Claire Knowles jailed

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letissier14
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Claire Knowles jailed

Post by letissier14 »

WRONGFUL IMPRISONMENT OF CLAIRE KNOWLES AN AFFRONT TO SOCIETY IN IRELAND

The newly-formed Tomás MacCurtain Society in Cork released the following statement last night regarding the imprisonment of Claire Knowles (pictured), a member of the Society who was sent to Limerick prison yesterday evening for failing to hand up her family home two weeks before Christmas.

http://1916societies.com/2015/12/09/imp ... e-knowles/
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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by Pox »

Thanks for this.

Not heard of her before.

Looks like this part of Ireland takes a more stringent approach than other parts of the UK.
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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by NYGman »

Today, just two weeks before Christmas, a law-abiding mother, daughter, sister, grandmother and friend to many, one Claire Knowles, was committed to prison by Judge Sean O’Donnabhain in Cork Circuit Court. Her crime seems to be that she was in ‘flagrant breach of a Court Order’ and it seems she was also guilty of being ‘brazen’, even though to observers she tried to defend herself in a most calm, polite and assured way.
Come on, let's be consistent. You can't be law abiding i you flagrantly breach a court order.
There is a concept in law known as a ‘Void Order’. It is recognised in Common Law jurisdictions. At its most basic it means there is no Order of a Court if the Court is found to have acted outside its jurisdiction in the Granting of the said Order. Claire has gained much rock solid evidence that an Order, as handed down by the Circuit Court in Cork that granted possession to ICS Building Society of her family home on 20th January 2014, is a Void Order on multiple provable grounds.
What evidence, show it to us? I am guessing it is mostly Freeman Woo consisting of challenges to seals or wet ink claims. Point is, if the evidence is that Rock Solid, show it to us. And if you had this evidence, why was it never brought up before? If it was, and the court ruled against her, I would say it isn't that rock solid.
Indeed Claire was in the High Court just yesterday, 7th December, and won the right to have an appeal heard of this Circuit Court Order sometime in the New Year, with the view to getting it officially declared Void. Claire it seems was ‘brazen’ for even mentioning this information today to Judge O’Donnabhain. He completely ignored the fact that she has an appeal yet to be heard in the High Court and informed her that the High Court did not have jurisdiction while he in fact did.

doesn't go in to what grounds for appeal, or even what issue is being appealed. May have no relation to anything. Will also point out, while they may have won the right to have an appeal heard, it doesn't mean the appeal will succeed. It certainly does not mean that the court agrees with you that there is a Void Order. That is a big leap of faith.
Claire was evicted on the 22nd September of this year from her home. She was encircled and intimidatingly frog-marched out by many Security men who acted under the instructions of Cork County Sheriff Sinead McNamara. Claire re-occupied her home thereafter. It seems this act of occupying her home is what the Bank has now used to successfully get Claire sent to prison, even though the Order used by them to gain Possession – and now imprisonment – was and remains void.
So she was lawfully evicted in a way they do not like, tough beans.She just has her belief that she is entitled to stay, but no court has backed that up. Further, even they admitted she has only won leave to appeal. No court has declared the judgement void.

So as the order is still valid, and she violated it, by taking back her house, she was rightly imprisoned, nothing wrong with that.

This whole thing is absurd. I do not know the issue, but it probably has to do with non-payment of a loan. If someone thinks a loan is invalid, the last thing you do id stop payment. You go to court, and get it ruled invalid, then sue to collect any excess value collected. You do no arbitrarily stop paying. Alternately, you may be able to institute a law suit, and place money in to escrow. Point is, there are legal options that can protect you, and a proper order to do things in the law. Just because you don't like those rules, doesn't mean they do not apply.
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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by NYGman »

Forsyth wrote:A little bit more here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-an ... -1.2460457
Still not enough information, I have the feeling the Wooo is strong in this one. She would have been best served getting legal assistance, but I have the feeling she may have gone down that avenue, and failed because she had no case. In which case, the Woo became her friend.

Again, this is my best guess, but based on the links here, that is my impression.
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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by Pox »

NYGman wrote:
Forsyth wrote:A little bit more here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-an ... -1.2460457
Still not enough information, I have the feeling the Wooo is strong in this one. She would have been best served getting legal assistance, but I have the feeling she may have gone down that avenue, and failed because she had no case. In which case, the Woo became her friend.

Again, this is my best guess, but based on the links here, that is my impression.
I agree - I expect that she didn't like the legal advice she probably received and is now clutching at straws.

What amuses me is the references to being called brazen as if it is a huge insult - the way they are reacting, anyone would think that she was being called a paedophile!

