I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

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Chaos
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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby Chaos » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:46 pm

Gregg wrote:Roman Novak was also the name associated with Profitable Sunrise


That's the one. I am wrong.

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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby notorial dissent » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:00 am

One of the thing the UK, Man, Guernsey, and much of Europe used to be, and may well still be notorious for were/and maybe still the corporation laws that allowed what were effectively blind corporations to be set up with wholly nominee directors to disguise and hide who actually owned/ran a company, many/most of which were shell companies used to hid other activities. The UK was particularly known for this, and last I heard it is still an ongoing business enterprise, although I gather the former Caribbean dominions are seriously cutting in to the money pot these days.

The thing I find hard to believe is someone willing to rent out their name for next to nothing for what could well be a type of identity theft.
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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby TheNewSaint » Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:37 pm

My question would be: how much are participants told about how, and why, their name will be used?

There seem to be legit reasons for temporary placeholder directors. But I would think any organization employing them would be very up-front with its hires about what exactly they're signing up for, and the purpose of it all.

From jellybean's posts, it seems that this outfit isn't divulging any such details. That's enough to make me think that whatever they're doing, you don't want to be involved in it for 75 pounds.

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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby Chaos » Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:33 am

it sounds similar to the merchandise mules scam where items are purchased with stolen credit card details and laundered through unsuspecting marks via shipping the items around. This way the marks get jammed and not the real criminals.

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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby notorial dissent » Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:03 am

TheNewSaint wrote:My question would be: how much are participants told about how, and why, their name will be used? I would expect nothing, just based on the nature of this scam.

There seem to be legit reasons for temporary placeholder directors. But I would think any organization employing them would be very up-front with its hires about what exactly they're signing up for, and the purpose of it all. I'm curious as to why you'd think this, when the purpose of hiring them in the first place is obfuscation?

From jellybean's posts, it seems that this outfit isn't divulging any such details. That's enough to make me think that whatever they're doing, you don't want to be involved in it for 75 pounds. Ding ding ding we have a winner.


If you are wanting to form an anonymous company with nominee directors, there are companies that will do that for a fee, and they have a slate of directors they put up for the company to get off the ground, and then if you continue using them you get to pay a fee for it, like everything else. However, the legit companies that do this draw the line at someone trying to do something dodgy with their nominees and so won't play ball, thus this kind of cattle call. Basically this is not a good idea.
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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby TheNewSaint » Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:10 am

notorial dissent wrote:
TheNewSaint wrote:There seem to be legit reasons for temporary placeholder directors. But I would think any organization employing them would be very up-front with its hires about what exactly they're signing up for, and the purpose of it all. I'm curious as to why you'd think this, when the purpose of hiring them in the first place is obfuscation?


I meant they would tell you why you're standing in, not who you're standing in for. Or have some kind of regulatory mechanism to prove they're not up to anything nefarious.

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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby notorial dissent » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:46 am

TheNewSaint wrote:
notorial dissent wrote:
TheNewSaint wrote:There seem to be legit reasons for temporary placeholder directors. But I would think any organization employing them would be very up-front with its hires about what exactly they're signing up for, and the purpose of it all. I'm curious as to why you'd think this, when the purpose of hiring them in the first place is obfuscation?


I meant they would tell you why you're standing in, not who you're standing in for. Or have some kind of regulatory mechanism to prove they're not up to anything nefarious.

Why?? The idea of anonymous is to stay anonymous. You are being logical about something that is basically a a scam.
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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby TheNewSaint » Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:10 pm

notorial dissent wrote:
TheNewSaint wrote:
notorial dissent wrote:


I meant they would tell you why you're standing in, not who you're standing in for. Or have some kind of regulatory mechanism to prove they're not up to anything nefarious.

Why?? The idea of anonymous is to stay anonymous. You are being logical about something that is basically a a scam.


I see what you mean. I was thinking of cases like NYGMan mentioned where temporary directors are needed to fulfill a need for someone local, as in Singapore. But that's a scam too, when you come right down to it, since they are lying about who really operates the company.

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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby notorial dissent » Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:31 pm

Which isn't to say it isn't done all the time. I know here where I live that there is a firm of lawyers who do nothing but essentially front for companies, for a fee, they will set it up, or perhaps pull it off the shelf as a firm in Wyoming was infamous for, do all the paperwork and registration, and be the initial officers and directors, and continue to do so I suspect, again for a (hefty)fee. Did I mention this firm isn't exactly cheap? Since corporate registration is largely a joke in many jurisdictions these days, I almost don't see the point.
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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby SteveUK » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:11 am

It seems that consett is the home of this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-38097382
Is it SteveUK or STEVE: of UK?????

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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby littleFred » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:42 am

Using unconnected individuals as directors prevented "cross contamination" if credit card companies withdrew services from one company, he said.

Ah, that explains what I've been wondering: where is the benefit in using random strangers as directors? One answer is: when a company gets bad credit marks (or just keels over), this doesn't affect other companies. It might land the directors with bad credit ratings, but I don't suppose Mr Dowson cares.

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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby notorial dissent » Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:43 am

Depending on the laws and type of company, the directors COULD possibly be held liable for the debts of the company, worse, they could be held legally liable for bad acts of the company, and even if they figure out that they were just chumps it could take time and money on the chumps part to untangle the mess they got themselves in to. It could get right messy, not to mention expensive.
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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby Footloose52 » Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:26 pm

Here's your answer:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-38097382

Sell a shell company for £2,500 to £3,000 and pay a punter £50 to act as a shadow director and another £150 to forward post for a year ......

