Loughner was a Tax Protester?

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

"Loughner (the Arizona killer) was a Tax Protester"
I keep hearing this claim, but am skeptical. Anybody have any hard facts about this?

[The Observer]

I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that Loughner might have made statements against the income tax laws, but I am sure that it was done in line with the rest of his anti-government spewing. Whether that makes him a "tax protestor" along the lines of the other TPs that we have discussed in this forum would require more evidence of his participation in groups or with other individuals known for being specifically involved in the frivolous theories arena. But I don't think such evidence is likely since it appear Loughner alienated nearly everyone he came into contact with.

[LPC]

Demo has claimed responsibility for the Tucson shootings, admitting that Loughner was one of "my guys".

I think that Demo is right about the "sovereign" mind-set, and my personal view is that the only reason that Loughner hadn't yet gotten around to being angry about the tax system is that he hadn't yet earned enough income to need to file a return, because he was still a college student.

[Judge Roy Bean]

Apparently he had a history of minimum-wage jobs and being fired from them for being rude or just walking out. Couple the inability to hold a job with mental illness and you'll also soon find people who make stuff up to explain what they can't understand.

As to whether or not that extends to contesting something like taxes is doubtful, especially when he probably never made enough to actually pay anything other than Social Security.

[LPC]

I'm also finding bloggers who believe that Loughner was a fan of : David Wynn : Miller, but I haven't yet seen the evidence for that.

[Demosthenes]

The David Wynn Miller thing came from Potok at the SPLC.

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/01/0 ... r=HW011311

I just don't see it. Full Colon Miller's quantum truth language is all about rules, and none of Loughner's writings follow any of those rules.

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

I've always taken the SPLC's take on things with a grain of salt. They tend to be a bit alarmist.

[Evil Squirrel Overlord]

Why can't nayone just come out and say that Loughner was nucking futs, 110% bat-sh*t crazy and that was the alpha and the omega of his existence.

Because we are all internet psychiatrists. Self-medicating one at that.

[bmielke]

Why can't nayone just come out and say that Loughner was nucking futs, 110% bat-sh*t crazy and that was the alpha and the omega of his existence.

There is no deeper socio-economic-political slant to his beliefs and actions, because his deeds and words were based on him being nuttier than a Texas pecan log (with apologies to that wonderful Texas treat).

Mainly because lIberals believe that mental institutions are evil, so if this guy was crazy and should have been put away for it that means that it may have good uses and they were wrong.

All good liberals know Guns and Conservatives by themselves are evil, get them together they are super evil. Super Evil trounces just plain evil so they can live their happy little lives knowing that it's not their crusading that's to blame.

[Pottapaug1938]

Mainly because lIberals believe that mental institutions are evil, so if this guy was crazy and should have been put away for it that means that it may have good uses and they were wrong.

Not in the least. The idea was that there was no medical justification for effectively giving all mentally ill people a life sentence to a mental hospital, and that money could be saved by closing the hospitals down and moving their services to community-based entities. The problem was that these entities are among the first to suffer at budget-cuttng time, so the projected results have never been achieved. What the solution is now, I don't know; but although I agree that something has to be done with nucking futcases like Loughner I don't want to return to the bad old days, either. People also have to be willing to pay for whatever is needed -- as a public safety expense, if nothing else.

[bmielke]

Mainly because lIberals believe that mental institutions are evil, so if this guy was crazy and should have been put away for it that means that it may have good uses and they were wrong.

Not in the least. The idea was that there was no medical justification for effectively giving all mentally ill people a life sentence to a mental hospital, and that money could be saved by closing the hospitals down and moving their services to community-based entities. The problem was that these entities are among the first to suffer at budget-cuttng time, so the projected results have never been achieved. What the solution is now, I don't know; but although I agree that something has to be done with nucking futcases like Loughner I don't want to return to the bad old days, either. People also have to be willing to pay for whatever is needed -- as a public safety expense, if nothing else.

The oroblem at least in Tennessee is, you have someone like Lougher, he commits a misdameanor they have the jail shrink talk to him, jail shrink says he's crazy send him out to an institution for evaluation and treatment. By Law the institutions (there are three) are limited to 1700 beds each, they have to keep 30+/- beds open for crisis team, the bulk of the rest are for civil commitments so there might be 50-100 rotating beds, they are resevered for Felony cases. So Mr. Misdameanir is told you can go now, sorry for holding you. Then he go's out and does more crime, but until he commits a felony he is in one door out the other in three days.

