Are the Banks/government to blame for the rise in sites like GOODF

[letissier14]

Are the Banks/government to blame for the rise in sites like GOODF?

I believe that the way the government, banks and debt collectors etc behave, does have a massive input in the rise of sites like goodf, beatthebanksandbailiffs, EFOTB and so on.

I base this on my own experience and the reason that I ended up on goodf. I will keep it as brief as possible.

I lost my job, had to sell our flat at a loss. moved in with my in-laws and then ended up splitting from my ex wife. With bills still to pay, debts owed, needing to find somewhere else to live and a young child to support my life was a mess.

Luckily I managed to get another job though on a lot less money and also moved in with a family member, but trying to sort my debts was a nightmare.

Firstly I contacted my creditors to which virtually all of them were not interested in helping me. In fact it didn't take them long before they sold my debts on to a debt collector.

I then contacted CAB who told me to set up a repayment plan. I contacted the various debt collectors and sent them an income/expenditure sheet with a small monthly payment offer which I could barely afford. Only 1 of the debt collectors accepted my offer, whilst the rest hounded me for larger payments which were simply beyond my means.

When I say hounded me, they constantly phoned me, sometimes up to 5 or 6 times a day, wrote to me on a weekly basis with each letter becoming more threatening then the previous one. They contacted my parents and brothers on their private phone numbers telling them they needed to speak to me about an urgent money matter. There was also the constant emails and threats of a home visit.

It was only when I was threatened on the phone with bankruptcy that I snapped and it was because of this that I took to the internet and eventually found goodf.

Now I was at a very low ebb and for a while I got sucked into the fmotl nonsense, but luckily for me there were 1 or 2 very knowledgeable guys on goodf, who gave me some great advice and with their help I started to clear my debts. I soon dropped all the fmotl nonsense and concentrated on educating myself on the consumer credit act, data protection act, etc and started to help others. I was then asked to be a mod on goodf and accepted, but not because I believed in the fmotl rubbish, but because I could help others who were in debt with nowhere to turn to.

I cleared all my debts and have even removed 11 defaults from my credit file, all based on what I educated myself in. I then eventually stepped down from goodf because I didn't like the way the site was going.

Now I can see why people get sucked into the fmotl sites, because when you are feeling really down and often depressed, and you think you have nowhere to turn to, sites like goodf can give you a belief that you are worth something and that you can sort your problems out (though admittedly it can be a false hope in a lot of cases) especially when you do see others having success in clearing their debts.

But the fact remains that banks, credit card companies, debt collectors, councils, bailiffs etc are not interested in helping you, they just want your money no matter what and I have seen first hand how they can destroy your life.

Most people I have helped (and I have helped many) are all willing to pay back what they have borrowed, they just need a little understanding from these organisations, but unfortunately they just don't get it.

So in my opinion they are to blame for the rise in fmotl sites. If they were more caring and took into account peoples personal financial problems, more people would pay there debts. People are now saying "f*** you" I don't care about my credit rating and you're not getting your money back, I asked you for help but you flatly refused.

Something is going to have to give at some point and it is all going be quite messy

[AndyPandy]

I certainly believe the amount of credit available pre economic downturn has had a huge impact on people getting into too much (unrepayable) debt.

Debt is a constant worry and makes people desperate, not to mention depressed and anxious. GOODF is a community of people who support those in debt and I sometimes think it's that that draws people in, they see someone willing to help and support even where the 'help' is unorthodox.

There are good people on there that give sound advise, especially where it comes to Court cases.

As to the original question, banks definitely have a lot to answer to, Government hasn't helped, Council Tax debt and the way that's handled (debtors prison ??) is nothing short of a national scandal !

[NG3]

Are the Banks/government to blame for the rise in sites like GOODF?

No.

But I would say the behaviour of Freemen, and the damage done to our economy by the tactics of sites like GOODF do have an impact on others that perpetuates the problem.