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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby djdandew15 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:35 pm

Anybody got any updates are further info on this. I have a few friends that have been stupid and got involved. This is what i have come to with my reserch.

Ok after further research and speaking to a accountant and solicitor this is now my understanding of how everything works.

kedros formations are classing themselves as Company formation agents and are paying people £75 to become Nominee Director's

Company formation agents are quite common practice and offer help and support to new business startups from admin duties to bank accounts and business address.

Howether most but not all formation agents steer clear from offering a Nominee Director service as it is to much of a high risk for both Nominee Director and Real company owner.
Becoming a Nominee Director is not illegal Howether is classed as a grey area as it is open to abuse from scammers, tax invaders and money laundering

Nominee Director services are something that used to be quite common as before electronic recording setting up a company could take weeks if not months but nowadays is not as necessary

Also note UK Law does not recognize the position of Nominee Director. The person who's name was used to set up the company at companies house is the Director and holds full Director responsibility for that company within the UK

These days Nominee Director's are often used to hide the real identity of the person in charge and they are classed as a shadow director, again this is not illegal but high risk as the shadow director is often someone outside of the UK.

UK law and companies house do not recognize the position of shadow director and the shadow director would have a hard job to prove he is actually is the real company owner, which is where this becomes complicated as it is the director that is listed on companies house that holds sole responsibility in making sure his UK company is being run legally and that all relevant documentation like accounts and tax returns are submitted on time, even if that person resigns as the director they can still be held legally liable for the company and accounts.

This is the service that I belive kedros formations.are providing and anyone that signs up as a director with them can be held accountable for the action from a shadow director.

Also worth noting that HMRC have a list of authorized Company formation agents That have passed HMRC checks and you will notice that kedros formations are not on the list

I belive that people should be very Wary about kedros formations and it is not something that should be seen as easy money without understanding all the implications and risks that this could have.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/formation-and-company-secretarial-agents/company-formation-agents-and-secretarial-agents

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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby JimUk1 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:13 pm

Shadow director?

I run my own limited company and my partner acts as share holder (and secretary) without taking a wage for
Company filing only.

This is a blatant scam for people who are barred from running their own limited company and getting the tax benefits.

If your friends are going along with this you would do best to point them to the rules of running a Ltd.

Directors are solely responsible for the filing of the accuracy of information.

My advice- give a wide berth

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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby JimUk1 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:37 pm

Never let anyone open up a Ltd and "nominate" you or anyone else as a director.

Annual reporting is a nightmare and is almost certain they want the barred individuals as share holders who give you a nominal fee.


Cut all ties immediately is my advice!

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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby TheNewSaint » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:57 pm

Welcome aboard, djdandew15.

To be honest, I think you've already provided the best information that will be available about this scam. (Unless a Kedros nominee agent tells their personal story, or such a tale surfaces in the media.) Your solicitor explains that:

  • There is little to no legitimate need for nominee directors;
  • Anyone agreeing to be a nominee director could be held responsible for whatever the company does;
  • The law offers no protections for nominee directors;
  • The situation lends itself to abuse from scammers, tax evaders and money launderers;
  • Kedros Formations is not registered with the relevant government body.

That alone is plenty of reasons to steer clear. Anyone entangled in such a scheme should probably seek a solicitor's help.

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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby notorial dissent » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:34 am

A lot of this will depend on the jurisdiction you are in and the local laws, but generally, a director of a company is liable for the actions of that company, unless they can show they had no knowledge of it, and often even then, as they are considered to have a duty to know what the company is doing. That is what can hang you quicker than anything.
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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby noblepa » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:05 am

notorial dissent wrote:A lot of this will depend on the jurisdiction you are in and the local laws, but generally, a director of a company is liable for the actions of that company, unless they can show they had no knowledge of it, and often even then, as they are considered to have a duty to know what the company is doing. That is what can hang you quicker than anything.



This sounds like something that the Dodd-Frank Act in the US was designed to prevent. In the 1980's and 90's, there were a rash of large corporate bankruptcies, culminating in the Enron crash. In these case, the company managers claimed that, even though they had signed the financial statements and Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) filings, they were unaware of the illegal activities being done by their assistants.

The Dodd-Frank Act required them, when signing such statements, to include a statement that they had carefully examined the statements and were personally taking responsibility for their accuracy. In short the Act required that they be aware of such activities and eliminated the "I didn't know" defense. Not knowing, in and of itself, became an offense.

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Re: I know its a scam, but what exactly is the scam?

Postby notorial dissent » Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:29 am

Not the same thing. When I say director, I mean like as in Board of. The problem is, that with a lot of that sort of thing unless you actually have the base material the reports were created from, and are an accountant you have no way of knowing whether the reports are valid or not. There are some officers and managers who have no excuse for not knowing, but otherwise, you pretty much have to take it on faith that they are true and correct. Directors, and particularly outside directors, which is what the nominees would be considered don't have the day to day access and generally the knowledge of what is happening, but that still doesn't relieve them of responsibility, which is one of the reasons it is not a good position to be in.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.


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