The Truth about Cracking the Code

Famspear
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Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by Famspear »

grammarian44 wrote:Wow, lots of people have responded to Harvester's argument that "includes" as used in 3401(c) is being used in a non-exclusive sense. Now while I agree with that, I would like to point out that the entire question is moot insofar as the main issue is whether Harvester is liable for taxes on wages.......

[ . . . .]

"This chapter" is Chapter 24 of Subtitle A of Title 26. The chapter is captioned "Withholding from Wages." The liability for taxes imposed by Chapter 24 is imposed on employers, not employees......
It's no use. I believe several people here have explained this to Harvester, and to other Crackheads, from time to time. It sails right over their heads.

And the reason it sails right over their heads is that they don't want to believe that Hendrickson is incorrect. They reject, and they will always reject, any correct explanation of what the law is, and they will reject all court decisions on the Cracking the Code scam.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
grammarian44

Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by grammarian44 »

It's no use. I believe several people here have explained this to Harvester, and to other Crackheads, from time to time. It sails right over their heads.

And the reason it sails right over their heads is that they don't want to believe that Hendrickson is incorrect. They reject, and they will always reject, any correct explanation of what the law is, and they will reject all court decisions on the Cracking the Code scam.
But if we are going to respond with further argument at all, the argument needs to be fought on the turf that matters, if only to make sure people don't come to believe that people who resist tax protesters care about statutes like 3401. The right turf on which to fight the battle is the sections of the Code that actually impose tax on taxable income and define what taxable income is: sections 1, 63, and 61. To become liable for tax, all one needs to do is fall within the ambit of those sections. Fighting about 3401(c) misses the point.
Famspear
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Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by Famspear »

grammarian44 wrote:
It's no use. I believe several people here have explained this to Harvester, and to other Crackheads, from time to time. It sails right over their heads.

And the reason it sails right over their heads is that they don't want to believe that Hendrickson is incorrect. They reject, and they will always reject, any correct explanation of what the law is, and they will reject all court decisions on the Cracking the Code scam.
But if we are going to respond with further argument at all, the argument needs to be fought on the turf that matters, if only to make sure people don't come to believe that people who resist tax protesters care about statutes like 3401. The right turf on which to fight the battle is the sections of the Code that actually impose tax on taxable income and define what taxable income is: sections 1, 63, and 61. To become liable for tax, all one needs to do is fall within the ambit of those sections. Fighting about 3401(c) misses the point.
Agreed.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
notorial dissent
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Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by notorial dissent »

Or, at least as has been repeatedly proven in Harvey's case, they are just simply grammatical ignoramuses, as well as being general all purpose ignoramuses. I don’t know if Harvey is really that stupid, or that disingenuous, truth be told I don’t care. He is dishonest both factually and intellectually, and there is quite frankly no point in debating the issue further with him.

The plain facts of the matter are that Harvey and the LH crowd have a real problem slinging more than a hand full of words together at any one time and coming up with anything resembling a coherent sentence or thought. Anything with words of more than two syllables and five words in a row makes them choke, which is why they let someone like Pete interpret things like IRS instructions for them, which they accept blindly, since they get lost past the first few words trying it themselves.

In Pete’s case I think, and have always thought, that his choice is self serving and intellectually as well as morally dishonest. Pete wanted an excuse to do what he was doing, and so he invented one, based on his refusal to follow and acknowledge the same grammatical construction that the rest of the universe uses. Which is evident by the legislative record, and the fact that the courts have consistently and absolutely and repeatedly ruled and stated that “includes” means “includes” not “excludes all else”. When it comes right down to it, if the Congress had meant to restrict the tax to one group of people they would have and could have done so by the simple expedient of saying “taxpayer means....” they didn’t, and didn’t for the simple reason that the tax was intended to reach to all citizens. They framed it the way they did, because at the time gov’t employees were considered to be officers of the state even down to the lowliest file clerk, and were generally considered to be exempt from income taxes for that reason, and corporate officers, while paid to do a particular job were not considered to be employees because they are appointed, not hired, and elected officials were certainly not employees within the meaning of the word, since they were elected. The law did away with all those distinctions by the simple expedient of declaring them all to be within the general category of employee for tax purposes. Pete and his ilk do not want to accept that that is what the law means for the simple reason that then they too would be subject to the income tax, because they are in fact an “employee”.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.
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Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by lorne »

darling wrote:
grammarian44 wrote:Query re: "Includes" argument:
...
So why doesn't Section 7701(c) of the Code settle the issue? It says that "when used as a definition contained in this title"--which must mean title 26--"the terms 'includes' and 'including' . . . shall not be deemed to exclude other things otherwise within the meaning of the term defined."
Here's Pete's reasoning:
http://www.losthorizons.com/comment/The ... ItSays.pdf
that reasoning makes sense to me. it presents a unified consistent whole. Although it's not clear unambiguous language, it appears written to intentionally mislead yet at the same time remain within the letter of the law. But I won't argue it here. almost all of you seem cut from the same mold.

Peace, Lorne
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Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by LPC »

lorne wrote:
darling wrote:Here's Pete's reasoning:
http://www.losthorizons.com/comment/The ... ItSays.pdf
that reasoning makes sense to me.
Oh, come on. As trolls go, you're not even trying.

You probably didn't even bother to read it, but just agreed with it because you wanted to see what kind of response you got.

Well, my response is to put you on "ignore."
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Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by Cpt Banjo »

Lorne, the "mold" that we are cut from is shared by all of the judges and law professors, and 99.9999% of the attorneys and accountants (I'll grant you a few screwballs in the latter categories). Do you honestly believe that we have all misread the statute or are involved in a massive conspiracy to mislead?
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Famspear
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Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by Famspear »

Here's my response, Lorne. You ain't gonna like it.
lorne wrote:Here's Pete's reasoning:
http://www.losthorizons.com/comment/The ... ItSays.pdf
that reasoning makes sense to me. it presents a unified consistent whole. Although it's not clear unambiguous language, it appears written to intentionally mislead yet at the same time remain within the letter of the law. But I won't argue it here. almost all of you seem cut from the same mold.

Peace, Lorne
(bolding added)

That highlights your problem: "makes sense to me". That's how you people (tax protester-tax denier types) approach the study of law. You go with "what makes sense to you," rather than using proper legal analysis.

No, the regular Quatloos posters are not "cut from the same mold." We are a diverse group. What may appear to you to be uniform thinking and being "cut from the same mold" is in reality the evidence of people who use the same methods of analysis -- proper legal analysis. Engineers think like engineers not because they are cut from the same mold, but because the body of knowledge they use is a coherent set of principles. Accountants think like accountants, lawyers think like lawyers, physicians think like physicians, etc., not because they are "cut from the same mold" but rather because each deals with a complex body of knowledge with its own rules and procedures. Following those rules and procedures is not evidence of narrow-mindedness or being "cut" from some imaginary "same mold."

It is you people, the delusional tax protester, tax denier types, who are narrow minded. You approach tax law by figuring out where you want to end up, and then you accept all forms of nonsense arguments that appear to support your pre-determined conclusion and you reject the data that refutes your pre-determined conclusion.

Hendrickson is a classic case. For years, he was anti-tax. He even went to prison in the early 1990s for participating in an illegal act (the placing of a smoke bomb at a post office facility) to protest the federal income tax and willful failure to file a return. He went to prison, got out, had financial problems, filed bankruptcy in the mid-1990s, and went right along until around the early 2000s, when he miraculously "discovered" the "truth" about the tax law -- the so-called "truth" that all the tax experts somehow couldn't discover or somehow deliberately "hid" from the public. He changed his theories about tax law until he found one (the private-sector non-federally privileged argument) that he liked. He used to argue that the tax was unconstitutional. Then he learned a little about the Cheek doctrine (but not enough, apparently, to really understand how the doctrine works) and he dropped the phony "unconstitutional" argument in favor of a phony statutory argument cobbled together from theories of prior tax protesters that were ruled frivolous in court before he ever even adopted them.

In other words, like many protesters, Hendrickson hopped around from one stupid theory to another. Now he is in prison for using his latest stupid theory on his own tax returns.

We see this over and over. You people hop around, looking for any and every theory for a rationale as to "why" the federal income tax supposedly does not apply to you. You people are intellectually dishonest.

And, like Hendrickson, many of you people attack people like me and other Quatloos regulars who point out your dishonesty. You people blame the messenger. You try to rationalize the fact that no tax protester argument has ever won in federal court in the entire history of the Republic by parroting crap about the courts being "corrupt."

Lorne, people like you have an answer for everything, but none of your answers are responsive.

No, lorne - the members of the tax protester crowd are the ones who are "cut from the same mold." You are delusional, narcissistic, self-centered phonies. You're liars.

And you're worse than liars.

Why? Because many of you falsely accuse others of being liars, without ever trying to back up what you say (I'm not talking about you personally here, but about others of your ilk). All you do, usually, is spout rhetoric. Look at "Harvester." He has falsely called me a liar many times, yet he has never tried to back up what he says -- because he knows he cannot back up what he says.

Many of you people, you tax deniers/tax protesters, complain about the tenor of the discussion here in this forum. Yet it is you people yourselves who abuse the spirit of the purpose for which the forum was founded -- the exposing of scams -- by falsely trying to assume a self-righteous mantle (often the mantle of "patriot" or "warrior" or "freedom lover") while participating in the scams and falsely accusing those who expose your dishonesty.

Yes, I refer to you people as "you people." YOU are the ones cut from the same mold. And it's not a pretty picture.
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Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by . »

"lorne" is a really, really, bad, downright pitiful troll.

Not worthy of further attention.
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Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by Gregg »

Hell, screw the money, I'll get by on a salary normally associated with a utility infielder with a .255 lifetime average. What I'm thankful for is the pure leisure of knowing that I'm reading LH for giggles and not in some increasingly desperate attempt to find a way out of the tens of thousands of dollars in Friv Penalties, fines, interest and back taxes, or trying to find the magic words to keep the IRS from selling my house on the courthouse steps or the special legal trick to get my employer to give me more than $172 a week to live on until I pay off my tax lien...or not having to go check my bank every day to see if the IRS has levied my direct deposit this week, or paying all my bills with money orders etc..you get the picture.

But hey, at least the crackheads are "standing tall" and not slaves or anything...
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Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by Famspear »

CaptainKickback wrote:.....grossly unfair to Curly, Moe, Larry, Shemp and Curly Joe - all of whom busted their humps to perfect the timing of their slapstick routines.......
When I was growing up, Curly was the source of all my intellectual development. I have never strayed far from his words of wisdom...

Curly: "I can't see! I can't see!"

Moe: "What's-a-matter??!??"

Curly: "I got my eyes closed! Nyukk nyukk nyukk nyukk!"

:Axe:
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
grammarian44

Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by grammarian44 »

lorne wrote:
darling wrote:
grammarian44 wrote:Query re: "Includes" argument:
...
So why doesn't Section 7701(c) of the Code settle the issue? It says that "when used as a definition contained in this title"--which must mean title 26--"the terms 'includes' and 'including' . . . shall not be deemed to exclude other things otherwise within the meaning of the term defined."
Here's Pete's reasoning:
http://www.losthorizons.com/comment/The ... ItSays.pdf
that reasoning makes sense to me. it presents a unified consistent whole. Although it's not clear unambiguous language, it appears written to intentionally mislead yet at the same time remain within the letter of the law. But I won't argue it here. almost all of you seem cut from the same mold.

Peace, Lorne

When I read that section on Pete's response to 7701(c), I saw a clear sense in which Pete and I agree: the key to Pete's response to 7701(c) is to say that is disposes of the meaning of "includes" in this way:
Pete wrote:Really, as thus used, it's just an elaborate formulation of the age-old legal maxim, "Because I said so."
I couldn't agree more. In fact, that was precisely my point all along regarding the meaning of "includes." The drafters of the law are the ones who get to decide what a word means; we only look beyond their text when they have failed to define a particular word. They have the right to define "income" to mean "a powder blue taffeta dress" if that's what they want to do. In this case, they have spoken loudly and clearly as to the meaning of "includes"; therefore, all the hand-wringing, all the appeals to dictionaries, and all the examples from cases mean nothing. The word means what they say it means. Otherwise, why did they bother to write 7701(c)? For their own amusement? I don't think so.

Of course my broader point is that the use of the word "includes" 3401(c) is irrelevant to the question of individual liability for taxes on wage income of all types. That question--again--is settled by sections 1, 63, and 61, sections that the tax protesters seem to respond to merely with attempts to change the subject.
Brandybuck

Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by Brandybuck »

lorne wrote:[But I won't argue it here. almost all of you seem cut from the same mold.
Listen up Bozo, and listen well. I HATE TAXES! I want the smallest government possible, which means the fewest taxes possible. The only reason I am not an anarchist is because I don't think it would work in practice. If the income tax were ever abolished I would take a week off work to go dancing in the street.

I HATE TAXES! Which is why I tax deniers who say "I would happily pay my taxes if only someone could 'show me the law'". I hate deniers who speak hocus pocus and shake rattles and pretend taxes don't exist, instead of actually doing something to lower them. You're not being courageous, you're being willfully ignorant. All you idiots living in fantasy land are not helping to get rid of taxes, you're actually making it worse by sullying the reputations of those who are out there working to lower taxes.

The truth is not what you or I imagine it to be, because the truth doesn't give a flying f**k what either of us think. The truth is what is. And what is happens to be that we have to pay taxes on our income. They are legal because the guys who get to determine what is or is not legal say they are legal. End of story.
Nikki

Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by Nikki »

Hamster has impressed Doreen :!:
Doreen wrote:
Libertas / Hamster / Ament du jour wrote:Final point is that we're only dealing with a small handful of oppressors here. Online anyway, the people you'll encounter supporting the government status quo are almost entirely Quatlosers. And of course, we totally outnumber them. STAND TALL WARRIORS!


Yeah!!!
Um, Doreen, how is it that the people you outnumber have (1) put your husband in prison for a few years and (2) cowed you into filing accurate tax returns?

Why didn't all your owls fly to your rescue? Why didn't all the warriors Stand Up And Fight? Where was all their support at the trials, the legal research, and the funding?

How long is it going to take for you to realize that you are wrong, married to a serial loser, in the process of being abandoned by all of your husband's victims, and are placing your children in jeopardy?
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Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by wserra »

Nikki wrote:Um, Doreen, how is it that the people you outnumber have (1) put your husband in prison for a few years and (2) cowed you into filing accurate tax returns?
Because we're the Illuminati, of course.
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Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by Judge Roy Bean »

wserra wrote:
Nikki wrote:Um, Doreen, how is it that the people you outnumber have (1) put your husband in prison for a few years and (2) cowed you into filing accurate tax returns?
Because we're the Illuminati, of course.
Ah yes, the principle of Occam's razor well applied! :lol:
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Famspear
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Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by Famspear »

I notice that in the same thread at losthorizons, user "kensei" posts various lies about me:
'Famspear [Larry Williams] has made over 10,000 article and tax decision related contributions with pro-tax related material to Wikipedia alone over the past year or so. He is also abusively reverse-editing out any contrary information that would show any questioning of the IRS tax collection methods. Even the Wiki administrators call him and "The Operator" on the carpet all the time about abusively removing other people's content. Believe it or not, it's out there and locatable if you know how to dig these things up to mine them for profiling information. That rate of contributions is unheard of, unless your handlers are funding you and directing you to do so."
(bolding added)

http://www.losthorizons.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2599

That is a blatant lie. I made less than a thousand total edits in Wikipeda over the year from the time of Kensei's post (the period from July 8, 2009 to July 8, 2010). I used to edit a lot at Wikipedia, but give me a break!

Indeed, it would take years to make ten thousand edits. Ten thousand edits in one year would be an average of 27 edits per day for 365 days. What a bunch of nitwits.

And, in my entire tenure at Wikipedia, since late 2005, no Wikipedia administrator has ever called me on the carpet for abusive editing. Not even once. Indeed, I have never even been charged with violating the Wikipedia "three revert rule."

These losthorizons lies are easily exposed; a history of edits at Wikipedia is public information. Of course, no one at losthorizons bothers to check on this or to challenge Kensei, who conveniently says he is just copying something from some other unnamed source.

EDIT: And if I have "handlers" who are supposed to be paying me, then darn it I want my money!

:)

EDIT 2: I notice that kensei refers to "The Operator." If "The Operator" posts at Wikipedia, it's news to me.
"My greatest fear is that the audience will beat me to the punch line." -- David Mamet
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Re: The Truth about Cracking the Code

Post by Joey Smith »

Threado too biggoh ..........
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