all income". Also, the statute clearly states that gross income is NOT limited to the list that follows.

http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#wagesincome
http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/ ... /wages.htm
http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#wages
http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#property
http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#wagesource
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silversopp

Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by silversopp »

Harvester wrote:If all common-term employees make income there's no need to custom define it. Quite simply, they do it to limit the statute to that which Congress can legally tax (it's own stuff/workers)
If Congress can only legally tax "it's own stuff/workers" how would the government ever acquire "stuff/workers" in the first place? It would not have any stuff to tax to buy the original stuff.

Once it does somehow acquire stuff and workers, the following year it would have to lay off a majority of the workers since it wouldn't have the revenue to continue paying them. The next year even more layoffs. The government would collapse within a few years.

Start with 100 workers and a 20% tax rate. The next year, it would have collected 20% of the wages the government paid out to the workers. 80 employees would have to be fired. The second year, it would collect 20% from the remaining 20 employees. 16 employees would have to be fired.

The government couldn't impose tariffs, as that would be taxing someone else's "stuff".

How does this make any sense whatsoever?
Famspear
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Famspear »

Harvester wrote:If all common-term employees make income there's no need to custom define it.
No. That is completely incorrect. It's also illogical.

The reason the statute is worded the way it is has already been clearly explained by the United States Supreme Court itself, and here in the pages of Quatloos.

This is an example of the way that tax protesters strraaaaaaiiiiinnnnn to try to find some ridiculous argument.
Quite simply, they do it to limit the statute to that which Congress can legally tax (it's own stuff/workers)
No. That is incorrect. That is an argument made up by Harvester. That is not the reason Congress wrote the statute the way it did. Again, this has already been explained IN DEPTH right here in the pages of Quatloos. The United States Supreme Court has already explained why the law is worded the way it is. Sorry Harvester, but your argument is nonsense.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
Harvester

Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Harvester »

The Operative wrote:Whether a person receives money for cutting a lawn or receives money from an employer, it is income.
No, for tax purposes not necessarily income. The lawncutter could be exercising their common law right to trade. Ha, your cites to Dan Evans/LPC & Prof Siegel are comical; they are known tax-shills, not really helping your argument dude!

FAMSHEPARD! So good to hear from you again. 2 days without someone to guide the sheople back into the taxpayer pen is hard to bear. I think some were getting a notion (that maybe .... just maybe, all that glitters IS NOT income, and hence, not gross income). Stand tall warriors, we're winning!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 30206.html
Famspear
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Famspear »

Harvester wrote:
The Operative wrote:Whether a person receives money for cutting a lawn or receives money from an employer, it is income.
No, for tax purposes not necessarily income. The lawncutter could be exercising their common law right to trade.
Baloney. There is no exemption for a "common law right to trade." The receipt of the money is income.
Ha, your cites to Dan Evans/LPC & Prof Siegel are comical; they are known tax-shills, not really helping your argument dude!
No, they're not "comical." They're not funny, and you don't find them funny or comical. You're engaging in the usual Harvester tax protester rhetoric.
FAMSHEPARD! So good to hear from you again. 2 days without someone to guide the sheople back into the taxpayer pen is hard to bear. I think some were getting a notion (that maybe .... just maybe, all that glitters IS NOT income, and hence, not gross income). Stand tall warriors, we're winning!
"Stand tall warriors, were winning"??

Don't you feel embarrassed spouting nonsense like that?

Nobody claims that "all that glitters is income." More nonsense from you.

Nothing changes, Harvester.

8)

EDIT: Harvester, why don't you send that "stand tall warriors, we're winning" message to the two children of the Fabulous Felon, the Haughty Hendrickson, the PontificatingPrisonBoundPeterMeister? That should really help the kids (actually, I think the daughter is grown) as they watch their father go back to prison.

Yeah, "Stand tall warriors, were winning!!!"
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
LPC
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by LPC »

Obtuseness Prime wrote:Lets look at this statement.
The Operative wrote:If a person(B) is paid by another person (A)for cutting that person's yard, that is compensation for a service performed and is included in gross income.
A true statement.
This is a service because the relationship between person A and person B is that of a customer and a service provider. The customer pays the price determined by the service provider. The customer is paying for the result of the service provider's labor (a mowed lawn).

Now,if the relationship between person A and person B was that of employer-employee. The employee would receive the price (hourly wage) determined by the employer. The employer would be paying for the employee's labor (time on job), not for the result of that labor (a mowed lawn).
Nonsense. You're conflating/confusing the issue of *how* the compensation of the employee is measured with the issue of *why* the employee is paid.

Employers do not pay for time in the abstract, but for the results produced by the employee. The wages that are paid are usually measured by the hours worked because there is usually a direct relationship between the hours worked and the results produced (i.e., an employee who works twice as many hours as another worker will usually produce twice as many widgets as the other worker).

