The UK Bank and the Prom

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littleFred
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The UK Bank and the Prom

Post by littleFred »

"The Bank and the Prom" is a series of videos sometimes cited as evidence that banks accept home-made promissory notes. It turns out to be an example of the exact opposite.

Part 1

The story begins on 19 June 2012.

"martin-lee: mills" has an overdraft. He wants to pay it off with a PN for £4385.89, signed by Martin. He and his mate Paul Clancy try to pay it into Martin's bank account. They drop it into his bank's deposit box with a deposit slip. After a week, when it hasn't been credited to his account, they go into the bank to enquire. They talk to the branch manager.

The manager is confused. She is accustomed to how banks and promissory notes work, and she hasn't encountered SovCit fantasies. To her, a customer paying in a promissory note that was written by that same customer doesn't make any sense. There is no way to increase the balance of that customer's account because where would the funds come from? To her, it would make sense only if the promissory note came from someone else, a third party. Then there would be a source of funds: the bank might collect from the third party.

Martin says her version is garbage, his PN is cash 'cos Denning said so, and the usual junk we all know and love.

Part 2

More junk.

Part 3

Later that day, the manager phones Martin Lee Mills. She has faxed the PN to the bank's legal team. Martin repeats his junk about BoE 1882 and HSBC's Memorandum of Association. She can't give a definitive response today but, as far as the branch is concerned, the PN is not cash. Why do Martin and Paul think their PN is really cash?

The Bank and the Prom Episode 2 Part 1 of 3
5 July 2012. The manager has sent Martin a letter: a PN is a promise to pay, not an actual payment. "Please arrange for prompt payment of the monies outstanding on your accounts." Martin is not happy.

So Plan A didn't work. This was for Martin promising to pay into his own bank account. So they move to Plan B. In this cunning plan, Paul gives Martin a PN for £950,240. Martin can pay this into his own bank account, and the bank can ask Paul to honour his promise. Martin says Paul is good for it. What could possibly go wrong?

The Bank and the Prom Episode 2 Part 2 of 3

In the branch, Martin accuses the bank of fraud and theft. He and Paul are going to report this to the fraud squad and the police. While they are waiting to speak to the manager, they pay in the PN from Paul. [Huh? If I thought my bank was guilty of theft and fraud, I wouldn't hand over something I thought was worth £950,240. But that's just me.] They "serve a notice" to the manager, though it contains a load of questions they want her to answer. She asks them to leave.

The notice (at 4m 56s) is a load of junk assertions, including the right to sue the manager personally for three times the amount on the PNs.

The Bank and the Prom Episode 2 Part 3 of 3

There is a third PN. I don't know where that came from.

So that is the story, as far as we know it. The bank have Martin's promissory notes, and these are not credited to his account. His current account no longer shows up on his online screen. Martin will take this to the ombudsman etc etc. This last video ends tantalisingly with the start of a phone call from HSBC to Martin. I can't find any later updates.

I have to say that I don't think Martin believes what he is saying. Nobody with an ounce of sense would hand over something they believed was worth £950,000 to a bank they believed was fraudulent. Well, okay, I'll admit the possibility that he does believe this but he is absolutely totally stupid.

See also the GOODF threads, which contain much congratulatory guff that misses the sad fact that Martin totally failed:
http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/v ... T_cKZPu18E
http://www.getoutofdebtfree.org/forum/v ... T_DQ5Pu18E
Last edited by littleFred on Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The UK Bank and the Prom

Post by Arthur Rubin »

littleFred wrote:The notice (at 4m 56s) is a load of junk assertions, including the right to sue the manager personally for three times the amount on the PNs.
Referring the US RICO law, no doubt. :brickwall:
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Re: The UK Bank and the Prom

Post by NYGman »

I am guessing the bank got fed up with these Bozo's and wrote off the debt. Banks will write off that they consider small amounts, all the time, if they determine they are not collectable. In the US, at least, they can then take a deduction for the debt, once they discharge it. The bank may also issue a 1099 COD, reflecting taxable income to the debtor, in the amount of the debt forgiveness. Sometimes, it is more efficient to cancel the debt and take the loss, than to wait for a Bankruptcy where there are no assets to collect on.

The problem is that when the bank does this, these idiots think they have won. I guess it is sort of true in a way. Just wondering, in the UK, if a bank writes off a debt as uncollectable, does the debtor also receive a tax statement reflecting the discharge as income? I would think so, but I am not well versed in UK tax rules. However, the principal of enrichment would be the same, and I believe it would most likely be taxable in the UK, as if it isn't, it opens up a potential area for income tax abuse.
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Re: The UK Bank and the Prom

Post by littleFred »

I don't know if the bank wrote-off Martin's debt. If they did, it would be an allowable deduction.

I did read somewhere that a bad-debtor would be taxed on this write-off as if it were income, but that may have been in the USA or other far-flung place.
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Re: The UK Bank and the Prom

Post by longdog »

NYGman wrote:I am guessing the bank got fed up with these Bozo's and wrote off the debt. Banks will write off that they consider small amounts, all the time, if they determine they are not collectable.
It's extremely unlikely a UK bank would write off a four grand debt solely on the basis that the customer was a bit of a tosser. Forty pounds possibly... Four thousand... No.