[PeanutGallery]

Debt can also lead a person to experience mental illness, and that does have a very serious impact on their capacity to deal with things in a rational manner. Equally in 2008, when the banks got bailed out - too big to fail - it created a political schism, the banks were being helped by the taxpayer but the victims of their wanton lending were not being so supported.

This led to the taxpayer giving money to a bank that was then evicting the taxpayers who had just paid to bail it out. From the perspective of the evicted taxpayer this was obviously unfair, public money was being used in a manner that had an adverse affect on the public. From the perspective of a taxpayer who wasn't facing eviction or was a shareholder in the bank, they would have viewed it only right that the bank use the bailout money to stabilise itself and to recover as much as possible from those defaulting on the loans. Equally it would have been unfair had you been a customer who was struggling to meet the repayments, but actually meeting them, if your neighbour was given public money because they couldn't, or in your opinion wouldn't, repay.

The bailout therefore divided a lot of public opinion. At the same time a number of people got very rich from investing, either by shorting stock or by buying bank stock after it had collapsed (knowing it was too big to fail). That again rubbed some up the wrong way, but for every millionaire created from this, others were destroyed.

Of course this topic does touch on politics and it is difficult to give an opinion without also touching on that issue. Certainly a lot of recent government policy has helped to ostracise those on low incomes or the disabled (who are most at risk of getting into unsustainable levels of debt).

Therefore I think it was both a lack of trust in the banking sector and a feeling that the government and the banks were both against those unfortunate enough to have been adversely affected by the crash and austerity policies which helped to lead to a rise in websites like GOODF and in the current anti-establishment mood felt by the majority of those who did suffer hardship as a result of 2008.

At the same time you are right to point out that some loan companies can be extremely aggressive in pursuing outstanding debts and that often what a person needs is time and a degree of good fortune in recovering to a position where they have a stable income.

[letissier14]

Are the Banks/government to blame for the rise in sites like GOODF?

No.

But I would say the behaviour of Freemen, and the damage done to our economy by the tactics of sites like GOODF do have an impact on others that perpetuates the problem.

I don't agree that Freemen damage the economy as in my experience they only end damaging themselves in the long run and anyone stupid enough to follow their advice.

Being an ex MOD on goodf I can honestly say that the majority of people that I helped on there, were there to get help with their debt problems and very few of them would ever consider themselves fmotl or were even in interested in the concept of it. If you actually look on goodf even now, you will find it is only a handful who are promoting the fmotl ways.

The question I'm asking is why so many people are finding their way to goodf and similar sites, and the answer to that in my experience, is the genuine lack of help out there.

Both CAB & National Debt Line are seriously under funded in terms of finance, training, support and good advice. To contact a solicitor is beyond the finances of most people in debt.

Banks, bailiffs, councils and debt collectors don't follow the guidelines set out to help people and are very unhelpful in general.

Then you have the utilities companies that offer schemes to those in dire financial positions but don't actually inform them of such.

[hobgoblin]

So in my opinion they are to blame for the rise in fmotl sites. If they were more caring and took into account peoples personal financial problems, more people would pay there debts. People are now saying "f*** you" I don't care about my credit rating and you're not getting your money back, I asked you for help but you flatly refused.

Something is going to have to give at some point and it is all going be quite messy

My story is very similar. Ten or so years ago I got into a load of debt after I lost a well paid job through no fault of my own and had to take another on less than half the salary. My creditors didn't give a flying f*** about me even though I asked them for help. After suffering weeks of stress I found out about IVAs and successfully applied for one, which meant that the debt collectors had to stop hounding me. Five years later I was debt free but in the state I was in at the time I could easily have gone down the woo woo path and lost everything.

I first came to Quatloos when I was researching Were Bank after my best friend told me he was going to clear all his debts with help from Peter. Happily he took my advice and is now sorting himself out via the IVA route.

So yes, the banks do have a lot to answer to.

[NG3]

I don't agree that Freemen damage the economy

Who do you think paid the police bill at the Crawford farces?

Who pays when someone avoids their debts?

The cost of fraud in this country is huge.

It's an old fact, but still relevant, that if the cost of crime was recouped and shared proportionally poverty would be eliminated.