And some employers pay "by the piece" instead of by the hour. For example, it was common in the garment industry to pay workers by the number of pieces of clothing sown, and not by the hours worked.

And to say that the "price (hourly wage) is determined by the employer" is an over-simplification. It's true that many employers set wage rates and hire only the applicants willing to accept those rates, but those same employers will raise their wage rates when they're not getting the quality or quantity of employees they need. And unions representing employees negotiate wage rates with employers. And employees with particular skills, experience, or other qualifications will often negotiate a higher wage rate than was originally offered by the employer. So to suggest that the employer can set wage rates unilaterally is not correct in many, if not most, cases.
Obtuseness Prime wrote:Now, let's combine these two "If a person (B) is paid by another person(A) for cutting that person's yard and person (B) employs person (C) to do the actual work, then person (B) is receiving compensation for a service and person (C) is receiving compensation for service.

I have just used the word "service" in two different contexts within the same sentence.
Actually, you've used the same word in the same context in two places in the same sentence. The word "service" is referring to the cutting the lawn both times the word "service" is used.
Obtuseness Prime wrote:In the first context, "a service" is a thing purchased by a consumer with no physical characteristics, and it can be represented by its plural usage "services".

In the second context, "service" is a singular act between the employer and the employee. Where the latter places himself under the direction and control of the former.
There is no plural usage in this context.
Now you're just making up crap.

There are many people who claim that, when the Supreme Court defined "income" as "the gain derived from capital, from labor, or from both combined," the gain "from labor" was referring to the gain of the employer and not the gain of the employee, but that's a complete fabrication based totally on wishful thinking and with no basis in fact, law, or logic.
Obtuseness Prime wrote:The Congress of the United States understands the difference between these contexts and has constructed the definitions of wages with this understanding.
More crap without any basis in fact.
Dan Evans
Foreman of the Unified Citizens' Grand Jury for Pennsylvania
(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by The Operative »

Harvester wrote:
The Operative wrote:Whether a person receives money for cutting a lawn or receives money from an employer, it is income.
No, for tax purposes not necessarily income.
Wrong. It is income for tax purposes. A portion of it is probably not TAXABLE income, however, most of it is income. The person cutting the lawn for another may be allowed to deduct lawn equipment maintenance and the cost of gas. However, the amount over expenses is income. The amount of income of a person who is an employee depends upon the allowable deductions for AGI and the deductions from AGI in order to arrive at what is taxable income.
Harvester wrote:The lawncutter could be exercising their common law right to trade.
A person has a right to work, but Congress still has the power to levy taxes upon those activities.
Harvester wrote:Ha, your cites to Dan Evans/LPC & Prof Siegel are comical; they are known tax-shills, not really helping your argument dude!
My argument, with the sources that I use, are a lot stronger than your arguments using known tax protesters and others that do not have the common sense of a house fly.
Harvester wrote:FAMSHEPARD! So good to hear from you again. 2 days without someone to guide the sheople back into the taxpayer pen is hard to bear. I think some were getting a notion (that maybe .... just maybe, all that glitters IS NOT income, and hence, not gross income). Stand tall warriors, we're winning!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 30206.html
That is just an opinion piece by another gold bug. Gold bugs have been proclaiming the failure of the dollar for more than 30 years. They were wrong then and they are wrong now.
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak.
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by LPC »

Harvester wrote:
The Operative wrote:Whether a person receives money for cutting a lawn or receives money from an employer, it is income.
No, for tax purposes not necessarily income. The lawncutter could be exercising their common law right to trade.
Even assuming that there is a "common law right to trade," the money received is still income, because "income" is not limited to activities that are regulated or restricted. As the Supreme Court so clearly stated in Charles C. Steward Machine Co. v. Davis, 301 U.S. 548, 580-1 (1937):
Supreme Court wrote:“But natural rights, so called, are as much subject to taxation as rights of lesser importance. An excise is not limited to vocations or activities that may be prohibited altogether. It is not limited to those that are the outcome of a franchise. It extends to vocations or activities pursued as of common right.”
Dan Evans
Foreman of the Unified Citizens' Grand Jury for Pennsylvania
(And author of the Tax Protester FAQ: evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html)
"Nothing is more terrible than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
Optimus Prime

Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Optimus Prime »

Nikki wrote:Interesting logic.

Now, all you have to do is explain how your conclusion is totally different from the result of every single court case which has decided that wages and salaries are gross income for the purpose of computing income taxes.

Because none of these court cases addressed the context in which service was used. The courts have presumed that services is the plural of service as used in the context of employment and none of the defendants have raised objection to this. In fact, they usually claim that they were paid for their services, not simply for their service. They did not know the difference.



Now Dan is tripping over himself saying that I am making crap up, when everything that I have said comes straight from Black's Law Dictionary. Under service it states that this word has a variety of meanings, depending on the context or the sense in which used.
One meaning is the duty or labor to be rendered by one person to another, the former being bound to submit his will to the direction and control of the latter.

