Inquiries concerning the history and current state of UK pseudolaw communities

[grixit]

Again, thank you everyone for your assistance - it is very, very much appreciated.

The traditional method of showing gratitude is to call the 20 closest working class pubs to you and prepay a tab for a Mr. Thirsty Beaver. He'll be around sometime in the next 2 years to use it.

[longdog]

What does seem to set the UK apart is I have not detected much in the way of government or court response to the schemes employed there. In the US gurus are regularly arrested and prosecuted. Why didn't that happen to Peter of England while he was running the WeReBank? I think you're correct, He Who Knows, that it seems officialdom and the media in the UK do not seem terribly interested.

Donald

I suspect at least some of the difference between UK and US / Canadian responses is down to opportunity. Most ordinary people in the UK have their income tax deducted by their employer and never have to 'file' their taxes.

Because of the lack of opportunity to 'protest' their income tax UK footlers have concentrated their non-payment on Council Tax. The 'system' does grind exceedingly slowly when it comes to non-payment of council tax but people can, and often do, end up jailed for wilful refusal to pay.

As for PoE and WeRe bank specifically I suppose the lack of action by TPTB is largely down to the lack of a victim willing to make an official complaint. The 'members' of the scheme/scam were clearly looking to receive FREE MONEY!!!1!! but no reasonable person acting as a judge or a jury is likely to find they had a genuine expectation of getting it. PoE himself often stated that the WeRe wouldn't pay out in real currency (although he did regularly say the opposite as well).

The financial institutions receiving the 'cheques' were unlikely to suffer any loss because the cheque clearing system in the UK is pretty efficient and the fake cheques were spotted and rejected almost immediately. The fact they were often accompanied by PoE's lengthy explanations of how they 'work' probably did more to prevent them even being deposited than anything else.

[HardyW]

I suspect at least some of the difference between UK and US / Canadian responses is down to opportunity. Most ordinary people in the UK have their income tax deducted by their employer and never have to 'file' their taxes.

Because of the lack of opportunity to 'protest' their income tax UK footlers have concentrated their non-payment on Council Tax. The 'system' does grind exceedingly slowly when it comes to non-payment of council tax but people can, and often do, end up jailed for wilful refusal to pay.

As for PoE and WeRe bank specifically I suppose the lack of action by TPTB is largely down to the lack of a victim willing to make an official complaint. The 'members' of the scheme/scam were clearly looking to receive FREE MONEY!!!1!! but no reasonable person acting as a judge or a jury is likely to find they had a genuine expectation of getting it. PoE himself often stated that the WeRe wouldn't pay out in real currency (although he did regularly say the opposite as well).

The financial institutions receiving the 'cheques' were unlikely to suffer any loss because the cheque clearing system in the UK is pretty efficient and the fake cheques were spotted and rejected almost immediately. The fact they were often accompanied by PoE's lengthy explanations of how they 'work' probably did more to prevent them even being deposited than anything else.

I agree with all of that. Re council tax refusers, there are many households that can't pay, rather than won't pay, faced with energy bills to pay and all other costs of living, there are fewer consequences if you overlook that bill for a considerable time. So for the authorities faced with a caseload comprising 1% footlers refusing to pay and 99% families in poverty unable to pay, the time need to separate the cases is probably deemed not worth it.

Same with WeRe cheques, I have no idea how many cheques were actually sent to pay bills, but I expect the vast majority simply accepted that they didn't work and those who persisted with the argument that they were valid were very few.

[...]
I do think most if not all of it did start here and then spread to Canada and then got adopted pretty much whole piece in the UK. The quoting of the UCC and US tax codes and the American Declaration of Independence being proof of that of that. ...

I do feel strange defending my footler UK compatriots, but Mr Dissent has made this claim at least three times, and has come up with no evidence of any British guru quoting "US tax codes and the American Declaration of Independence" as applying beyond the US. UCC is certainly quoted, and all gurus in all countries are prone to the conspiracy theory that government works the same all over the world which is allied to the Rothschild/deep state/owned by the vatican set of "beliefs". But that works both ways and those in UK/Canada and elsewhere get pretty inventive in localizing their theories.

[ArthurWankspittle]

Other things re the UK. We have a greater tolerance of the eccentric. We also have a court system that isn't reported much at the lower levels, doesn't create precedents and costs a lot of money to get into. I feel a combination of the court limitations further slows the impact of the average SovCit/FMOTL.

