The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by PeanutGallery »

As far as I understand it, County Court Enforcement Officers have a right to use reasonable force to enter and secure a property when the tenant is being evicted, provided notification of the time and date has been given to the tenant. In practice if their is any difficulty they will involve the police and things will start to go down the breach of the peace route, depending on the officers aptitude and attitude, it also depends on whether the officer individually thinks things might get out of hand if they try this route.

In regard to breaching the peace, this is also a reasonably confused piece of law, as the peace is not the general peace it's not the public peace, it's the Queens peace. The entire area around breach of the peace is pretty poorly defined in law, the leading case is R v Howell (1982). The reasoning given in that case was:

Code: Select all

(1) that a constable or a private citizen had a power of arrest without warrant where a breach of the peace was
committed in the presence of the person making the arrest; where there was a threat of a breach of the peace being renewed; and where, although no breach had been committed, the person making the arrest reasonably and honestly believed that such a breach would be committed in the immediate future (post, pp. 507H -- 508A, C). 

(2) That the behaviour that caused a constable to believe that a breach of the peace had or would occur had to be related to violence and such a breach occurred whenever harm was actually done or was likely to be done to a person, or in his presence to his property, or a person was put in fear of being so harmed through an assault, affray, riot, unlawful assembly or other disturbance (post, p. 509B-C). 

(3) That where an arrest was made for an anticipated breach of the peace it was sufficient that the constable stated that it was for "a breach of the peace" and, since the defendant either knew why he was being arrested or had prevented the constable from telling him the reason for the arrest, the arrest was valid (post, p. 509D-G); and since the recorder had correctly stated the ingredients of the offence of a breach of the peace in his ruling on the submission of no case and in his directions to the jury, it could not be said that the verdict of the jury was unsafe or unsatisfactory and the conviction for assaulting a police officer stood
The police, being rather shrewd and aware that all they need is to have a 'reasonably and honestly' held belief that a breach of the peace would happen, even if their has actually been no breach, can use this to remove from the area someone who they think is a troublemaker. The police having arrested someone for a breach of the police, simply need to detain them for as long as is required to ensure things don't go south, then they can just de-arrest or release them without charge.

This means that the case law isn't going to be updated or challenged, the police don't want this, because it's rather helpful to them and getting more case law would only confuse the issue. They can argue against any lawsuits for false arrest on public policy grounds, as well as the fact that they simply need a statement from the arresting officer that they 'reasonably and honestly' believed a breach would happen, finally if a person is released without charge they wouldn't have suffered any significant damages and even if successful (which would be unlikely) would likely only attract nominal damages.

As for the change of hands of the Crawfords property, let's bear in mind that £93k bought the property AFTER the police had caved the roof in and had further dilapidated the bungalow because of the Rooftop Six. I still maintain that if Tom hadn't been led by the nose through all of these protests and in so doing had not destroyed his equity in the property, he would have been able to sell the place for a fair bit more (115 - 125k) and likely would have been able to pick up a good retirement property. Plus Betty wouldn't have gone missing. Of course pointing this out is much like when Jim Bowen used to tell those dart throwing folks to have a look at what they could have won. You could have had a nice life Tom. You'd worked hard for it, you deserved it, but you ruined it.
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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by FatGambit »

Yeah about as clear as mud (the first bit about what type of enforcement can be used depending on the situation, it's no surprise coppers just assume the cceo can break the door in, not the last paragraph which is as clear as glass to understand...)
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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by Pox »

FatGambit wrote:Yeah about as clear as mud (the first bit about what type of enforcement can be used depending on the situation, it's no surprise coppers just assume the cceo can break the door in, not the last paragraph which is as clear as glass to understand...)
This comment and your one just before this one suggests to me that you can cite some examples of where the 'rules ' have been breached.
Off topic I know, but could you expand? By PM if you wish.
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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by midjit-gems »

I've been told of times police have shown "warrants" to police officers to say they can enforce entry for a council tax debt. Which is nonsense, no such warrant exists. Bailiffs are seriously bad news generally but it's their job to make people pay up.

Trouble is the likes of these gurus are feeding them and keeping them very much in business.

Maybe that's what colon meant when he said they'd changed the world
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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by PeanutGallery »

Usually when a bailiff needs to show a warrant to the police, the police don't actually need to look at a paper document. That could be made up by anyone pretending to be a bailiff (and people have fallen for this sort of scam before, in fact I can recall a case where a prisoner arranged his release by forging emails granting him parole). It's much more sensible to get some pertinent information (such as which court, the date, reference numbers etc) and to have a member of staff in the control room confirm that the warrant was issued with that court.

All the police need to do is be reasonably satisfied that the warrant exists and is live. They can get that from the court through a telephone conversation. Doing that also renders the argument that anyone could write a piece of paper moot, yes anyone could, but only the court that it claims to have been written by can say if they were the ones to write it.

As for bailiffs I think they are a necessary evil. They have a job to do, which is largely unpleasant, but if they didn't do it society would suffer.
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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by midjit-gems »

I agree with you peanut, the problem being police just take the word of a bailiff, they assume the bailiff has the right to do what they are doing without knowing the exact nature and details. More training is needed so the police can't be "damned if they do and damned if they dont" so to speak.

Bailiffs are needed for those who refuse to pay but they should still remain inside the law and should still be have with the confines of their own industry regulations.

With the gurus leading more and more up the "don't pay it's all fraud, it's all fake, council tax only funds terrorists" route they are feeding the industry they claim to be fighting against.

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it, they are better than any government shill in that respect
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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by PeanutGallery »

It's also likely that they will 'bend' some rules to help a bailiff because of the pressures the police are under. If they took too much time dealing with something that 'should' be rather simple, it's a drain on police resources. There is also the tendency of authority groups to back each other up (the Police are more likely to take the word of the bailiff than the debtor, because in their view the debtor has to be of bad character because they have bailiffs at their door).

Finally I believe you are very correct in that the guru's who promote talking a load of nonsense actually do more harm than good and likely get people convicted, fined or evicted when they really shouldn't have been. They exhaust the appeals available with frivolous claims and often will be blind to valid grounds of challenge. It is a huge problem, because they are invariably a more attractive and available option than solicitors or the CAB as they will tell a debtor what they want to hear rather than be ethically bound to tell them what they need to hear.
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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by midjit-gems »

Talking of dodgy gurus, just to confirm the point, beat the banks and the new splinter group have managed to give some excellent advice to a lady whom was having her car taken by bailiffs. Thanks to their advice she ended up in court and convicted of stopping a high court enforcement officer trying to do his job.
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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by NYGman »

midjit-gems wrote:Talking of dodgy gurus, just to confirm the point, beat the banks and the new splinter group have managed to give some excellent advice to a lady whom was having her car taken by bailiffs. Thanks to their advice she ended up in court and convicted of stopping a high court enforcement officer trying to do his job.
Sounds like they helped her out. Is there a link to read more?
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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by midjit-gems »

Strangely enough the post was deleted as far as I'm aware but if I find it or similar I'll pop it up
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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by Bones »

Who is Andy Pair ?

He posting on facebook that Tom is getting his house back, because his mate was talking notes at the trial and that is what the judge.

James Bradley, grow a pair and post on here what was really said and engage in the debate that you personally requested.

Are you chicken ?
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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by Bones »

Someone managed to hit every single branch of the idiot tree

Image

Image

Image

Whoever this guy is, he is clearly deluded and may very well have serious mental health issues
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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by midjit-gems »

Oh Andy Pears !!!!!!


He is the topless guy who was arrested for racist chanting the day of the eviction.

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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by Bungle »

midjit-gems wrote:Talking of dodgy gurus, just to confirm the point, beat the banks and the new splinter group have managed to give some excellent advice to a lady whom was having her car taken by bailiffs. Thanks to their advice she ended up in court and convicted of stopping a high court enforcement officer trying to do his job.
Is she the one who was found guilty last week of obstructing a high court officer and has been told by the Judge to expect a prison sentence of up to 51 weeks when she returns to court for sentencing on 18th Feb?
TUCO said to me:
“I envy you for the job that you do in helping advise people. If I could choose an occupation, this is what I would like to do. Much of the advice that I pass onto people is heavily influenced by your posts”.
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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by midjit-gems »

Bungle wrote:
midjit-gems wrote:Talking of dodgy gurus, just to confirm the point, beat the banks and the new splinter group have managed to give some excellent advice to a lady whom was having her car taken by bailiffs. Thanks to their advice she ended up in court and convicted of stopping a high court enforcement officer trying to do his job.
Is she the one who was found guilty last week of obstructing a high court officer and has been told by the Judge to expect a prison sentence of up to 51 weeks when she returns to court for sentencing on 18th Feb?
I believe so yes
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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by Hercule Parrot »

midjit-gems wrote:
Bungle wrote:
midjit-gems wrote:Talking of dodgy gurus, just to confirm the point, beat the banks and the new splinter group have managed to give some excellent advice to a lady whom was having her car taken by bailiffs. Thanks to their advice she ended up in court and convicted of stopping a high court enforcement officer trying to do his job.
Is she the one who was found guilty last week of obstructing a high court officer and has been told by the Judge to expect a prison sentence of up to 51 weeks when she returns to court for sentencing on 18th Feb?
I believe so yes
Would be really helpful to have a link for stories like this. Don't tease us... :violin:
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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by Bungle »

midjit-gems wrote:
Bungle wrote:
midjit-gems wrote:Talking of dodgy gurus, just to confirm the point, beat the banks and the new splinter group have managed to give some excellent advice to a lady whom was having her car taken by bailiffs. Thanks to their advice she ended up in court and convicted of stopping a high court enforcement officer trying to do his job.
Is she the one who was found guilty last week of obstructing a high court officer and has been told by the Judge to expect a prison sentence of up to 51 weeks when she returns to court for sentencing on 18th Feb?
I believe so yes
Might it be anything to do with the person being discussed on here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/fo ... wing)-nbsp
TUCO said to me:
“I envy you for the job that you do in helping advise people. If I could choose an occupation, this is what I would like to do. Much of the advice that I pass onto people is heavily influenced by your posts”.
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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by mac »

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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by Bungle »

You only get one opportunity to make a first impression. This bunch of thugs have blown it.
TUCO said to me:
“I envy you for the job that you do in helping advise people. If I could choose an occupation, this is what I would like to do. Much of the advice that I pass onto people is heavily influenced by your posts”.
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Re: The Rooftop 6 - The Trial of the Century!

Post by Bungle »

Bones wrote:
James Bradley, grow a pair and post on here what was really said and engage in the debate that you personally requested.

Are you chicken ?
He posted yesterday on the offshoot BTBATB site that he was taking the family to Disneyland, Paris. Presumably his HMCTS compo cheque has come in useful.
TUCO said to me:
“I envy you for the job that you do in helping advise people. If I could choose an occupation, this is what I would like to do. Much of the advice that I pass onto people is heavily influenced by your posts”.