Now look to services, and you will find that this word has its own definition.
Things purchased by consumers that do not have physical characteristics (e.g. services of doctors, lawyers, dentists, repair personnel).

LPC wrote:
Optimus Prime wrote: The Congress of the United States understands the difference between these contexts and has constructed the definitions of wages with this understanding.
More crap without any basis in fact.
I guess the very existence of section 3121 wages and section 3401 wages and how they are constructed is not a basis in fact in Dan's eyes
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

Optimus Prime wrote:Now Dan is tripping over himself saying that I am making crap up, when everything that I have said comes straight from Black's Law Dictionary.


SO WHAT? Like a true legal dilettante, you find a couple of quotes in Black's Law Dictionary (conveniently forgettting to tell us when your edition was published) and think that you have found Magic Words to prove the conclusion that you so earnestly want to be factual. However, all but the dullest first-year law students are aware that Black's is not the resource that you want to use if you want to buttress your legal arguments with facts. In fact, they quickly learn that a lot of what is in Black's is of historical value only.

Instead, you want to look at appellate court decisions -- and then make sure that the decision has not been minimized or overturned in the years since the decision was issued. Dan does this; you don't. Instead, you spend your time playing word games with out-of-context quotes, in the desperate hope that you, unlike the hundreds of people who have used the same arguments AND LOST, will somehow chant the Magic Words properly and make the income tax magically vanish.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture." -- Pastor Ray Mummert, Dover, PA, during an attempt to introduce creationism -- er, "intelligent design", into the Dover Public Schools
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by jg »

"Section 3402(a) of the Internal Revenue Code (Code) requires employers paying wages to deduct and withhold income tax on wages. For income tax withholding purposes, § 3401(a) provides that the term "wages," with certain exceptions, means all remuneration for services performed by an employee for an employer.
Under §§ 3111 and 3301, Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) tax and Federal Unemployment Tax Act (FUTA) tax, respectively, excise taxes are imposed on the employer in an amount equal to a percentage of the wages paid by that employer. Under § 3101, FICA tax also is imposed on the employee.
Under §§ 3121(a) and 3306(b), the term "wages" for FICA tax purposes and FUTA tax purposes, respectively, means, with certain exceptions, all remuneration for employment. Under §§ 3121(b) and 3306(c), “employment” is defined as any service, of whatever nature, performed by an employee for the person employing him.
Consistent with this definition, § 31.3121(a)-1(c) of the Employment Tax Regulations provides that the name by which the remuneration for employment is designated is immaterial. Section 31.3121(a)-1(d) further provides that generally, the basis upon which remuneration is paid to an employee is immaterial in determining whether the remuneration constitutes wages under FICA."
See http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/rr-02-35.pdf

It does not matter if you call it services or service. It is immaterial what name is designated or the basis upon which remuneration is paid for employment.
“Where there is an income tax, the just man will pay more and the unjust less on the same amount of income.” — Plato
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by The Operative »

Optimus Prime wrote:
Nikki wrote:Interesting logic.

Now, all you have to do is explain how your conclusion is totally different from the result of every single court case which has decided that wages and salaries are gross income for the purpose of computing income taxes.
Because none of these court cases addressed the context in which service was used. The courts have presumed that services is the plural of service as used in the context of employment and none of the defendants have raised objection to this. In fact, they usually claim that they were paid for their services, not simply for their service. They did not know the difference.
Nonsense. Wages are income. That is long settled by the courts. Your game of semantics will get you nowhere. The simple fact is that even if the employee/employer relationship did not fall under the 'compensation for services' category, it still falls under the meaning of "all income from whatever source derived".

BTW, in U.S. v. Connor 898 F.2d 942 (3rd Cir., 1990), the court specifically pointed out that Connor worked as a transport driver for Braun Baking Company and was Vice President of the local chapter of the Teamsters Union. "Every court which has ever considered the issue has unequivocally rejected the argument that wages are not income." The court considered Connor's argument frivolous.
Optimus Prime wrote:Now Dan is tripping over himself saying that I am making crap up, when everything that I have said comes straight from Black's Law Dictionary. Under service it states that this word has a variety of meanings, depending on the context or the sense in which used.
One meaning is the duty or labor to be rendered by one person to another, the former being bound to submit his will to the direction and control of the latter.

Now look to services, and you will find that this word has its own definition.
Things purchased by consumers that do not have physical characteristics (e.g. services of doctors, lawyers, dentists, repair personnel).
As usual, a layperson gives too much importance to reference material in determining what the law means.
Optimus Prime wrote:
LPC wrote:
Optimus Prime wrote: The Congress of the United States understands the difference between these contexts and has constructed the definitions of wages with this understanding.
More crap without any basis in fact.
I guess the very existence of section 3121 wages and section 3401 wages and how they are constructed is not a basis in fact in Dan's eyes
The problem is that you do not truly understand the definitions that you read.
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak.