Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Optimus Prime

Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Optimus Prime »

jg wrote:"Section 3402(a) of the Internal Revenue Code (Code) requires employers paying wages to deduct and withhold income tax on wages. For income tax withholding purposes, § 3401(a) provides that the term "wages," with certain exceptions, means all remuneration for services performed by an employee for an employer.
Under §§ 3111 and 3301, Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) tax and Federal Unemployment Tax Act (FUTA) tax, respectively, excise taxes are imposed on the employer in an amount equal to a percentage of the wages paid by that employer. Under § 3101, FICA tax also is imposed on the employee.
Under §§ 3121(a) and 3306(b), the term "wages" for FICA tax purposes and FUTA tax purposes, respectively, means, with certain exceptions, all remuneration for employment. Under §§ 3121(b) and 3306(c), “employment” is defined as any service, of whatever nature, performed by an employee for the person employing him.
Consistent with this definition, § 31.3121(a)-1(c) of the Employment Tax Regulations provides that the name by which the remuneration for employment is designated is immaterial. Section 31.3121(a)-1(d) further provides that generally, the basis upon which remuneration is paid to an employee is immaterial in determining whether the remuneration constitutes wages under FICA."
See http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/rr-02-35.pdf

It does not matter if you call it services or service. It is immaterial what name is designated or the basis upon which remuneration is paid for employment.

I totally agree with this; Section 3121 wages is broader in scope than Section 3401 wages
Harvester

Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Harvester »

Yep, fortunately I'm not an "employee" making "wages" in "employment" and therefore not subject to that excise tax. Dan, you'd be lost without that Steward Machine Co. quote wouldn't you? Whaddya sleep with that under your pillow? Yes, the taxing power extends to all vocations and activities, but Congress (& WeThePeople) have not enacted legislation that taxes all vocations and activities. Almost as comical as the time you tried to argue custom terms in statutes retain their common-use definitions and not the custom definition just given; priceless!

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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Gregg »

Can we please toss this idiot off a bridge to see if he can fly, or if the laws of gravity only apply to federally connected mass etc....
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

Harvester wrote:Yep, fortunately I'm not an "employee" making "wages" in "employment" and therefore not subject to that excise tax. Dan, you'd be lost without that Steward Machine Co. quote wouldn't you? Whaddya sleep with that under your pillow? Yes, the taxing power extends to all vocations and activities, but Congress (& WeThePeople) have not enacted legislation that taxes all vocations and activities.


Oh, yes they have. You just refuse to recognize the fact. It's too politically unpalatable for you.
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by LPC »

Harvester wrote:Yes, the taxing power extends to all vocations and activities, but Congress (& WeThePeople) have not enacted legislation that taxes all vocations and activities.
Not according to the Supreme Court:
“Congress applied no limitations as to the source of taxable receipts, nor restrictive labels as to their nature. And the Court has given a liberal construction to this broad phraseology in recognition of the intention of Congress to tax all gains except those specifically exempted.”
Commissioner v. Glenshaw Glass Co., 348 U.S. 426, 430-431 (1955).
Harvester wrote:Almost as comical as the time you tried to argue custom terms in statutes retain their common-use definitions and not the custom definition just given; priceless!
Just as the Supreme Court directs:
“[T]he words of statutes--including revenue acts--should be interpreted where possible in their ordinary, everyday senses.”
Crane v. Commissioner of Internal Revenue, 331 U.S. 1, 6 (1947); Malat v. Riddell, 383 U.S. 569, 571 (1966).

What is comical is that there is a Supreme Court opinion that directly and unequivocally contradicts almost everything you believe, and not one Supreme Court decision supporting what you believe.
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Colonel_Buck »

One of the regulars posted a very clear explanation of this using accounting concepts. I cannot find it at the moment. Could he post it again?
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Harvester »

No, the Supreme Court does not contradict me. And yes, "should be interpreted where possible." But where a term has been custom defined in a statute, it is NOT POSSIBLE for any other definition to apply. You sleep with that quote under your pillow too?

The purpose of the 16th Amendment (and the Income Tax) was to bring tax relief to wage earners. President Taft in the Congressional Record June 16, 1909:
I therefore recommend to the Congress that both Houses, by a two-thirds vote, shall propose an amendment to the Constitution conferring the power to levy an income tax upon the National Government without apportionment among the States in proportion to population.
Senator Heflin:
"An income tax seeks to reach the unearned wealth of the country and to make it pay its share." 44th Congress, 1909
Gov. A.E. Wilson on the Income Tax Amendment in N.Y. Times Feb. 26, 1911:
The poor man does not regard his wages or salary as 'an income.'
Additional reading:
http://www.newswithviews.com/money/money4.htm

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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Cathulhu »

To quote my granpa: Kids, you can call that chicken a duck, but it'll sink when it hits the water.

You can call your income any name you like; it's still taxable.

p.s. I like to call mine Norman.
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Famspear »

Harvester wrote:No, the Supreme Court does not contradict me.
Yes, the Supreme Court and all other federal courts contradict you.
.....But where a term has been custom defined in a statute, it is NOT POSSIBLE for any other definition to apply. You sleep with that quote under your pillow too?
That's correct. And the Internal Revenue Code includes "custome defined" terms. Your problem is that you don't like the definitions.
We're bringing this bad boy in for a landing folks. Get ready and STAND TALL WARRIORS!
No, you're not "bringing this bad boy in for a landing." The tax law is what the courts have ruled the law to be, and the courts have ruled the way we say the courts have ruled, not the way you say, Harvester.

And numbskulls like you are going to prison for doing the very kinds of things you falsely contend are legal. And if you are ever caught, Harvester, there's a chance (however small) that you yourself will go to prison.
...STAND TALL WARRIORS!
Lame, lame, lame.

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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by The Operative »

Harvester wrote:No, the Supreme Court does not contradict me.
Yes, it does.
Harvester wrote:And yes, "should be interpreted where possible." But where a term has been custom defined in a statute, it is NOT POSSIBLE for any other definition to apply. You sleep with that quote under your pillow too?
The problem with your argument is not that a term is defined in the statute, it is the fact that you do not understand the meaning of the word, "INCLUDES". "INCLUDES" is also defined in the statutes...
(c) Includes and including
The terms “includes” and “including” when used in a definition contained in this title shall not be deemed to exclude other things otherwise within the meaning of the term defined.
Nothing in that definition says that the use of "includes" limits the term to the class of items following it.
Harvester wrote:The purpose of the 16th Amendment (and the Income Tax) was to bring tax relief to wage earners. President Taft in the Congressional Record June 16, 1909:
I therefore recommend to the Congress that both Houses, by a two-thirds vote, shall propose an amendment to the Constitution conferring the power to levy an income tax upon the National Government without apportionment among the States in proportion to population.
That quote has to be read in context.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/print.php?pid=68517
Also, President Taft is saying the power to levy the tax is to be conferred upon the government. Not that the tax is to be only on the government. Your other quotes are also taken out of context. Reading is fundamental and you lack that ability.
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak.
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Nikki »

Actually, in or extracted from context makes little difference.

The critical action is to read the sentence according to the basic rules of the English language without attempting to twist its meaning to agree with a predetermined conclusion.
I therefore recommend to the Congress that both Houses, by a two-thirds vote, shall propose an amendment to the Constitution conferring the power to levy an income tax upon the National Government without apportionment among the States in proportion to population.
If, as Harvie maintains, the power conferred is to apply only to an income tax "upon the National Government", then the entire sentence disintegrates into meaningless gibberish.