[bmielke]

Mainly because lIberals believe that mental institutions are evil, so if this guy was crazy and should have been put away for it that means that it may have good uses and they were wrong.

Not in the least. The idea was that there was no medical justification for effectively giving all mentally ill people a life sentence to a mental hospital, and that money could be saved by closing the hospitals down and moving their services to community-based entities. The problem was that these entities are among the first to suffer at budget-cuttng time, so the projected results have never been achieved. What the solution is now, I don't know; but although I agree that something has to be done with nucking futcases like Loughner I don't want to return to the bad old days, either. People also have to be willing to pay for whatever is needed -- as a public safety expense, if nothing else.

As far as what shuld be done. I think we need big institutions, with a sort of parole board of Doctors to refer out to the community once a person iss stable, unless of course they were convicted.

[Burzmali]

How evil am I people? I am conservative (on a number of things) like, really like guns, muscle cars, fast jets, explosions, liquor in its many forms, sexy women from 18 to 60 (there is my Julianne Moore + Gillian Anderson fantasy ), could care less about global warming, or that polar bears are getting lots of grizzly 'tang because of melting ice, rock AND roll music (including a number of the metal forms), and Hugh Hefner. Among other things.

That doesn't make you evil, it makes you a douchebag, sorry. If you wish to turn in you Ed Hardy gear and throw away your Axe body spray, civilized society is willing to accept you back.

[LaVidaRoja]

Yes, and no. Parenting is a BIG part of why kids go wrong. However, there ARE other things. A friend of mine is raising her grand-daughter. The mother (my friend's daughter) is SEVERLY bi-polar. Cannot/will not care for the child. That is NOT the parents' fault.
While I disapprove of "warehousing" the mentall ill (which was the program until the 60's or 70's) I also do NOT approve of letting people run loose until they PROVE themselves a danger.
I get regular mamograms, regular pap smears, regular (luckily 10-year intervals) colonoscopies. Why shouldn't I (and you, and all of us) get REGULAR mental-health exams? Of course, mental health today is where cancer was 40 years ago. It was something you didn't discuss in polite company. It was something you didn't admit to having until you were next to dead.
How many murders/suicides/acts of social impropriety might be averted if ALL of us received regular mental-health screenings?

[Paul]

and Hugh Hefner.

I think he's taken.

[Judge Roy Bean]

...
How many murders/suicides/acts of social impropriety might be averted if ALL of us received regular mental-health screenings?

Forced mental screening is a really bad idea for too many reasons to list.

[fortinbras]

From the descriptions of Loughner, I would be surprised if he earned enough to have to pay income tax.

[Pottapaug1938]

From the descriptions of Loughner, I would be surprised if he earned enough to have to pay income tax.

That wouldn't stop him from thinking that the ebil gummint is stealing too much of what little he does earn.

[Gregg]

Honestly, if you're that poor, the 8% FICA is a big bite. And it doesn't help that rich people only have to pay it on the first $100K or so....

[Olsenfin]

The voices in my head told me to stay home today and clean my guns (one of which is a Glock Model 22, in .40 caliber).

Seriously, the voices that I would like to hear far less are those that ascribe all the ills of our nation to "the liberals" or "the conservatives" - as if (a) those labels have any denotative meaning, (b) those who consider themselves to be "liberal" or "conservatives" are all alike, in views and behaviors, and (c) those to whom this kind of rhetoric is directed are too stupid to recognize that it's drivel.

Much is made, since the shootings, of how our political debate needs to be more "civil". Well, that's true enough, but an increase in expressed politeness won't fix the fact that much of the debate is not only uncivil, but childish. Hucksters of all stripes offer unsupported assertions as established fact, mischaracterize the positions of opponents, and employ fallacious reasoning. The Glen Beck and Michael Moores talk to us as though we're dull children, incapable of distinguishing between a reasoned argument and a snake oil pitch. And they do that because IT SUCCEEDS! Many Americans, it seems, truly cannot make that distinction. They buy claims about "death panels" (from the right) and "cop killer bullets" (from the left) because they're too lazy to check out whether those claims have any merit.

Yes, the political debate in this country needs to be more civil. But more than that, far more than that, it needs to be informed, logical, and intelligent. That will not happen unless and until the American electorate stops preferring witless sound bites to thoughtful analysis. And THAT won't happen for at least another couple of generations, during which we would demand that our children learn critical thinking - so that they would become capable of distinguishing logical arguments supported by factual evidence from pure bullshit.