I would hazard a guess that the reason this muppet could no longer pull up his account on-line is because the bank have had enough of his fucking about and closed the account for all intents and purposes and passed the debt on to their legal / collections department.
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Re: The UK Bank and the Prom

Post by Hyrion »

longdog wrote:I would hazard a guess that the reason this muppet could no longer pull up his account on-line is because the bank have had enough of his fucking about and closed the account for all intents and purposes and passed the debt on to their legal / collections department.
Perhaps partially locking the account while the situation is under Legal review. It's an overdraft situation - if I was the bank, he owed 4k but his overdraft was to 10k, I certainly wouldn't want him drawing more on the account. Doesn't matter if that attempt was made on-line, through debit, etc.

Meanwhile, I say partially lock the account because I'm sure they would allow deposits into the account to go through - like possibly payment deposits from work. That would be a pretty certain way to get the overdraft paid.

Once the overdraft is paid, detach the overdraft from the account so he can't go into the negative and unlock the account. That's how I'd handle the situation if I was the bank manager :twisted:

Of course: that would depend on how Legal responded to such a strategy regarding the Banks possible liabilities 8)
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Re: The UK Bank and the Prom

Post by littleFred »

One of Martin's complaints, in the first session with the bank manager, was that he couldn't withdraw money from his overdrawn account but the bank could and did add charges. He considered this unfair.

So the account was already partially locked before he started messing with PNs. I don't suppose his subsequent actions made the bank look upon him more favourably.
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Re: The UK Bank and the Prom

Post by ArthurWankspittle »

NYGman wrote: Just wondering, in the UK, if a bank writes off a debt as uncollectable, does the debtor also receive a tax statement reflecting the discharge as income? I would think so, but I am not well versed in UK tax rules.
No, in a word. It is just a write off for the bank's business. The debtor still has the debt until the effective SOL (that's not the UK term) runs out. I suspect in law the debt always exists but it is uncollectable after 6 or 12 years; probably related to that, credit reports here usually go back 6 years. Chances are the debt is sold, so the bank's books show say, £4000 written off minus the £750 they sold the debt for. The debt now belongs to the purchaser of the debt, so still exists.
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Re: The UK Bank and the Prom

Post by wserra »

So they tried, without success, The Operation and The Other Operation. I, for one, can't wait for The Other Other Operation.
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Re: The UK Bank and the Prom

Post by vampireLOREN »

wserra wrote:So they tried, without success, The Operation and The Other Operation. I, for one, can't wait for The Other Other Operation.
Having sat through the videos, I am beginning to see there might just be something in Peter of England 's last mission statement. He stated that not all the assistance comes from the Planet Earth. The Archive Man if he is the baldy?? is definitely from the Planet Zod.
My sympathy is to the poor bank manager I would have punched the little one right on his nose and choked Baldy to my hearts content.
I hope the bank chased that swine for the money. :D
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Re: The UK Bank and the Prom

Post by PeanutGallery »

What makes me laugh is that when the scam didn't work for a smaller amount, they decided to go back and try the same scam for a higher amount. It's a childish understanding of economic theory, and I say that because when I was a child I can recall being quite fixated on the meaning of the promise to pay that was emblazoned on all legal tender.

I wondered, as a child, if I could make a promise to pay that would be as good as legal tender. I then asked myself what I would do if the bearer came looking for the promised payment. I realised I would need to back up my promise with resources, before I made it, so that my promise would be good. These people seem to have disconnected with the notion that if they make a promise they have to keep it.

I concluded that it was the strength of the promise that gave the note it's value. If I go into a Bank with a £10 note I can redeem it to my account for £10. That value is transferred to me from the Bank of England. They keep their promise by making the numbers in my account go up £10. This is because the bank has the resources to make the promise good.

I further realised that if I was able to make promises for large sums of money that I would never need to make good on, that there would be nothing to prevent me from making up any sum of money and giving it to myself. Equally there would be nothing to prevent others from doing the same. This would, I rationalised, lead to hyperinflation, no amount of money would be able to buy anything because the seller could just imagine a bigger number or any bid would immediately be trumped by someone pledging the equivalent of infinity plus one.

I worked this out as a child. I am saddened that two grown men seem unable to grasp what is a quite basic part of economic theory and have blinded themselves to the reality of money through avarice.
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Re: The UK Bank and the Prom

Post by Hyrion »

PeanutGallery wrote:infinity plus one
You think small.... I've always preferred infinity to the power of infinity.
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Re: The UK Bank and the Prom

Post by mufc1959 »

I am guessing the bank got fed up with these Bozo's and wrote off the debt.
My guess is that the account's been frozen because of money-laundering/fraud concerns. CIFAS will probably have been notified. But the bank can't tell the customer because of the POCA and the prohibition against 'tipping off'.
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Re: The UK Bank and the Prom

Post by PeanutGallery »

Doesn't the bank manager say, in I think the first video - but I could be mistaken, that she will freeze the account (or at least stop them having access to it) while they claim to be in dispute, but that this won't stop the bank from charging interest or applying fees based on the overdraft.

This seems to be a response to their claim that they are in dispute about the overdraft fees and interest because the bank didn't accept their worthless promise. I would doubt that the bank refusing to accept another equally worthless promise has been enough to resolve this dispute and as such the account is likely to be frozen until they actually pay their debts with something of actual value.
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