i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Farmer Giles

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by Farmer Giles »

Red Cedar PM wrote:Hey Farmer - let me make this as brutally clear as possible, so that you can understand it. Grixit said it best a few months ago and as I have added to my signature.
Grixit wrote:forget terms like "wages", "income", "derived from", "received", etc. If you did something, and got paid for it, you owe tax.
It really doesn't get much simpler than that.

oh really? So when I work and get paid only my tax-deductible costs and limits, I owe tax? not even in your fantasy world.

Now be brutally clear and actually post a responsive answer. Show the actual tax consequences to the transactions as I have structured them. No "ifs", no 'alternative scenarios', no 'cants'. Just simply show the tax consequence. So far no one has and I dont believe you will either.

thats goes for any challenger as well.
The Operative
Fourth Shogun of Quatloosia
Posts: 885
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:04 pm
Location: Here, I used to be there, but I moved.

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by The Operative »

TNJSFBAKAFG wrote:
Red Cedar PM wrote:Hey Farmer - let me make this as brutally clear as possible, so that you can understand it. Grixit said it best a few months ago and as I have added to my signature.
Grixit wrote:forget terms like "wages", "income", "derived from", "received", etc. If you did something, and got paid for it, you owe tax.
It really doesn't get much simpler than that.

oh really? So when I work and get paid only my tax-deductible costs and limits, I owe tax? not even in your fantasy world.

Now be brutally clear and actually post a responsive answer. Show the actual tax consequences to the transactions as I have structured them. No "ifs", no 'alternative scenarios', no 'cants'. Just simply show the tax consequence. So far no one has and I dont believe you will either.

thats goes for any challenger as well.
It is not our fantasy world. It is the real world. You are the one living in a delusional world. WHEN A PERSON SELLS A PRODUCT OR SERVICE FOR MORE THAN WHAT THEY PAID TO PRODUCE OR PROVIDE THAT SERVICE, HE OR SHE HAS A GAIN OR INCOME. AFTER ALLOWABLE DEDUCTIONS UNDER THE LAW (i.e. standard deduction, medical deduction, etc.), ANY AMOUNT IN EXCESS OF THOSE DEDUCTIONS IS TAXABLE INCOME.
Edit: Just to be clear, a person who sells his or her labor to an employer, paid $0 for his or her labor. Therefore, any compensation received by the person from the employer IS A GAIN OR INCOME to the person.

Your silly equal exchanges of value are not how income is determined and is not how the world works. AGAIN, NO ONE THAT MATTERS AGREES WITH YOU.
Last edited by The Operative on Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak.
Nikki

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by Nikki »

Farmer Giles wrote:oh really? So when I work and get paid only my tax-deductible costs and limits, I owe tax? not even in your fantasy world.

Now be brutally clear and actually post a responsive answer. Show the actual tax consequences to the transactions as I have structured them. No "ifs", no 'alternative scenarios', no 'cants'. Just simply show the tax consequence. So far no one has and I dont believe you will either.

thats goes for any challenger as well.
What are the "tax-deductible costs and limits" which apply to you?

BTW: We are assuming that when you say "when I work" you do not mean run a business, but are paid a salary or wage. Please correct us if we are incorrect.
Farmer Giles

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by Farmer Giles »

Nikki wrote:
Farmer Giles wrote:oh really? So when I work and get paid only my tax-deductible costs and limits, I owe tax? not even in your fantasy world.

Now be brutally clear and actually post a responsive answer. Show the actual tax consequences to the transactions as I have structured them. No "ifs", no 'alternative scenarios', no 'cants'. Just simply show the tax consequence. So far no one has and I dont believe you will either.

thats goes for any challenger as well.
What are the "tax-deductible costs and limits" which apply to you?

BTW: We are assuming that when you say "when I work" you do not mean run a business, but are paid a salary or wage. Please correct us if we are incorrect.
I was pointing out the stupidity of the post. Even in "taxland" Ive got a standard deduction. personal exemptions, other deductibles so to make a blanket statement, "get paid for working you owe tax" is just wrong.

I have proposed an alternative structure and asked over and again that anyone show the tax consequences. Its that simple.