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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by notorial dissent »

Two of the magic phrases in freeman/sovcit woo are void order and challenge jurisdiction.

The problem they don't seem to recognize, is that when they challenge the jurisdiction of the court things don't magically grind to a halt, but instead, the judge just goes "NO, according to such and such statute, I have jurisdiction to hear this and act, move along", and away the challenge goes. The same with the void order nonsense, it may well be a void order, but I wouldn't go betting the farm ad many of these fools have, since it takes another, higher, court saying it is void for it to be void, and that isn't likely to happen. Judges are generally pretty careful about staying within their authority, particularly on routine matters. They just can't go chanting void order void order and it will all go away. It doesn't. Hope she enjoys her Christmas in jail.
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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by Hyrion »

notorial dissent wrote:The problem they don't seem to recognize, is that when they challenge the jurisdiction of the court things don't magically grind to a halt, but instead, the judge just goes "NO, according to such and such statute, I have jurisdiction to hear this and act, move along"
And to compound the problem - instead of moving on and speaking to actual points of the case and the Law they stay adamantly, blindly focused on the Jurisdictional challenge.

At least - from the transcripts I've read - that seems to be a consistent behavioral issue they all seem to share.

One can almost speculate that the bulk of those who push this through the courts - like Crawford - are affected by undiagnosed OCD. They do seem to end up obsessed if they didn't start out that way.
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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by notorial dissent »

As an afterthought, I wouldn't even bet on the appeal being anything to do with what was going on here. That seems to be a constant with this crowd as well.
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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by Hercule Parrot »

So, possession was granted to the creditors in Jan 2014 but she resisted eviction until Sep 2015. She was then removed, ceased to have any property rights towards the house. But nonetheless she broke in and unlawfully re-occupied it.

And on 7th Dec the court said "either you agree to move out of their house, or you're in contempt". Which is awfully generous, as I imagine the lawful owners of the property would've been entitled to remove her by reasonable force at any time.

And Mrs Knowles replied "blah blah feck off judge, your void order doesn't exist" and "I have an appeal against something which will take place next year and I'm defying your order until then, probably longer if that hearing goes against me....". So the judge sighed and jailed her, during which time presumably the actual owners of the house will be re-securing it.

Sorry, I don't feel sympathy welling here. It is said that Mrs Knowles has vigorously defended this possession in the circuit court and high court, so it seems unlikely that there's a new reason for appeal. Seems to be another "I want to disown the mortgage but keep the house" situation.

If she had moved out under protest, stayed with friends over Christmas and then won a famous victory to recover ownership of the house that used to be hers, I would be applauding wildly.
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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by AndyPandy »

She's out on bail as long as she doesn't go within 100 yards of her former home


https://www.facebook.com/groups/7982696 ... cation=ufi

A Cork woman who was jailed yesterday over failure to comply with a court order for possession of her home has been released on bail pending a High Court challenge to the legality of her detention.

A large group of supporters gathered outside the High Court in Dublin as 56-year-old Claire Knowles from Glanmire was brought from Limerick Prison for the hearing.

As a condition of her bail Ms Knowles is not allowed to go within 100 yards of her home.

She told the court that all her possessions were in her home and she would be effectively homeless because of the conditions of bail.

However she agreed to abide by the bail conditions until her case returns to the High Court next Monday.

The legal challenge brought under Article 40 of the Constitution had been taken by a representative from the organisation Direct Democracy Ireland on her behalf.

Ben Gilroy of Direct Democracy Ireland told the court he wanted to represent Ms Knowles as she was traumatised after her imprisonment.

However Mr Justice Richard Humphries ruled that while Mr Gilroy could assist in the case he could not speak in court on behalf of Ms Knowles.

He said she would either have to speak on her own behalf or get legal representation.

The court heard that Ms Knowles was imprisoned yesterday for failure to comply with an order for possession of her home which was made in January 2014.

In a sworn statement applying for a hearing on the legality of her detention, Mr Gilroy had alleged that the warrant detaining Ms Knowles was invalid and that she had not been allowed fair procedures in the Circuit Court after she had tried to read from a prepared statement.

The court heard the original plaintiff in the case was ICS building society but this had been substituted with Bank Of Ireland.

Counsel for the State Remy Farrell said the Governor of Limerick Prison was not the appropriate adverse party in the case and could not be expected to argue the facts of the original case on behalf of the bank or any other party.

He said the Article 40 procedure was an exceptional process and the arm of the State should not be forced by way of proxy litigation to defend proceedings to which it was never a party.

He said the court should not hear "proxy litigation" which amounted to a challenge to civil proceedings in another court.

On its face the detention was perfectly lawful, he said.

Mr Justice Humphries disagreed and said it was the obligation of the State to justify the legality of the detention.

There was an obligation to go behind the order of the Circuit Court and justify the legality of the detention, the judge said.

To do this the State would need an opportunity to equip itself with the full facts.

He made an order directing that a transcript of the proceedings from Cork Circuit Court be produced before a hearing next week.

The State may also call evidence from the bank.

In the meantine Ms Knowles was released on bail after telling the judge: "I’m requesting bail as a citizen of the State, a non criminal and as a mother and a grandmother."

Lawyers for the State said they had no objection to bail on condition that she enter a bond not to go within 100 yards of her home at The Pines, Castlejane Woods in Glanmire.

Ms Knowles said she could not understand why the State would make the condition relating to her family home as it was not acting on behalf of the bank.

She said she had also just found out there had been a trespass on her home since her detention.

She said she had no clothes and all her possessions were in the house and she would be effectively of no fixed abode if she had to stay away from her home.

However, she said she would agree to the conditions of bail until the case is heard in full next Monday.

Ms Knowles was met by applause on her release by supporters who included Independent TD Mattie McGrath.
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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by rumpelstilzchen »

She told the court that all her possessions were in her home and she would be effectively homeless because of the conditions of bail.
She should have stayed in prison. At least she would have had a roof over her head.
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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by Chaos »

rumpelstilzchen wrote:
She told the court that all her possessions were in her home and she would be effectively homeless because of the conditions of bail.
She should have stayed in prison. At least she would have had a roof over her head.
seeing she's 'effectively homeless' since Jan 2014, I'm failing to see the problem.
and why don't these turds that want to play the 'cancer survivor'. 'mother', 'grandmother' card thinking about that before they commit crimes?
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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by grixit »

Can't she stay with one of her supporters?
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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by Hercule Parrot »

Facebook wrote:Lawyers for the State said they had no objection to bail on condition that she enter a bond not to go within 100 yards of her home at The Pines, Castlejane Woods in Glanmire.

Ms Knowles said she could not understand why the State would make the condition relating to her family home as it was not acting on behalf of the bank.

She said she had also just found out there had been a trespass on her home since her detention.

She said she had no clothes and all her possessions were in the house and she would be effectively of no fixed abode if she had to stay away from her home.
Ms Knowles suffers from Crawforditis, a debilitating condition which prevents the patient from grasping that a house no longer belongs to them.
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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by Rakked »

On the "void order" issue, in America, violating a judge's order can be criminal contempt regardless of whether the order was correct/valid or not. The crime is less in the specific act than in the flouting of judicial authority, which is a wrong in and of itself. I suspect it works the same in the UK.

Surprisingly ( :sarcasmon: ), sovereign types once more fabricate and then misinterpret law.
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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by longdog »

Rakked wrote:I suspect it works the same in the UK.
Well this case is in The Irish Republic rather than the UK but I suspect it would apply there as much as in the UK as the legal systems are very similar. Certainly in the UK the fact that you are appealing against a court order is not a valid excuse for breaching it.
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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by AndyPandy »

longdog wrote:
Rakked wrote:I suspect it works the same in the UK.
Well this case is in The Irish Republic rather than the UK but I suspect it would apply there as much as in the UK as the legal systems are very similar. Certainly in the UK the fact that you are appealing against a court order is not a valid excuse for breaching it.
An order stands unless it's successfully appealed against or set aside, believe that's the same in the RoI
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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by noblepa »

AndyPandy wrote:
longdog wrote:
Rakked wrote:I suspect it works the same in the UK.
Well this case is in The Irish Republic rather than the UK but I suspect it would apply there as much as in the UK as the legal systems are very similar. Certainly in the UK the fact that you are appealing against a court order is not a valid excuse for breaching it.
An order stands unless it's successfully appealed against or set aside, believe that's the same in the RoI
In the US, I believe that, when an appellant files a notice of appeal with the trial court, he/she can ask for a stay of the order being appealed. The judge may or may not grant the stay. If the stay is granted, then the appellant need not abide by it. If the stay is denied, then the order must be obeyed, even while the appeal process is going on.

As far as I know, such a stay is not automatic. The appellant must specifically request it and the judge may deny the stay, if there is little/no chance that the appeal will be successful.

Is there not a similar procedure in the UK and Ireland?

Did she forget to ask? Did the trial judge deny the stay?
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Re: Claire Knowles jailed

Post by Chaos »

they believe 'stay' means stay in the house. lol