Harvie really needs to go back and complete both of his unfinished courses: Civics 101 and ESL.
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by LPC »

Harvester wrote:No, the Supreme Court does not contradict me. And yes, "should be interpreted where possible." But where a term has been custom defined in a statute, it is NOT POSSIBLE for any other definition to apply.
I'm going to ignore the idiocy of the phrase "custom defined" and focus on the idiocy of the conclusion you want to reach, which is that it is not possible for section 7701(c) to mean what it says about the meaning of "includes," so that it is not possible for private sector employees to be "employees" within the meaning of section 3401(c).

You're not claiming that sections 7701(c) and 3401(c) are ambiguous, you're claiming that the absurd result you want to reach is the only possible result, which defies not only the plain meaning of the words on the page but also all logic and common sense.

And the conclusion you want to reach isn't even relevant to the question of whether the compensation you receive is included in your gross income under section 61.
Harvester wrote:The purpose of the 16th Amendment (and the Income Tax) was to bring tax relief to wage earners.
Because most federal revenues were derived from tariffs, which drove up the prices of commodities and so burdened the working class.
Harvester wrote:President Taft in the Congressional Record June 16, 1909:
I therefore recommend to the Congress that both Houses, by a two-thirds vote, shall propose an amendment to the Constitution conferring the power to levy an income tax upon the National Government without apportionment among the States in proportion to population.
If you think that Taft wanted the federal government to be able to tax itself, then you legally qualify as brain dead.
Harvester wrote:Senator Heflin:
"An income tax seeks to reach the unearned wealth of the country and to make it pay its share." 44th Congress, 1909
You have to remember the historical context of the 16th Amendment, which was that the Supreme Court had ruled in Pollock that Congress could not tax unearned income (e.g., rents, interest, and dividends) without apportionment, but could tax earned income (e.g., wages and salaries) without apportionment, so the purpose of the amendment was to remove the apportionment requirement from an income tax on unearned income.
Harvester wrote:Gov. A.E. Wilson on the Income Tax Amendment in N.Y. Times Feb. 26, 1911:
The poor man does not regard his wages or salary as 'an income.'
You should read the whole article in context, because it is clear that Gov. Wilson opposed the 16th Amendment because he believed that Congress would be taxing not just the wealthy on their incomes from wealth, but would also be taxing workers on their wages and salaries. In other words, Gov. Wilson opposed the 16th Amendment because he believed that it would give Congress the power that you believe it did not give Congress.
Harvester wrote:Additional reading:
http://www.newswithviews.com/money/money4.htm
You're going to rely on Phil Hart?

Hart was stupid enough to try out his ideas on his own income tax returns, and filed returns for the years 1994 and 1995 that failed to include the wages he had earned and included an attachment stating: "The wages I earned as reflected on my W-2 form are nontaxable personal property." He then failed to file any return at all for 1996. The Tax Court rejected all of his arguments, upholding the tax deficiencies and penalties determined by the Internal Revenue Service and imposing sanctions of $20,000 for making frivolous arguments. On appeal, the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the Tax Court and added additional sanctions of $2,000 for a frivolous appeal. Philip Lewis Hart v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 2000-78 (notice of deficiency upheld and $20,000 in sanctions imposed), aff'd, 88 AFTR2d Par. 2001-5170, No. 01-70173 (9th Cir. 1/9/2002) (additional sanctions of $2,000 imposed for an appeal "wholly without merit"), cert. den., No. 02-84 (8/7/2002).

See http://tpgurus.wikidot.com/phil-hart for additional information.

However, I have to admit that Hart was smarter than Hendrickson, because at least Hart never went to jail.
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

Harvester wrote:No, the Supreme Court does not contradict me. And yes, "should be interpreted where possible." But where a term has been custom defined in a statute, it is NOT POSSIBLE for any other definition to apply. You sleep with that quote under your pillow too?