If I have to "run a business" or practice any other organization to avoid liability, well then any activity can be framed as "running a business" or whatver modality is admissible. And if there are certain economic relationships that invite taxability, so be it. I'm not surprised that the typical capitalist formula ends up with responsibilities towards the greater society. Not least because exploitation means profits and that means income.

There are however so many alternative fiscalities that a proper structure that leaves everyone in successful balance should avoid the penalty for benefiting at the expense of others, which is essentially what income is all about.
Farmer Giles

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by Farmer Giles »

in case you missed it... here is the basic premise:
in my grocery store we spend all our inventory... we spend it all on purchasing money from the customers.

In your grocery we can just bond the whole business, and I'll credit you for the value. Then I'll sell the inventory like a normal operation, and everything will be an even-exchange.

"lending efforts" is a common phrase from the English language. If after all your alleged schooling, you still never heard of it, no more classes are going to help.

I will retrieve my work by taking out my share of the improved collateral. Capital share redemption is revenue-neutral. I lent my efforts, and I got a share of the eqity to hold for security. If they dont pay back my loan, they forfeit the collateral.

Its noteworthy that on the local real estate transfer tax form there is always an exemption for "secured transactions". All aproaches to the tax question are solved by staying in a secured transaction, which is sufficient to conduct any business or trade at all.
Since it seems to be agreed that borrowing and lending are excluded from income, any economy can be viewed in those terms. I'll just lend efforts instead of render services.

This all comes down to the fallacy of popular delusions, that administrative concepts can be 'seen' and 'touched'.
David Merrill

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by David Merrill »

The Operative wrote:
It is not our fantasy world. It is the real world. You are the one living in a delusional world. WHEN A PERSON SELLS A PRODUCT OR SERVICE FOR MORE THAN WHAT THEY PAID TO PRODUCE OR PROVIDE THAT SERVICE, HE OR SHE HAS A GAIN OR INCOME. AFTER ALLOWABLE DEDUCTIONS UNDER THE LAW (i.e. standard deduction, medical deduction, etc.), ANY AMOUNT IN EXCESS OF THOSE DEDUCTIONS IS TAXABLE INCOME.

Your silly equal exchanges of value are not how income is determined and is not how the world works. AGAIN, NO ONE THAT MATTERS AGREES WITH YOU.

That is absurd. I post in my true name my parents gave me, post the remedy in §16 of the 1913 Federal Reserve Act and codifed in full force and effect at Title 12 U.S.C. §411 found in any US Code Book today.

And the Quatlosers write posts like they have some kind of license on the real world??

Can anybody understand why you folks are so fascinating?


Regards,

David Merrill.
Farmer Giles

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by Farmer Giles »

Quatloos? More like Quaaludes...
Judge Roy Bean
Judge for the District of Quatloosia
Judge for the District of Quatloosia
Posts: 3704
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 6:04 pm
Location: West of the Pecos

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by Judge Roy Bean »

Farmer Giles wrote:in case you missed it... here is the basic premise:
In case you missed it Giles, there is nothing in that "basic premise" that demonstrates a grasp of the real world.
The Honorable Judge Roy Bean
The world is a car and you're a crash-test dummy.
The Devil Makes Three
Farmer Giles

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by Farmer Giles »

thats it? thats the best that you can do? You really cant tell us the tax consequences here? I thought you were a Judge! How can you be so ignorant? I declare you impeached!
David Merrill

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by David Merrill »

That guy will hang you for less!
Judge Roy Bean
Judge for the District of Quatloosia
Judge for the District of Quatloosia
Posts: 3704
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 6:04 pm
Location: West of the Pecos

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by Judge Roy Bean »

Farmer Giles wrote:thats [sic] it? thats [sic] the best that you can do? ...
No, that's all the time your drivel is worth.
The Honorable Judge Roy Bean
The world is a car and you're a crash-test dummy.
The Devil Makes Three
The Operative
Fourth Shogun of Quatloosia
Posts: 885
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:04 pm
Location: Here, I used to be there, but I moved.