Of course freemen damage the economy.

[letissier14]

My story is very similar. Ten or so years ago I got into a load of debt after I lost a well paid job through no fault of my own and had to take another on less than half the salary. My creditors didn't give a flying f*** about me even though I asked them for help. After suffering weeks of stress I found out about IVAs and successfully applied for one, which meant that the debt collectors had to stop hounding me. Five years later I was debt free but in the state I was in at the time I could easily have gone down the woo woo path and lost everything.

I first came to Quatloos when I was researching Were Bank after my best friend told me he was going to clear all his debts with help from Peter. Happily he took my advice and is now sorting himself out via the IVA route.

So yes, the banks do have a lot to answer to.

I don't think people understand the misery and depression that can often result from being in debt, which is then compounded with the constant threats of legal action and lack of help from creditors.

I stood on the edge of being a fmotl, not so much because I believed in it (deep down I knew it was rubbish and didn't make sense), but because it was the only help I was getting at the time.

There is a fine line between doing whats right and whats wrong when you are in debt, and when you are not thinking straight, it could be quite easy to choose the wrong path.

[Pox]

I don't agree that Freemen damage the economy

Of course freemen damage the economy.

A so - called freeman (or a 'freeman of convenience ' as I prefer to view it) certainly damaged my OWN personal economy to the tune of many thousands of pounds - am I bitter - too damned right I am

[NG3]

Here's a little fact for you, letissier14. More tax payers money has been spent on policing and legal costs for the Crawford case than will be spent this year, in this city, on homelessness and emergency housing (& in relation to your earlier comment given to CAB).

How many more people could have been helped in this city without those costs?

Yes, GOODF damages the economy and perpetuates the problem.

[letissier14]

I don't agree that Freemen damage the economy

Who do you think paid the police bill at the Crawford farces?

Who pays when someone avoids their debts?

The cost of fraud in this country is huge.

It's an old fact, but still relevant, that if the cost of crime was recouped and shared proportionally poverty would be eliminated.

Of course freemen damage the economy.

Let's put that in to context.

Yes the tax man footed the police bill, no argument with that

The people pay when someone avoids a debt, again no argument there.

Yes the cost of fraud is huge in this country......

The fraud of banks not paying their dues and be bailed out by the public is huge.
The fraud of businesses not paying their corporation tax is absolutely gigantic.
The fraud of parliamentary expenses is huge.
The fraud of parliamentary bureaucracy is massive.
The fraud of fines imposed on parents for taking kids on holiday in term time is huge.
The fraud of fines imposed on crimes due to poverty is beyond a joke.

Freemen hardly dent the economy to what is listed above.

[NG3]

Freemen hardly dent the economy to what is listed above.

I'd check your figures if I was you, you might be surprised

[letissier14]

Here's a little fact for you, letissier14. More tax payers money has been spent on policing and legal costs for the Crawford case than will be spent this year, in this city, on homelessness and emergency housing (& in relation to your earlier comment given to CAB).

How many more people could have been helped in this city without those costs?

Yes, GOODF damages the economy and perpetuates the problem.

That's a silly comment ....

How many people need to be homeless considering that there are approx 635,000 empty properties in England alone.

You want to stop poverty, you need to work from the top downwards

How many more people could be helped in this country if we didn't spend over £1.5 billion on our defence budget?

How many more people could have been helped if we didn't spend £93bn on huge subsidies and tax breaks – more than £3,500 for each UK household each year?

How many more people could have been helped if we didn't give the EU £33 million per day?

I know, lets blame some deluded old fool who didn't want to pay his mortgage instead.

[NG3]

Here's a little fact for you, letissier14. More tax payers money has been spent on policing and legal costs for the Crawford case than will be spent this year, in this city, on homelessness and emergency housing (& in relation to your earlier comment given to CAB).

How many more people could have been helped in this city without those costs?

Yes, GOODF damages the economy and perpetuates the problem.

That's a silly comment ....