The purpose of the 16th Amendment (and the Income Tax) was to bring tax relief to wage earners. President Taft in the Congressional Record June 16, 1909:
I therefore recommend to the Congress that both Houses, by a two-thirds vote, shall propose an amendment to the Constitution conferring the power to levy an income tax upon the National Government without apportionment among the States in proportion to population.
Senator Heflin:
"An income tax seeks to reach the unearned wealth of the country and to make it pay its share." 44th Congress, 1909
Gov. A.E. Wilson on the Income Tax Amendment in N.Y. Times Feb. 26, 1911:
The poor man does not regard his wages or salary as 'an income.'
Additional reading:
http://www.newswithviews.com/money/money4.htm

We're bringing this bad boy in for a landing folks. Get ready and STAND TALL WARRIORS!
Once again, Harvey shows how out-of-touch he is with legal reality. To buttress his delusions, he cites -- not court decisions or statutes, but three generalized quotes commenting, in a general way, on income taxation. Any lawyer stupid enough to use these three quotes as the foundation of an appellate brief would soon be looking at 1) a dismissal of his case and 2) likely bar sanctions.

Harvey is no more of a "warrior" that I was when I was a boy and ran around playing "Army" with my friends.
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Harvester »

Look at me Gregg, I'm flying !
Famspear wrote:
Harvester wrote:.....But where a term has been custom defined in a statute, it is NOT POSSIBLE for any other definition to apply. You sleep with that quote under your pillow too?
That's correct. And the Internal Revenue Code includes "custom defined" terms.
That's correct? Did you get LPCs permission to agree with me? Well then, the IRC custom defines "employee" and I have no problem with that (other than its obfuscation) and we are then in agreement. And that representative, limiting list given in that custom definition may be considered expansive to include other things within the same general class as the term defined. What is the term defined? "..an officer, elected official or employee of the United States, a State*, or any political subdivision thereof, or the D.C. or any agency or instrumentality of any one or more of the foregoing." So we can also agree the definition may be expansive to include other federal workers as they're in the same general class as the custom-term "employee" just defined. In a statute, it is not possible for any other definition to apply. That's correct. Furthermore, since the terms "United States" and "State" as used in that definition are themselves limited custom definitions (meaning essentially, the federal zone) not every common-term employee is a custom-term employee. And hence, not every employee is a statutory employee (an "employee" for tax purposes). And therefore those non-statutory employees, like myself, are not subject to the tax.

'smatter Famshepard? are you down because all your efforts to silence me just backfire and embolden me? STAND TALL WARRIORS! The end of the banking cabal is nigh. With God's help we're bringing the bad boys down. Give it up; walk towards the light. There's nothing to fear. We've got so many repositories of gold 'n silver you wouldn't believe - plenty for everyone. But you gotta give up the deception, fraud & trickery; that's all we ask.

http://www.worldreports.org/news/292_ob ... el_bribery
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by The Operative »

Harvester wrote:Look at me Gregg, I'm flying !
Famspear wrote:
Harvester wrote:.....But where a term has been custom defined in a statute, it is NOT POSSIBLE for any other definition to apply. You sleep with that quote under your pillow too?
That's correct. And the Internal Revenue Code includes "custom defined" terms.
That's correct? Did you get LPCs permission to agree with me? Well then, the IRC custom defines "employee" and I have no problem with that (other than its obfuscation) and we are then in agreement. And that representative, limiting list given in that custom definition may be considered expansive to include other things within the same general class as the term defined. What is the term defined? "..an officer, elected official or employee of the United States, a State*, or any political subdivision thereof, or the D.C. or any agency or instrumentality of any one or more of the foregoing." So we can also agree the definition may be expansive to include other federal workers as they're in the same general class as the custom-term "employee" just defined. In a statute, it is not possible for any other definition to apply. That's correct. Furthermore, since the terms "United States" and "State" as used in that definition are themselves limited custom definitions (meaning essentially, the federal zone) not every common-term employee is a custom-term employee. And hence, not every employee is a statutory employee (an "employee" for tax purposes). And therefore those non-statutory employees, like myself, are not subject to the tax.
Your grasp of the English language is very tenuous Harvey. The simple fact is that the word, "includes" does not limit the term to the class of terms that follows it. Besides, who decides what the proper "class" of the included terms really is? If the definitions really worked the way that you and your prison bound hero say it does, the definitions would not be clarifying anything. In fact, your idiotic theory only obfuscates the definition.
Harvester wrote:'smatter Famshepard? are you down because all your efforts to silence me just backfire and embolden me? STAND TALL WARRIORS! The end of the banking cabal is nigh. With God's help we're bringing the bad boys down. Give it up; walk towards the light. There's nothing to fear. We've got so many repositories of gold 'n silver you wouldn't believe - plenty for everyone. But you gotta give up the deception, fraud & trickery; that's all we ask.

http://www.worldreports.org/news/292_ob ... el_bribery
I'm impressed Harvey. You have an interesting ability to find the most ridiculous nonsense on the Internet.
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by notorial dissent »

And Harvey proves yet again, that he, like the mental midgets he idolizes, does not understand or comprehend the difference between "means" and "includes" when applied to a term. INCLUDES is a word of expansion as in including the phrases inflected, but not limiting to them. Thus includes in the phrase he and prattlin' Pete try so hard to misinterpret means to "include" those mentioned along with the standard meaning of the word. Now if the phrase had been employee "means", then he would have had something. As it stands he and Pete got bupkis.

I am having a hard time even coming up with a case where "includes" is used in an exclusionary sense, unless with would be something like "includes ONLY", then he might have a case, but the laws under discussion are not written that way, and have continually been defined and determined to be expansionary in every court case that has come up.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by LPC »

notorial dissent wrote:I am having a hard time even coming up with a case where "includes" is used in an exclusionary sense,
There are some court decisions involving other statutes (not the Internal Revenue Code) in which the courts have found that the word "includes" was used in the same way as "means."

For example, a statute might say that "the word 'vehicle' includes automobiles, trucks, buses, and motorcycles." Faced with the question of whether a horse-drawn buggy is a "vehicle" within the meaning of the statute, a court might decide that, despite the use of the word "includes," the list of included items was intended to be comprehensive, and "vehicles" should not be construed to include things outside of the listed items. In other words, the legislature used the word "includes" when it really meant "means."
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by . »

LPC wrote:For example
Aw, that's just mean. After the morons in the CrackDen and Sooooey get done wasting thousands of hours searching the motor vehicle statutes of all 50 states and cases thereunder for special new magic words, all totally inapplicable to the IRC they're not going to know where to waste their next thousand hours.
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

Harvester wrote:'smatter Famshepard? are you down because all your efforts to silence me just backfire and embolden me? STAND TALL WARRIORS!


Yeah, you're "emboldened" -- just like the famous song about the mouse who drank some spilled whiskey in a bar, and then yelled "bring on the goddamned cat!" As for being a "warrior", you're on a suicide mission, because the only ones that will suffer, when the "war" is over, will be you and your ilk.

I have no hope of you being silenced, though. You're too studid, and yet too impressed withyour own perceived wisdom, to be capable of keeping quiet. Rather than keeping your mouth shut and have people think you're an idiot, you open it and remove all doubt.
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Re: Sorry Charlie! Wages are taxable; your argument frivolous

Post by Famspear »

Harvester wrote:'smatter Famshepard? are you down because all your efforts to silence me just backfire and embolden me?
Efforts to silence you? What are you talking about? Oh, that's right -- more meaningless rhetoric.
STAND TALL WARRIORS! The end of the banking cabal is nigh.
Wow, what a cornball you are, Harvester.
With God's help we're bringing the bad boys down. Give it up; walk towards the light. There's nothing to fear.
What a lame cornball you are, Harvester.
We've got so many repositories of gold 'n silver you wouldn't believe - plenty for everyone.
Uh-hug. Yeah. Right.
But you gotta give up the deception, fraud & trickery; that's all we ask.
We're not your parents, cornball. Go see a shrink.

8)
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