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by The Operative »

TNJSFBAKAFG wrote: I have proposed an alternative structure and asked over and again that anyone show the tax consequences. Its that simple.

If I have to "run a business" or practice any other organization to avoid liability, well then any activity can be framed as "running a business" or whatver modality is admissible. And if there are certain economic relationships that invite taxability, so be it. I'm not surprised that the typical capitalist formula ends up with responsibilities towards the greater society. Not least because exploitation means profits and that means income.

There are however so many alternative fiscalities that a proper structure that leaves everyone in successful balance should avoid the penalty for benefiting at the expense of others, which is essentially what income is all about.
And we have told you time and time again that your "alternative structure" is not allowable in the real world.

Businesses do not avoid liability for taxes either. When a business has taxable income, that business pays taxes. When a business uses available resources (e.g. raw materials, labor, etc.) to create a product, the business hopes that it is adding value to the product so that a consumer will pay more for the product than it cost the business to produce it. Without going into too much detail, as long as the revenues received from selling product for a period of time are more than what it cost to produce that product and any allowable administrative expenses, the business has income and it is taxable.

An individual who works as an employee of another is spending his or her time to complete tasks under the direction of his or her employer. Once it is past, that time is gone forever. The only recovery of that time is the compensation received in exchange for it. Whether that compensation is paid in money or it is paid in stocks (i.e. equity ownership in the company), it is income. The exchanging of labor for money is NOT AN EQUAL EXCHANGE. Once the individual has subtracted allowable deductions and exemptions from the gross income, anything above that amount is taxable income.

Your premise is that once a business has created or purchased a product, the cost basis of the product is supposedly equal to the selling price. That is idiotic. It is the same with individuals. A person has no basis cost in his or her own labor. Once he or she sells that labor to another, the compensation received in exchange for that labor is income.

Read the following link at the Tax Protester FAQ...http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#exchange
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak.
The Operative
Fourth Shogun of Quatloosia
Posts: 885
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:04 pm
Location: Here, I used to be there, but I moved.

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by The Operative »

David Merrill wrote:
The Operative wrote:
It is not our fantasy world. It is the real world. You are the one living in a delusional world. WHEN A PERSON SELLS A PRODUCT OR SERVICE FOR MORE THAN WHAT THEY PAID TO PRODUCE OR PROVIDE THAT SERVICE, HE OR SHE HAS A GAIN OR INCOME. AFTER ALLOWABLE DEDUCTIONS UNDER THE LAW (i.e. standard deduction, medical deduction, etc.), ANY AMOUNT IN EXCESS OF THOSE DEDUCTIONS IS TAXABLE INCOME.

Your silly equal exchanges of value are not how income is determined and is not how the world works. AGAIN, NO ONE THAT MATTERS AGREES WITH YOU.

That is absurd. I post in my true name my parents gave me, post the remedy in §16 of the 1913 Federal Reserve Act and codifed in full force and effect at Title 12 U.S.C. §411 found in any US Code Book today.

And the Quatlosers write posts like they have some kind of license on the real world??

Can anybody understand why you folks are so fascinating?


Regards,

David Merrill.
Mr. Dumbass,

My post was not directed at you. However, you too live in a fantasy world. Most of us understand how the real world works. You do not. You and FG are like rocks, only dumber.
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak.
Famspear
Knight Templar of the Sacred Tax
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by Famspear »

Farmer Giles wrote:thats it? thats the best that you can do? You really cant tell us the tax consequences here? I thought you were a Judge! How can you be so ignorant? I declare you impeached!
Dearest Farmer Giles, here's a clue: Your postings are of little value or importance. They are trivial. They are not properly serious or sensible. Your thoughts on these matters involving federal income taxation are, well, frivolous. They are not worthy of serious consideration.