[DNetolitzky]

I'd suggest another difference between Canada and the UK. A lot of our Freemen-on-the-Land are essentially criminals, and employ pseudolaw as a mechanism to (purportedly) miracle away the consequences of misconduct like illegal firearms possession, drug trafficking and production, and even child sex offences.

In that way it's a pretty different host population, or more specifically, the Canadian host population is more likely to stimulate a stronger state reaction.

Casting the net even more broadly, I don't think the UK has had the kinds of pseudolaw-related violence which have occurred in Canada, the US, and now Germany. Hopefully it stays that way.

Donald

[AnOwlCalledSage]

Re council tax refusers, there are many households that can't pay, rather than won't pay, faced with energy bills to pay and all other costs of living, there are fewer consequences if you overlook that bill for a considerable time.

This is not quite the case. Failure to pay because of inability is treated sympathetically by the courts. There is also council tax relief, which means that people at the lower end of the income spectrum are not usually liable for the full amont. Any superficial perusal of our FMOTLders own postings of their demand letters and/or bailiff demands show that they are mostly liable for the full annual amount. They demonstrate this by posting their actual demand letters!!!

A wilful refusal to pay is dealt with differently and quite harshly, but not before a person has been afforded the opportunity to come up with a payment plan, which in some circumstances will almost certainly mean the full amount will never be repaid.

I am not saying that households that can't pay don't sometimes ignore or try to sweep things under the carpet hoping it will go away (been there, done that - I can also say in that in the same respect the laws about cutting off energy and water in the UK are pretty strong!)

Once the courts get involved there is a great differentiation between people with no money and wilful disgregard.

[longdog]

Any superficial perusal of our FMOTLders own postings of their demand letters and/or bailiff demands show that they are mostly liable for the full annual amount.

I wonder how many of these 'rebels' and 'freemen' would be entitled to council tax benefit and the single person discount but don't apply for it because it would be tantamount to admitting that they are liable to pay. I'm pretty sure that's the case with Dismal Dave. Pointlessly making yourself liable for a £1000 annual tax rather than £200 is exactly the sort of idiocy we've come to expect.

[AnOwlCalledSage]

I wonder how many of these 'rebels' and 'freemen' would be entitled to council tax benefit and the single person discount but don't apply for it because it would be tantamount to admitting that they are liable to pay. I'm pretty sure that's the case with Dismal Dave. Pointlessly making yourself liable for a £1000 annual tax rather than £200 is exactly the sort of idiocy we've come to expect.

You make a good point!

Anyone genuinely on disability benefit or Universal Credit would get a rebate. The actual amount depends on your council as it is a delegated power. Some councils in this financial year I know is as low as £25 a month. I know of others that have it as high as £50. However, it still wouldn't account for the over £1,000 per annum the FMOTLders claim they are liable for!

[notorial dissent]

I will have to say that I think there is a sizeable difference between the populations, not quite the right word but as close as I can come right now, between, the US, Canada, and UK, with the UK being the less likely to succumb to the worst aspects of the fantasy world. The UK doesn't seem to have as many proponents they seem to try harder and overachieve at their chosen lifestyle.

[ArthurWankspittle]

I will have to say that I think there is a sizeable difference between the populations, not quite the right word but as close as I can come right now, between, the US, Canada, and UK, with the UK being the less likely to succumb to the worst aspects of the fantasy world. The UK doesn't seem to have as many proponents they seem to try harder and overachieve at their chosen lifestyle.

Another thought - it is less easy in the UK to live "off grid" and without contact with government, local or national. The chances of anyone not being known to the state are virtually nil. Equally, the ability to survive without state help is a very rare commodity and likely totally absent the SovCit/FMOTL community. The average (mean? median?) UK SovCit/FMOTL gets some state help and would struggle to survive without it. The typical UK SovCit/FMOTL will try the methodology but will either fall back to the normal ways of society or get trampled by the law and courts, leaving them to spend the rest of their lives complaining while living on a state pension. e.g. Heather Shodbolt? bailed out by parents and not currently active much. Tom "NFA" Crawford no house, state pension and will spend the rest of his life telling anyone who will listen how he was wronged.