Facebook group - Bailiff proof your car

[fat frank]

they claim they have bound your goods, but how do they know what goods you have, this is one of the reasons they need a signed walking possession order, as otherwise they haven't got a clue what someone owns, worse thing you can do is let a bailiff in the house, keep car in a LTD companys name and that cant be touched either, if your goods where bound, then why cant they force entry with out a signed walking possession order?

think that case was over a car,

They don't need to know what goods you have - if any - you cannot sell, transfer or dispose of anything. Signed walking possession is a thing of the past since April 2014 and no longer applicable. Keeping a car in a Ltd Co is no bar as goods belonging to a Ltd Co have no protection and in any case for some of these wallys they could not keep up with the paperwork. You should also note it is a misconception that Bailiffs cannot force entry - a little known entry in the TCE Act allows this to happen - via a Court Order - if it is suspected that there may be goods on the premises that if sold could satisfy the debt. This has happened several times although usually restricted to those who have visible trappings of wealth but refuse to open the door - read into this big detached house, big car on drive - & usually done in High Court cases.

so your say goods that belong to a ltd can be taken for my debt?

bailiffs can force entry for a court fine, with written permission from the courts, as they have to apply to the court in writing for permission,

if a signed walking order is a thing of the past, why do they still ask you to sign one then,

they haven't got a clue what people have in there homes, so cant bound any thing, as they could claim you had a 80 inch tv, and now you only got a b and w portable, but is manily aimed at stopping you selling car

[littleFred]

Many assertions are being made on this thread about what bailiffs are or are not allowed to do. It would be helpful if sources could be cited. Otherwise, it's a Punch and Judy show: "Oh yes they can", "Oh no they can't."

Thanks.

[Bungle]

According to the page creator of bailiff proof your car, he has used it after explaining it's legal tender

Yeah right...pull the other one. Bailiffs would laugh their socks off if they had this Promissory Note' waved at them.

[Greengrass]

bailiffs can force entry for a court fine, with written permission from the courts, as they have to apply to the court in writing for permission, The Warrant issued from the Court carries the power to force entry they do not need to go back to specifically ask.

if a signed walking order is a thing of the past, why do they still ask you to sign one then, Walking Possession Orders no longer exist - the equivalent is now called a Controlled Goods Agreement - even so a WPA if signed allowed the Bailiff to charge a further fee, nowadays if the CGA is not signed the chances are the Bailiff will remove the goods under Control.

they haven't got a clue what people have in there homes, so cant bound any thing, as they could claim you a 80 inch tv, and now you only got a b and w portable, but is manily aimed at stopping you selling car - as said previously they don't need to know as the binding of goods is a blanket that covers everything, it moves a stage further should the debtor try to dispose of anything.

You really need to be aware of the changes in the law from April 2014 as none of the "old" system is relevant. A good starting point is on CAG @ http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/fo ... uding-HCEO If you have the time the TCE Act 2007 Schedule 12 are what you need & think it is Part 2 that deals with bound goods http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/15/schedule/12

[FatGambit]

I think there's some major blurring of the lines going on here over what EA's and HCEA's can do, generally entry can only be forced into a private residence if it's for a magistrates fine, an additional court order has been obtained for HMRC debt or an order has been issued relating to suspected disposal of assets.

Business premises is a different matter, they can kick the door in no problem, but private residence + civil debt means no more rights of entry than your milkman.

Of course, an HCEA and a regular EA would like you to think otherwise, and will often bring in the Police as backup to try and intimidate entry, but generally despite what the usually totally clueless PCSO says, if it is for a civil debt, the EA can't force entry, it is only a matter if time before one of these EA's pushes past someone on the doorstep because they think they can, knocks the person over and they die as result, some of these EA's think their shit doesn't stink, when frankly it's the worst ever.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt- ... your-home/

99% of entries are done by intimidation or leaving out certain facts as to the circumstances, and 99% of the time the debtor has no clue what's going on, and many people don't know the difference between doorstep collectors, enforcement agents and bailiffs.

[fat frank]

thanks for those links, but I never believe a word on CAG, most are employed by bailiff companys to make you pay there fees

Bound goods, they claim your goods are bound, but they don't know what you got, so unless they can prove you owe something, then how can they prove you got rid of them, unless they have a signed CGA then they cant force entry, they cant look in your window list some of your good and then say its all controlled,

Force Entry, this came out in January 2015

“Warrant of control: application by enforcement agent for extension of time, etc.

52.8.—(1) This rule applies where an enforcement agent wants the court to exercise a power under Schedule 12 to the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, or under regulations made under that Schedule, to—

(a)

shorten or extend a time limit;
.

(b)

give the agent authority to—
.

(i)

enter premises which the agent would not otherwise have authority to enter,
.

(ii)

enter or remain on premises at a time at which the agent would not otherwise have authority to be there,
.

(iii)

use reasonable force, in circumstances in which the agent would not otherwise have authority to use such force,
.

(iv)

sell goods by a method which the agent would not otherwise have authority to use, or
.

(v)

recover disbursements which the agent would not otherwise have authority to recover;
.