So, when you fail to elicit responses that satisfy you, the failure is not for want of expert knowledge on the part of the Quatloos regulars here, to whom your blather is directed. The fault, dear Farmer, lies in your own stars. If you want to understand why your arguments do not appear to you receive the attention you believe they deserve, this may help:
Frivolous. of little value or importance; trifling; trivial [ . . . ] not properly serious or sensible; silly and light-minded; giddy.
---Webster’s New World Dictionary of the American Language, p. 560, World Publishing Co. (2d Coll. Ed. 1978).
Frivolous. of little weight or importance [ . . . ] lacking in seriousness [ . . . ] irresponsibly self-indulgent.
---Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary, p. 461, G. & C. Merriam Co. (8th Ed. 1976).
Frivolous. Unworthy of serious attention; trivial [ . . .] inappropriately silly.
---American Heritage Dictionary, p. 535, Houghton Mifflin Co. (2d Coll. Ed. 1985).

In reviewing your posts, the word "gibberish" comes to mind.....
Gibberish. unintelligible or meaningless language [ . . . ].
---Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary, p. 484, G. & C. Merriam Co. (8th Ed. 1976).

In other words, your thoughts, as you are expressing them here, are receiving no less attention than they merit. Indeed, many of your fellow posters here appear to be cutting you an undeserved amount of slack.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
Farmer Giles

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by Farmer Giles »

David Merrill wrote:That guy will hang you for less!

or get me banned, as it has on 2 other lawyer/accountant websites. maybe Quaaludes is different in that respect. I think it is properly representative of about the average "college" result. I know that real lawyers and accountants might even have some real answers, but at least 80% of this class are just total posers and truly stupid people with a strong inferiority complex.
David Merrill

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by David Merrill »

The Operative wrote:
David Merrill wrote:
The Operative wrote:
It is not our fantasy world. It is the real world. You are the one living in a delusional world. WHEN A PERSON SELLS A PRODUCT OR SERVICE FOR MORE THAN WHAT THEY PAID TO PRODUCE OR PROVIDE THAT SERVICE, HE OR SHE HAS A GAIN OR INCOME. AFTER ALLOWABLE DEDUCTIONS UNDER THE LAW (i.e. standard deduction, medical deduction, etc.), ANY AMOUNT IN EXCESS OF THOSE DEDUCTIONS IS TAXABLE INCOME.

Your silly equal exchanges of value are not how income is determined and is not how the world works. AGAIN, NO ONE THAT MATTERS AGREES WITH YOU.

That is absurd. I post in my true name my parents gave me, post the remedy in §16 of the 1913 Federal Reserve Act and codifed in full force and effect at Title 12 U.S.C. §411 found in any US Code Book today.

And the Quatlosers write posts like they have some kind of license on the real world??

Can anybody understand why you folks are so fascinating?


Regards,

David Merrill.
Mr. Dumbass,

My post was not directed at you. However, you too live in a fantasy world. Most of us understand how the real world works. You do not. You and FG are like rocks, only dumber.
All income tax liability comes from endorsing private credit from the Fed.
Farmer Giles

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by Farmer Giles »

Famspear wrote:
Farmer Giles wrote:thats it? thats the best that you can do? You really cant tell us the tax consequences here? I thought you were a Judge! How can you be so ignorant? I declare you impeached!
In other words, your thoughts, as you are expressing them here, are receiving no less attention than they merit. Indeed, many of your fellow posters here appear to be cutting you an undeserved amount of slack.
So much slack that there are now 2 threads dedicated to my name besides all the other attention. Didnt stop you from some more nonresponding... "quien calla otorga".

I wish you people would take 20% of the effort you spend in Quaaludes Kindergarten and actually answer one premise or position.
Famspear
Knight Templar of the Sacred Tax
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 12:59 pm
Location: Texas

Re: i dont have to pay cause i dont feel like it

Post by Famspear »

Farmer Giles wrote:
David Merrill wrote:That guy will hang you for less!
......I know that real lawyers and accountants might even have some real answers, but at least 80% of this class are just total posers and truly stupid people with a strong inferiority complex.
No, you don't "know".

And we're sorry that you feel you are a "poser". We're sorry you feel you're "truly stupid." And we're sorry that you sense you have an inferiority complex.

Yes, that's right. You, Farmer Giles. It's called "projection." Look it up.

If you want what you feel are serious responses to your comments, then you will need to come up with something serious. See my earlier post regarding the term "frivolous," etc.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet