"practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby rosy » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:57 pm

The threshold for enforcement is 10% + 2 as aesmith says. So enforcement starts at 24 in a 20, 35 in a 30, 46 in a 40, 57 in a 50, 68 in a 60 and 79 in a 70. But 31 in a 30 is still speeding and could be prosecuted, it just never is.

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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby aesmith » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:19 pm

JimUk1 wrote:As far as I am aware, it's only 10%, and that is at the discretion of he police. I've nevered heard of 10% plus and additional limit.

Page 8 .. https://www.cambs.police.uk/roadsafety/ ... -roads.pdf
Also http://www.ukmotorists.com/speed%20enfo ... forces.asp
Also from the CPS who state the algorithm rather than just listing applicable thresholds for each limit ..
Speed Enforcement
The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) issued revised speed enforcement policy guidance in 2013. It suggests that enforcement will normally occur when a driver exceeds the speed limit by a particular margin. The particular margin is normally 10 per cent over the speed limit plus 2 mph. The guidance sets guidelines for when it would be appropriate to issue a fixed penalty notice or for the driver to attend a speed awareness course, and when it becomes appropriate to issue a summons. These are guidelines only and a police officer has discretion to act outside of them providing he acts fairly, consistently and proportionately.

Any yes, guidelines only and at the discretion of the Police. However although there are occasional reports of people being prosecuted for 33 or 34 mph, I've never seen an actual document supporting this, they all seem to be hearsay so could be misremembered, or turn out to be something like 33mph in a 20 limit.

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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby notorial dissent » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:24 pm

I would suspect that as a general rule they probably assume there is a little slop in the speedometers and give people the benefit of the doubt for 2-3 mph over the limit, however, 7 is stretching it a bit too much. I also expect that in some places it is strictly enforced. The fact remains that this particular dim bulb WAS SPEEDING, and he got caught. If he was in honour, he would have admitted the error and paid the ticket, instead he quibbles and whines and doesn't.
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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby NYGman » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:29 pm

My understanding is that most cars today underestimate the speed by a few MPH. Especially if a German car, which requires the speedometer not to be reflecting a speed slower than indicated, and due to change in accuracy from tire wear, they have been reflecting slower speeds for a while. So if anything, the speed they were done for, is likely a few MPH below the actual speed they thought they were doing, The exception would be older cars, which may have less reliable equipment, or is riding on the wrong sized tires. Modern cars are slow, or at best bang on.
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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby aesmith » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:06 pm

NYGman wrote:My understanding is that most cars today underestimate the speed by a few MPH.

Legally (in the UK) speedometers are supposed to be within +10% to 0% error, i.e. their allowed to over read by up to 10%, but must not under read at all. In practice this means that they are made to read a little high, so that even manufacturing tolerances won't result in reading low.

Personally I can't understand the reason for such a high tolerance for enforcement, especially at higher speeds. Someone doing 78 for example must be clearly aware he's speeding, especially as his speedo probably reads over 80 at that time. Maybe different at lower speeds, for example hitting 24 in a 20 limit could be a momentary slip.

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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby aesmith » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:09 pm

By the way, anyone notice Crabbie offering his notice and documents as example to follow in Council Tax disputes?

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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby NYGman » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:15 pm

aesmith wrote:
NYGman wrote:My understanding is that most cars today underestimate the speed by a few MPH.

Legally (in the UK) speedometers are supposed to be within +10% to 0% error, i.e. their allowed to over read by up to 10%, but must not under read at all. In practice this means that they are made to read a little high, so that even manufacturing tolerances won't result in reading low.

Personally I can't understand the reason for such a high tolerance for enforcement, especially at higher speeds. Someone doing 78 for example must be clearly aware he's speeding, especially as his speedo probably reads over 80 at that time. Maybe different at lower speeds, for example hitting 24 in a 20 limit could be a momentary slip.


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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby Footloose52 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:48 pm

As for £811 'costs' that will be the fine, victim costs and court costs.

Failing to name the driver now sees a fine of around £600 (!) as it is quite often used to hide from more serious offences. Victim surcharge is £85 so court costs will be around £125.

Had he entered a plea of not guilty then the prosecution would seek around £600 towards their costs as well.

He is going to have a heck of a shock when his insurance quote comes in at renewal, many insurers will refuse cover for a conviction for failing to furnish the drivers name.

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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby NYGman » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:12 pm

NYGman wrote:My understanding is that most cars today underestimate understate the speed by a few MPH. Especially if a German car, which requires the speedometer not to be reflecting a speed slower than indicated, and due to change in accuracy from tire wear, they have been reflecting slower speeds for a while. So if anything, the speed they were done for, is likely a few MPH below the actual speed they thought they were doing, The exception would be older cars, which may have less reliable equipment, or is riding on the wrong sized tires. Modern cars are slow, or at best bang on.



Edit to fix wong word which changed the meaning entirely...
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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby JimUk1 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:54 pm

aesmith wrote:
JimUk1 wrote:As far as I am aware, it's only 10%, and that is at the discretion of he police. I've nevered heard of 10% plus and additional limit.

Page 8 .. https://www.cambs.police.uk/roadsafety/ ... -roads.pdf
Also http://www.ukmotorists.com/speed%20enfo ... forces.asp
Also from the CPS who state the algorithm rather than just listing applicable thresholds for each limit ..
Speed Enforcement
The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) issued revised speed enforcement policy guidance in 2013. It suggests that enforcement will normally occur when a driver exceeds the speed limit by a particular margin. The particular margin is normally 10 per cent over the speed limit plus 2 mph. The guidance sets guidelines for when it would be appropriate to issue a fixed penalty notice or for the driver to attend a speed awareness course, and when it becomes appropriate to issue a summons. These are guidelines only and a police officer has discretion to act outside of them providing he acts fairly, consistently and proportionately.