(c)

specify the manner in which goods which have not been sold must be disposed of.
.
(2) Such an enforcement agent must—

(a)

apply in writing;
.

(b)

serve the application on the court officer; and
.

(c)

pay any fee prescribed.
.
(3) The application must—

(a)

identify the power that the agent wants the court to exercise;
.

(b)

explain how the conditions for the exercise of that power are satisfied, including any condition that requires the agent to give another person notice of the application;
.

(c)

specify those persons, if any, to whom the agent has given notice in accordance with such a condition; and
.

(d)

propose the terms of the order that the agent wants the court to make.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015 ... le/10/made

the WOC only allows them to go to the property on the warrant, otherwise it is trespassing, as they cant be done for trespassing at the address on the warrant, bailiffs will claim they are allowed to go where ever they want, but they cant, this is why they cant go on private property or someone elses drive to clamp your car, because if they could go where they wanted then they would just do that,

Remember bailiff tried to claim that as of april 14, they was allowed to take any vehicle if it was at a property to pay for anyones debt, a few tried this and ended up paying out in compo, as its called theft

a lot of bailiffs will try to claim one part of the rules apply to other parts, but it doesnt, these scumbags only want there fees

[fat frank]

a bailiff can only force entry if he has a signed CGA, he as already been in your property and you removed him or its a repo,

A HCEO can climb over a gate and force open a shed if its not attached to the house,

so unless a bailiff can get in your house then he cant really do much, he cant take your car, but if your car belongs to a LTD company ha cant even clamp it, as once its clamped you can sue as he should of checked with the DVLA who owns it before he clamped it

if a bailiff really had the power to force entry and take your goods as they was all bound, then why don't they just do that, turn up, force entry and take stuff, they want there fees as most peoples stuff is worthless or exempt,

(I am referring to residential not commercial)

a lot of bailiffs relay on the fact that police don't know bailiff laws, and think the court order is all powerful

[Bungle]

Remember bailiff tried to claim that as of april 14, they was allowed to take any vehicle if it was at a property to pay for anyones debt, a few tried this and ended up paying out in compo, as its called theft

a lot of bailiffs will try to claim one part of the rules apply to other parts, but it doesnt, these scumbags only want there fees

Are there any links anywhere with case details where compensation has been paid out.

[fat frank]

will try and find some,

[Bungle]

Force Entry, this came out in January 2015

“Warrant of control: application by enforcement agent for extension of time, etc.

52.8.—(1) This rule applies where an enforcement agent wants the court to exercise a power under Schedule 12 to the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, or under regulations made under that Schedule, to—
(a)
shorten or extend a time limit;
(b)
give the agent authority to—

(i)
enter premises which the agent would not otherwise have authority to enter,

Frank,

Enforcement agents can force entry to enforce for defaulted court fines and they don't need to apply to court for this permission. Schedule 52.8 is about court applications to shorten or extend a time limit or more importantly:

'to give the agent authority to enter premises which the agent would not otherwise have authority to enter'

The enforcement agent has the 'authority' to force entry into the fine defaulters premises and this permission is made clear in the primary legislation (Section 18.b of Schedule 12 of the Tribunal Courts and Enforcement Act 2007). For ease of reference:

Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007

General powers to use reasonable force
17
Where paragraph 18 or 19 applies, an enforcement agent may if necessary use reasonable force to enter premises or to do anything for which the entry is authorised.

18
This paragraph applies if these conditions are met—
(a)
the enforcement agent has power to enter the premises under paragraph 14 or 16 or under a warrant under paragraph 15;
(b)
he is acting under an enforcement power conferred by a warrant of control under section 76(1) of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 (c. 43) for the recovery of a sum adjudged to be paid by a conviction;

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/200 ... view=plain

[Bungle]

There's more reporting about 'forced entry' rights for court fines here.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/fo ... y+protocol

Further information here:

http://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/latest ... -procedure


And here you will see a pdf copy of the Forced Entry Power Procedure from Her Majesty's Courts & Tribunal Service:

http://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/wp-con ... uly-14.pdf

[fat frank]

"What does the contractor have to do before using forced entry powers?

‘The contractor is responsible for ensuring that either the forced entry power which it is proposed to use is available without a court warrant, or that if such a power is not available, a warrant is obtained from the court under the relevant legislation.

However, no forced entry to arrest or take control of goods against the defaulter should be attempted without first attempting to seek the prior approval of the court Nominated Officer, although responsibility for the actual forced entry will remain with the contractor.

Before approval can be given the contractor’s enforcement agent /Manager must contact the Nominated Officer explaining their reasons to use forced entry and the method to be used i.e. use of a locksmith. This should be short and to the point. Once considered and if approved a written record must be maintained. This should be recorded at the earliest opportunity following the forced entry incident.

Where approval is withheld further dialogue should be undertaken to agree a suitable way forward.(3.5)

If the Court Nominated officer or any deputy is not available to give approval at the relevant time, then the contractor may proceed to use the powers of entry at their own discretion.

A record that contact was attempted with the Nominated Officer, including date & time, must be endorsed in the contractor’s database’."

"Note from Bailiff Advice Online:

As is made clear in HMCTS’s Forced Entry Procedure the bailiff may use the power to force entry if he considers that the debtor is in the property but refusing to engage with the enforcement agent. Secondly, before considering using a locksmith etc the bailiff should ‘attempt’ to seek prior approval from a Nominated Officer at the court but that if such an officer is not available at that particular time, that the bailiff may use his own discretion to force entry. Given the seriousness of this it is vitally important that debtors try to address their court fine at the earliest opportunity (preferably on receipt of the Notice of Enforcement)."



still says they need to seek permission, they cant just turn up and force there way in, but if they do they are doing it off there own back, and the person must be in the house, they cant just turn up and force entry, which is what they try and claim they are allowed to do, if you never speak to them, they are powerless,

but to be honest I think we could argue this all day, you have your opinion and I have mine, my understanding is they need permission but can do it off there own back, if the person is in and refusing to speak to them, but what law says you must speak to a bailiff or even answer the door,

[PeanutGallery]

As is made clear in HMCTS’s Forced Entry Procedure the bailiff may use the power to force entry if he considers that the debtor is in the property but refusing to engage with the enforcement agent. Secondly, before considering using a locksmith etc the bailiff should ‘attempt’ to seek prior approval from a Nominated Officer at the court but that if such an officer is not available at that particular time, that the bailiff may use his own discretion to force entry. Given the seriousness of this it is vitally important that debtors try to address their court fine at the earliest opportunity (preferably on receipt of the Notice of Enforcement)."
[...]
if you never speak to them, they are powerless,

Not quite, if you don't speak to them, but they consider that the debtor is in the property and refusing to engage, which can be established by something as simple as posting a letter with contact details and a request to contact them/their office. The wording used can be widely interpreted and it is likely that it would be widely interpreted by a court, as it is in the public interest to allow bailiffs this power so that court fines can be collected when imposed.

If Bailiffs were truly powerless should a person refuse to speak to them, then nobody would speak to them and no court fines would be paid. In fact this power exists simply because people have tried to go down the route of not talking to the bailiff before and this became the courts response.

Not speaking to them is not very good advice, in fact it's the sort of advice that gets people into some of the holes that lead them to GOODF. The best option is to be sensible when the bailiffs are at your door, with a warrant, and make a realistic and affordable offer of payment, the risk of not talking to them is not that they won't go away but that they will come back with better powers and be harder to deal with the next time.

[FatGambit]

As I said previously, you are blurring the differences between warrants issued by a Magistrates Court and a County Court, it would be easier if you clarified what system you are discussing when claiming someone can force entry, because it seems you are taking about magistrates who can force entry, and others county, who cannot force entry unless they've already gained peaceful entry previously (or the property/debt is commercial).

[fat frank]

I don't agree with dealing with bailiffs, its best to not let it get to that point,

but that is court fine bailiffs, as its funny how the gov only make sure it gets its money, normal ccj just get returned

[FatGambit]

Best not to get a magistrates fine in the first place really, saves all the hassle with bailiffs.

[Bungle]

Best not to get a magistrates fine in the first place really, saves all the hassle with bailiffs.

And the best way to 'bailiff proof' a car is to pay the debt in the first place.

[fat frank]

Best not to get a magistrates fine in the first place really, saves all the hassle with bailiffs.

And the best way to 'bailiff proof' a car is to pay the debt in the first place.

but then the freemans couldn't quote the courts are fake crap, they are giving the bailiffs the chance to earn money, its like they are working for them

[Bungle]

I don't agree with dealing with bailiffs, its best to not let it get to that point,

There another Facebook page that looks to be owned by a website called Dealing with Bailiffs. No surprise really that it is linked to our good friend Jay Bradley (link on left hand side of page under About us)

https://www.facebook.com/The-Bailiff-Bi ... 129545032/

The man himself is listed as 'admin' in this forum. He introduces himself well:

Hi everyone some of you will know me, some of you will know my entire private life so may not but hey lets get on with the job in hand and thats bringing down the establishment

http://www.bailiffwatch.info/forum/

[Greengrass]

I don't agree with dealing with bailiffs, its best to not let it get to that point,

I wonder if you have been visiting the Dealing with Bailiffs or Bailiff Help Forum websites. Probably have the most disinformation and rubbish advice on the internet. They are even run by a person who terms himself in his signature as a Guru and strangely enough a lot of his stuff appears on FMoTL sites. In reality he is no better than a common conman who suggests posters ring him - at £35 a pop - then charges monoply money figures for draft documents and such like.

Not a clue where you get the idea CAG is run by those employed by Bailiff Co's. The owner of the site does sit on a Focus Group run by Marstons but has no say in how Bailiffs operate, same as Marstons have no say in how this small part of the CAG site is run.

Better you should ask about how much they have cost some posters - one has had a charging order placed on his house because he followed the duff advice given. After a quick add up they have cost posters approx £50k with his pipe dreams. Granted there is the odd "win" on there but more down to good luck than following the advice given. There is a small band there who all follow the "Leader" including one who has known anger issues and now posts on GOODF as "Starving Mark".