No, it's a statement of facts

How many people need to be homeless

No one "needs" to be homeless, but the fact is many people are, and more are because of freemen.

It's a fact

You want to stop poverty, you need to work from the top downwards

No, you need to target where the problems are, regardless of where they are.

Why should anyone pay for anyone else's greed and dishonesty?

I know, lets blame some deluded old fool who didn't want to pay his mortgage instead.

No one's said that, but why should any criminals get a free pass, especially at the expense of honest people?

That's the GOODF attitude, an attitude that perpetuates the misery.

[letissier14]

No one said he should get a free pass?

You said that ....... No one "needs" to be homeless, but the fact is many people are, and more are because of freemen. It's a fact"

Have you got figures that prove this?

[Pox]

Politics

Anyway, back to GOODF, ETFOTB etc and Freemen.

On the face of it, if the FMOTL lot kept themselves to themselves and didn't cause harm to others (financially or otherwise ) I would just dismiss them as another harmless cult, sect, call it what you will.
But they do cause harm, as we have seen.

IMO, the vast majority on GOODF and similar sites are there because they are trying to find an excuse to not pay their debts to society and their fellow men. I don't believe that they really adhere to the strawman nonsense that they spew out nor any other wacky theories, they are just a diversion and a smoke screen.

I have no idea what it must be like to be sinking in debt, thankfully, but I have always tried to live within my means.

Unlike some, I don't think that the world will end if I don't have a holiday, or three.

I fully understand that many are in debt due to unfortunate circumstances like loss of a job or illness and these people should be helped as much as possible which is what I would hope that the welfare system is for but there are plenty others who are in debt because they are work shy, gadget hungry or just refuse to tighten their belts to meet their obligations.

I don't know what CAB and the other organisations are like because I have never had to use them but earlier on this year I had a large unexpected tax bill. I spoke to HMRC and found them very helpful - an agreement was made to pay in 4 monthly instalments. I felt comfortable with this but they bent over backwards to offer me a longer period if I wanted, stressing that I should not overcommit myself, which I felt was very fair.

I believe that councils, energy companies etc. offer the same sort of assistance.

It's the jokers who offer silly amounts like £1 per week that they have issues with, and rightly so in many cases (those that have a war chest,for example).

[wanglepin]

Are the Banks/government to blame for the rise in sites like GOODF

Does this include those unbalanced Freeman On The Land sites? and I believe your question is slightly loaded.

[letissier14]

It's the jokers who offer silly amounts like £1 per week that they have issues with, and rightly so in many cases (those that have a war chest,for example).

When you have half a dozen debts and you are paying £1 per week to each debt and you are on benefits, that is not a silly amount by a long shot.

[letissier14]

Are the Banks/government to blame for the rise in sites like GOODF

Does this include those unbalanced Freeman On The Land sites? and I believe your question is slightly loaded.

I don't believe it was a loaded question at all.

I'm not saying it is all just down to Banks/governments etc, but I don't think they help

[NG3]

You said that ....... No one "needs" to be homeless, but the fact is many people are, and more are because of freemen. It's a fact"

Have you got figures that prove this?

I gave you figures further up, the budget for homelessness, emergency housing and CAB have been slashed and are lower than spent on the Crawford farces.

If tax payers money wasn't going to the latter, it could go to the former, and more people would be off the streets.

There was a guy in Nottingham who died the other month. A good guy, born into a pit village, grew up in Thatcher's Britain, didn't want to go down the mines, so enlisted.

He served in Germany (British forces of the Rhine) and did a tour in Northern Ireland.

Came out of the forces with "issues", failed to adjust, eventually spiralled into substance abuse, alcoholism, and homelessness.

The last couple of years he suffered terribly from depression, and wanted to sort his life out.

Unfortunately, due to cuts, there's low funding to help people like him, and all sorts of waiting lists, so they didn't get to him in time, and he passed away the other month.

I knew him, he was a good man.

So you now have both the figures, and a real life victim.

This freemen crap costs, and those costs hurt people, often the poorest and most vulnerable in society, thus perpetuating the misery.