Any yes, guidelines only and at the discretion of the Police. However although there are occasional reports of people being prosecuted for 33 or 34 mph, I've never seen an actual document supporting this, they all seem to be hearsay so could be misremembered, or turn out to be something like 33mph in a 20 limit.


Ah well, good to know I've being driving well under the discretionary limits for a long time :snicker:

But, it's stopped me getting fined or having my license revoked!

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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby longdog » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:46 pm

The threshold that you can be done for speeding is anything in excess of the limit. this 'they can't touch you for 10% over' is an urban myth. If they want to prosecute you for doing 30.0001mph in a 30 limit they can.
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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby Pottapaug1938 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:00 pm

longdog wrote:The threshold that you can be done for speeding is anything in excess of the limit. this 'they can't touch you for 10% over' is an urban myth. If they want to prosecute you for doing 30.0001mph in a 30 limit they can.


My father was stationed at Shaw Field, in Charleston, SC, during World War II. In those days, the local law enforcement characters got a cut of speeding fines; so you'd better believe that they would bag you if you exceeded the speed limit by any amount, however slight. If you wanted to fight the ticket, you had to try to get leave; and many airmen chose not to open that can of worms.
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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby noblepa » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:58 pm

longdog wrote:The threshold that you can be done for speeding is anything in excess of the limit. this 'they can't touch you for 10% over' is an urban myth. If they want to prosecute you for doing 30.0001mph in a 30 limit they can.


Once, back in the 1970's, when the speed limit was 55 mph in the US, I got stopped for doing about 68 on an interstate highway.

The Ohio Highway Patrol officer was very nice and we got to talking (after he wrote the ticket). He said that, in general, no self-respecting officer would stop you for less than 5 mph over the limit. Between 5 and 10 mph over the limit, it was at the officer's discretion. Over 10 mph over the limit and you were going to be stopped.

However, all those rules of thumb went out the window if there were extenuating circumstances, like erratic driving, indicating that you were drunk or high, or if he suspected that the car was stolen. In cases like that, he could and would stop you for 1 mph over the limit.

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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby rumpelstilzchen » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:25 pm

aesmith wrote:
On that basis I assume this hearing, noted as "to attend re disqualification", is to decide whether or not to disqualify under the totting up process. It's his chance to try and plead Exceptional Hardship as a basis to reduce or avoid disqualification.

I agree. The paperwork he previously posted appears to confirm that he has been convicted of both offences in his absence. That would add up to nine points. The fact that he has been ordered to appear would suggest that he already has at least three points. I can only assume that he does not realise that the prosecution is done and dusted.

Regarding prosecution guidelines..... I can confirm that about fifteen years ago I received an NIP from those lovely people at Northamptonshire Police for doing 33mph in a 30mph limit.
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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby NYGman » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:46 pm

Used to be a wonderful speed trap down in South Florida named Hacienda Village. We would always go very slow on that stretch of SR. 84.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacienda_Village

The community had a reputation for being a "speed trap." Steve Weller of the Fort Lauderdale Sun Sentinel stated that while Patton Village, Texas, an area known for a "speed trap," had reduced its monthly citation count from 1,100 to 400, "They tell me that, on a really cranky day, Hacienda Village speed trappers could issue that many tickets before lunch."[1] The Mayor of Hacienda Village, "Red" Crise, originally from New Jersey, appointed himself the Police Chief, Fire Chief and Judge Magistrate. Crise presided over some 18 police officers as well as over a nightly traffic court. He apparently gloried in his reputation as a difficult person, once saying "If you're a redheaded man, you're either a sissy or a son of a bitch. I'm not a sissy."

Hacienda Village was composed of 14 mobile homes and three junkyards. Residents were not taxed, as the town always had a healthy surplus of funds from traffic fines. The fines were a result of some fancy and obscure speed limit postings which were heavily enforced by highly efficient police officers.
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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby JimUk1 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:34 pm

longdog wrote:The threshold that you can be done for speeding is anything in excess of the limit. this 'they can't touch you for 10% over' is an urban myth. If they want to prosecute you for doing 30.0001mph in a 30 limit they can.


I would assume given the circumstances, the chance of success for securing a conviction at those decimal places is next to zero.



Pardon the pun.

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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby TheNewSaint » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:48 pm

NYGman wrote:Used to be a wonderful speed trap down in South Florida named Hacienda Village. We would always go very slow on that stretch of SR. 84.


Starke, on 301 between Gainesville and Jacksonville, is another infamous one.

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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby NYGman » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:07 am

TheNewSaint wrote:
NYGman wrote:Used to be a wonderful speed trap down in South Florida named Hacienda Village. We would always go very slow on that stretch of SR. 84.


Starke, on 301 between Gainesville and Jacksonville, is another infamous one.


Yep, on the way up to UF would slow for Stark and depending on route, the whole of Orlando, those troopers were the worst in the state. However nothing beat Hacienda.

I will say I made it from Ft. Lauderdale area to Gainesville in under 3 1/2 hours with no stops.
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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby aesmith » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:53 pm

You couldn't make it up ...
David Robinson > ‎Practical Lawful Dissent.

Good evening rebels....

How many others are experiencing a high pitched ringing in their head or ears, and if so where abouts are you in the country please?

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Re: "practical lawful dissent" fmotl advisory group

Postby NYGman » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:56 pm

aesmith wrote:You couldn't make it up ...
David Robinson > ‎Practical Lawful Dissent.

Good evening rebels....

How many others are experiencing a high pitched ringing in their head or ears, and if so where abouts are you in the country please?

Perhaps the ringing is tinnitus, that, or his head is like a bell, hard on the outside, nothing much on the inside
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